Suns more ripe for the picking than ever.

[NASHville]

, just let Suns fan be delusional and think they would've won game 5 last year then.

Whos holding the got damn ring.

Thats right. Step back and stfu.

Stop living in the past. That got damm ring don't mean a thing this year.

[ambchang]

Actually no, Parker is shooting a bad percentage outside of three feet.

So are Barbosa and Bell.

So the two designated shooters on the best (or close to the best) shooting team in the league are bad shooters? Great!

Barbosa and Bell are having bad years (see sta istics).

Bell is not having a particularly bad year, he is slightly below his career averages, and Barbosa is simply getting more attention from defenses and shooting more than he ever has. (see statistics).

You guys are claiming that Parker is not.

Are you telling me that Parker is a good shooter? Do you want to say that?

, do you want to say that he's a DECENT shooter?

Of course, Parker is a decent shooter, and our argument is that Parker is not a "terrible" shooter as you claimed. I would take "terrible" as significantly below average, just like to clear that up with you in case you are mixing up words again like you did with "erratic" and "bad".

btw - excuse me for bringing any MATH into the conversation.

Shooting 33% from three point range is the same shooting from 50% inside the arc, but thats too much for you to handle.

Since when had anybody argued that the expected yield of the two are different? It may have dawned on you as some sort of discovery of the day, but eFG% has been talked about for years. The problem is, we were NEVER talking about eFG%.

BTW, the two things are not "the same", they have the same expected yield, but the results are one have 4 rebounds out of every 6 shots, the other has 3 out of every 6 shots, which has an effect on the flow of the game, but that's too much for you to handle.

We can leave it their numbers as they are. All three of them are shooting poorly, yes?

No I can't, I have different standards as you. To me, Barbosa and Bell are both, at the least, decent shooters. Parker shoots the same % as them outside of 3 feet, therefore, Parker is a decent shooter.

I'll take my chances against Parker's jump shot. You take away his layups, and he's exposed as being completely one dimensional.

Oh my! We have a future coach of the year in the NBA! You know what, no NBA coach has EVER figured out that Parker cuts to the lane and finishes around the basket as good as any PG in the game today and to minimize his effectiveness, one needs to pack the lane. Oh wait, that was 2004, Parker has since improved his jumpshot and has made teams who packed in pay (see series vs. Cleveland). So according to you, his ability to breakdown the defense and passing out to teammates, and his defense are just not even dimensions.

While we are at it, I also just discovered that if you take away Nash's passing lane, dribbling and shooting, he is deemed useless on the court because of his terrible defense, and if you take away Duncan's low post game, high post game, passing, ability to setup teammates w/ picks and defense, he would turn into a terrible one-dimensional 3 point shooter.

Oh, one more, no NBA coach ever figured out that it is better to let a player shoot from the outside than letting him shoot layups all day. Thanks for the revelation, I am going to write a book about it, sell it to professional NBA teams and make millions.

The book will be called: "Secret to good defense: Let players shoot jumpshots rather than layups".

By all means, leave Barbosa and Bell open. If there are any Spurs coaches reading this, we'll trade. We'll leave Parker open is you leave either Barbosa or Bell open!!! Sound good?

Unlike the Suns, the Spurs can defend open shooters and cut off penetration. My mistake, I probably shouldn't talk about defense with you, these things hurt TV ratings.

[ambchang]

I disagree. The whole "Nash is to defense what Pauly Shore is to acting" mantra is just a fall-back position for Nash-haters when the inevitable comparisons to Stockton arise. Nash is not a great defender but he's certainly not atrocious. The Spurs are a defensive juggernaut. Throw Nash in the mix and your defense would take a slight dent but your (already stellar) offensive would go supernova. You'd be unstoppable.

Trading for Nash NOW would probably not be a smart move, I agree. Tony Parker is already one of the great point guards in the game and has plenty of time to grow. But throwing in "even if he were three years younger" is, as I said, asinine. The Spurs aren't exactly spring chickens either. A thirty year old Nash with TD, Manu etc. could sleepwalk through the finals.

