Hollinger: New and improved Kidd trade is still risky

[GrandeDavid]

We can talk all we want and read the beat writers' beat offs. But only time will reveal the value of this trade. It could turn out that Kidd gets rejuvinated in Dallas, they start running more, chemistry gets strong and they get hot in the playoffs and make a run at the championship. Or they could flop. Who really knows...but I think that the fact that Dallas did not have to give up Stack to make this deal happen makes it easier to appreciate.

The playoffs this year will be legendary in depth. Its looking pretty wide open right now.

[clubalien]

in 1 season dallas just traded for the player spurs spent 5 years setting up to go after

dallas gets kidd
spurs get rasho

[The Franchise]

The Mavs we're a better team before this trade. I'm a Rockets fan who hates the Mavs,but i feel better about facing them with Kidd than with Harris.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

3 pages of a dumb argument later, and where are we?

Oh yes, the Mav's have developed all of their most important talent, just like the spurs did.... and they didnt have the luxury of two first overall picks.

Ok great, now, does anyone else still think that this trade has fundamentally ed the Mavericks for years to come? And i hope the spurs go after Diop, if not now than in FA. But, i honestly dont see how this helps the Mavericks, this team doesn't need a 35 year old point guard that can't score-- Jason Kidd is a good player as the focal point of the offense, when he gets to make his team a transition threat, but even in the height of his abilities, the spurs were able to keep JKidd off