I think what irritated me about the original post is that it signified a distinct lack of respect. When people like Bill Russel and Larry Bird go out of their way to say that Nash is someone who stands out to them over the past 50 years, and then to have fanboys chime in with Parker >>> Nash! Well, what can I say, as a Suns fan it obviously gets my goat.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
1) Nash of 3 years ago isn't any better than Nash of now. In fact, today's Nash > Nash of 3 years ago.
2) His defense is terrible, it's not because of Suns haters, it has always been bad, since his Mavs days. And getting lit up by Jacque Vaughn doesn't really speak well of your defense.

[Gordionot]

Unlike the Suns, the Spurs can defend open shooters and cut off penetration. My mistake, I probably shouldn't talk about defense with you, these things hurt TV ratings.

I don't think you're being fair here. As evidenced by the Jazz game and (to a lesser extent) the Spurs game the Suns are perfectly capable of playing quality defense; they tend to do it in spurts -- which admittedly is not enough -- but it's not as though they are incapable of making stops or that they lack gritty and effective defenders.

The biggest problem is D'Antoni. Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic here, but the fact that defense is being stressed by D'Antoni in after-game interviews and (more importantly) by management leads me to believe that the Suns are in the process of altering the "all offense, all the time" philosophy that has plagued them during the playoffs in previous seasons. Offense will always be the greatest strength of the Suns, but a healthy focus on defense could make all the difference. The Suns needn't lose their character, they just have to temper it slightly with a dose of reality.

Another thing that I think Spurs fans are overlooking: as you point out, defending the arc and cutting off penetration (as well as hacking Nash to death) have been the main defensive strategies by the Spurs against the Suns the past few seasons. Well, Grant Hill adds an entirely new dimension, namely the mid-range game -- he can create his own shot and take pressure of Nash.

And for all the talk about KT, I actually think Skinner is an improvement. Duncan's gonna get his anyway. Skinner is much quicker than KT and has tremendous shot-blocking ability. This affects not only Duncan but Parker and Manu as well.

[Cry Havoc]

And for all the talk about KT, I actually think Skinner is an improvement. Duncan's gonna get his anyway. Skinner is much quicker than KT and has tremendous shot-blocking ability. This affects not only Duncan but Parker and Manu as well.

I just had to laugh at this. Sorry, but did you watch the last game? Duncan ripped Skinner's face off and stuffed it in his jersey, handed Skinner a mirror afterwards, and then dropped in a bank shot and got fouled. Simultaneously.

[Gordionot]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
1) Nash of 3 years ago isn't any better than Nash of now. In fact, today's Nash > Nash of 3 years ago.

This is true, but I was referring specifically to longevity.

His defense is terrible, it's not because of Suns haters, it has always been bad, since his Mavs days. And getting lit up by Jacque Vaughn doesn't really speak well of your defense.

His defense has improved steadily over the years. Like I said, not great, but not terrible either: he leads the league in charges, he's willing to put his scrawny body on the line against everyone from Yao to Shaq, he's surprisingly wily at times (which I guess shouldn't be surprising), he snags a bizarre number of rebounds for someone his size, he puts in the effort. Again, not trying to suggest he's a great defender, but he gets the job done.

There was an interesting interview (in GQ? I forget) in which the interviewer asked how he could improve his game. Defense obviously came up, being the only aspect of his game that actually needs improving (along with dunking He basically said that his coach and teammates prefer he devote most of his energy to coordinating the offense. Which makes sense. It's the hand he was dealt. There are lots of solid defenders on the Suns' squad. Let Nash work his magic on the other end of the court.

And btw, I DO think the comparisons to Stockton are unfair. Stockton only passed as well as Nash in the wildest of his dreams.

[ambchang]

[I]I don't think you're being fair here. As evidenced by the Jazz game and (to a lesser extent) the Spurs game the Suns are perfectly capable of playing quality defense; they tend to do it in spurts -- which admittedly is not enough -- but it's not as though they are incapable of making stops or that they lack gritty and effective defenders.

The biggest problem is D'Antoni. Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic here, but the fact that defense is being stressed by D'Antoni in after-game interviews and (more importantly) by management leads me to believe that the Suns are in the process of altering the "all offense, all the time" philosophy that has plagued them during the playoffs in previous seasons. Offense will always be the greatest strength of the Suns, but a healthy focus on defense could make all the difference. The Suns needn't lose their character, they just have to temper it slightly with a dose of reality.

Another thing that I think Spurs fans are overlooking: as you point out, defending the arc and cutting off penetration (as well as hacking Nash to death) have been the main defensive strategies by the Spurs against the Suns the past few seasons. Well, Grant Hill adds an entirely new dimension, namely the mid-range game -- he can create his own shot and take pressure of Nash.

And for all the talk about KT, I actually think Skinner is an improvement. Duncan's gonna get his anyway. Skinner is much quicker than KT and has tremendous shot-blocking ability. This affects not only Duncan but Parker and Manu as well.

I do acknowledge Suns are more than capable of playing defense, as witnessed by their decent defensive numbers at the start of both last and this season, it's just that by playing a short rotation, it is extremely difficult for the team to excel at both ends of the court for the whole season, especially when you have to cover for Nash and Stoudemire (more on this later). When push comes to shove, we all know which side of the court D'antoni will choose to concentrate on.

Speaking of Stoudemire, he is probably the worst defender in the league given his athleticism. I cannot understand it, he is strong, quick, coordinated, has great hands, can jump out of the gym, and yet he cannot understand a thing about boxing out, defensive positions and rotations. It is frustrating watching him play, as he has all the physical tools to be the next David Robinson on defense, but he just turned out to be a tool on defense.

Skinner is full of enthusiasm, and I would love to have some guy like that on the Spurs (man, I would trade Cisco for him in a heartbeat), but he is not as physical with Duncan, and we have known the only way to slow down Duncan is to rough him up, make him expend energy and tire him out as the series goes on. Skinner just isn't that good at that part of the game.

Finally, I agree with the Hill assessment, his mid-range game will present problems for the Spurs, as the whole Spurs defense is geared towards making other teams make long 2s (reason why the Mavs pose such a problem for the Spurs). Stoudemire and Nash both have a good midrange shot (great for Nash), and by adding Hill, there will be 3 players that the Spurs would have to adjust their defense around. However, all three are also terrible defenders, and the Spurs will get theirs. look at last year's playoffs, outside of Games 2 and 5, the Spurs have scored an unusually high number of points (Game 2 the Spurs couldn't throw the ball in the ocean, Game 5, the absence of Stoudemire took a huge part of that in-between game of the Suns, and forced both teams into a defensive battle).

[vicphoenix]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
1) Nash of 3 years ago isn't any better than Nash of now. In fact, today's Nash > Nash of 3 years ago.
2) His defense is terrible, it's not because of Suns haters, it has always been bad, since his Mavs days. And getting lit up by Jacque Vaughn doesn't really speak well of your defense.

I don't think you were watching the game. Nash was playing against Bowen on defense the whole game. How many points did Bowen score? I am not saying Nash is a great defender, but he unfairly gets accused of poor defense way too often. Its like Nash is the only superstar in the NBA who gets scrutinized on the apparent lack of defense. How about all the times when he totally outplays the opposing point guard?

[ambchang]

This is true, but I was referring specifically to longevity.

His defense has improved steadily over the years. Like I said, not great, but not terrible either: he leads the league in charges, he's willing to put his scrawny body on the line against everyone from Yao to Shaq, he's surprisingly wily at times (which I guess shouldn't be surprising), he snags a bizarre number of rebounds for someone his size, he puts in the effort. Again, not trying to suggest he's a great defender, but he gets the job done.

There was an interesting interview (in GQ? I forget) in which the interviewer asked how he could improve his game. Defense obviously came up, being the only aspect of his game that actually needs improving (along with dunking He basically said that his coach and teammates prefer he devote most of his energy to coordinating the offense. Which makes sense. It's the hand he was dealt. There are lots of solid defenders on the Suns' squad. Let Nash work his magic on the other end of the court.

And btw, I DO think the comparisons to Stockton are unfair. Stockton only passed as well as Nash in the wildest of his dreams.

Nash getting charges was actually a dangerous thing to see. While I applaud his courage in sacrificing his body for the good of the team, most of those charges were actually blocking fouls. He rotates late, gets hit and falls down, there are many times where I legitimately thought someone would be injured in the play.

Stockton was a fantastic passer, he may have been more of a half-court passer, and his numbers were a result of the system, but there is no denying that Stockton is one of the top 5 passers in the history of the league. I think Nash's passing is more similar to Magic's. Very creative, out of nowhere passes, and very often on the move. I have to admit it is a thing of absolute beauty.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I do acknowledge Suns are more than capable of playing defense, as witnessed by their decent defensive numbers at the start of both last and this season, it's just that by playing a short rotation, it is extremely difficult for the team to excel at both ends of the court for the whole season, especially when you have to cover for Nash and Stoudemire (more on this later). When push comes to shove, we all know which side of the court D'antoni will choose to concentrate on.

Speaking of Stoudemire, he is probably the worst defender in the league given his athleticism. I cannot understand it, he is strong, quick, coordinated, has great hands, can jump out of the gym, and yet he cannot understand a thing about boxing out, defensive positions and rotations. It is frustrating watching him play, as he has all the physical tools to be the next David Robinson on defense, but he just turned out to be a tool on defense.

Skinner is full of enthusiasm, and I would love to have some guy like that on the Spurs (man, I would trade Cisco for him in a heartbeat), but he is not as physical with Duncan, and we have known the only way to slow down Duncan is to rough him up, make him expend energy and tire him out as the series goes on. Skinner just isn't that good at that part of the game.

Finally, I agree with the Hill assessment, his mid-range game will present problems for the Spurs, as the whole Spurs defense is geared towards making other teams make long 2s (reason why the Mavs pose such a problem for the Spurs). Stoudemire and Nash both have a good midrange shot (great for Nash), and by adding Hill, there will be 3 players that the Spurs would have to adjust their defense around. However, all three are also terrible defenders, and the Spurs will get theirs. look at last year's playoffs, outside of Games 2 and 5, the Spurs have scored an unusually high number of points (Game 2 the Spurs couldn't throw the ball in the ocean, Game 5, the absence of Stoudemire took a huge part of that in-between game of the Suns, and forced both teams into a defensive battle).

Totally agree with what you said about Amare. I mean he was getting absolutely raped by Duncan, and has been consistently abused throughout the season. O'Neal (both of them), Dwight Howard, Yao, Al Jefferson, Paul Millsap, Tyson Chandler, etc. have all abused him, especially on the boards.

And as bad as his defense has been, his rebounding is even worse. There's absolutely no excuse for a player his size with his ability to not be getting at least 10 per game, if not even more. He really needs to take a page out of Marion's book; despite being greatly undersized, Shawn plays with so much hustle that he racks up the boards.

But I'm not so sure this can just be totally attributed to laziness. Amare, while dumb as (read Seven Seconds or Less for insight on his intelligence, let's just say he's lucky as he's talented at basketball), doesn't seem to be your typical Zach Randolph, Antoine Walker, Ricky Davis loafer. He's in very good shape, and he always shows up to play in the postseason.

I really think that he's terrified about reinjuring his knee. He doesn't use that spin move that he was so great at in '04-'05, and never puts stress on his knees. This could be one of the reasons he has trouble rebounding and playing defense. While he's still a 20 ppg scorer, he shoots alot more jumpers, and you don't seem him attack the basket and elevate with the same fury he had pre-injury. It's really a shame to, because if he hadn't gotten injured he was clearly destined for the all time greats.

[ambchang]

I don't think you were watching the game. Nash was playing against Bowen on defense the whole game. How many points did Bowen score? I am not saying Nash is a great defender, but he unfairly gets accused of poor defense way too often. Its like Nash is the only superstar in the NBA who gets scrutinized on the apparent lack of defense. How about all the times when he totally outplays the opposing point guard?

Jacque Vaughn comment was tongue-in-cheek, probably should made it more apparent, because if I remember correctly, Vaughn still holds the record for opening the season with the most misses (something like 0-21) back in his Atlanta days.

BTW, putting Nash on Bowen was the other thing, Bowen is TERRIBLE on offense, I would say even worse than Nash on defense. He has added that ugly drive to his game and is using it more, but it kills me to see him dribble. I love him as a Spur as he is definitely one of the biggest reasons for the Spurs recent success, but man, I have seen 5 year olds dribble better than Bowen.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Nash getting charges was actually a dangerous thing to see. While I applaud his courage in sacrificing his body for the good of the team, most of those charges were actually blocking fouls. He rotates late, gets hit and falls down, there are many times where I legitimately thought someone would be injured in the play.

Stockton was a fantastic passer, he may have been more of a half-court passer, and his numbers were a result of the system, but there is no denying that Stockton is one of the top 5 passers in the history of the league. I think Nash's passing is more similar to Magic's. Very creative, out of nowhere passes, and very often on the move. I have to admit it is a thing of absolute beauty.

I remember last year after he had missed a handful of games with a nasty shoulder/back injury, the first game back he takes a very hard charge from Elton Brand. While the announcers rightfully praised his heart, sometimes he just has to learn how to preserve his body.

And one of the reasons why he gets alot of charges is IMO because of his size. When they see a guy as big as Brand hit a guy as little as Nash, it looks much worse than if the player had hit someone like Baron Davis or Deron Williams.

[Gordionot]

I just had to laugh at this. Sorry, but did you watch the last game? Duncan ripped Skinner's face off and stuffed it in his jersey, handed Skinner a mirror afterwards, and then dropped in a bank shot and got fouled. Simultaneously.

Well, he basically did the same thing to KT. Like I said, Duncan is going to get his any way you shake it. The best you can hope for is to occasionally discombobulate him. There's no one in the league that can stop Tim Duncan. He's arguably the best player PERIOD. He USES THE ING GLASS. Which is a rarity

But Skinner is speedy Gonzales compared to KT, and he has much better shot-blocking ability. So I stick by my original assessment that he's a step up.

[vicphoenix]

Jacque Vaughn comment was tongue-in-cheek, probably should made it more apparent, because if I remember correctly, Vaughn still holds the record for opening the season with the most misses (something like 0-21) back in his Atlanta days.

BTW, putting Nash on Bowen was the other thing, Bowen is TERRIBLE on offense, I would say even worse than Nash on defense. He has added that ugly drive to his game and is using it more, but it kills me to see him dribble. I love him as a Spur as he is definitely one of the biggest reasons for the Spurs recent success, but man, I have seen 5 year olds dribble better than Bowen.

I think you're underestimating Bowen's offensive abilities. He is a deadly shooter from the corner three. When Parker and Duncan were gone during the Lakers game last week, he put up 22 points. Nash had to be playing decent defense for Bowen not to score at all.

[ambchang]

I think you're underestimating Bowen's offensive abilities. He is a deadly shooter from the corner three. When Parker and Duncan were gone during the Lakers game last week, he put up 22 points. Nash had to be playing decent defense for Bowen not to score at all.

Hmm ... i would say it's almost impossible to underestimate Bowen's offensive abilities. Yes, he can nail the corner three, and that is it. He can't dribble, shoot off the drive (he has been adding that this year, but I would rather him not, he isn't even that good, or shoot anywhere else basically. Bowen has 4 games where he has scored zero points this season, this compares to 5 games in double figures, including the 22 and 23 pt games vs. the Lakers (Why is it always the Lakers he get these 20 point games? I would never understand why, it's not like the Lakers like to leave Bowen open more than other team does).

It really isn't that hard to make him a total non-factor, just don't double Duncan (which was what the Suns did in the 1st 3 quarters), don't pack the lanes to prevent Ginobili and/or Parker drives, and make the 3 pt shooters beat you.

Again, I love Bruce, but if Bruce was an offensive factor, he would have been multiple all-stars and a dream-teamer.

[Shred]

I'm judging by the fact this thread has gone 4 pages that the Suns are hardly worth a moment's thought from Spur fan.

[m33p0]

I just had to laugh at this. Sorry, but did you watch the last game? Duncan ripped Skinner's face off and stuffed it in his jersey, handed Skinner a mirror afterwards, and then dropped in a bank shot and got fouled. Simultaneously.

Well, he basically did the same thing to KT. Like I said, Duncan is going to get his any way you shake it. The best you can hope for is to occasionally discombobulate him. There's no one in the league that can stop Tim Duncan. He's arguably the best player PERIOD. He USES THE ING GLASS. Which is a rarity

But Skinner is speedy Gonzales compared to KT, and he has much better shot-blocking ability. So I stick by my original assessment that he's a step up.

[ambchang]

I'm judging by the fact this thread has gone 4 pages that the Suns are hardly worth a moment's thought from Spur fan.

I'm judging by the fact your post count has hit 489 that the Spurs are hardly worth a moment's thought from you.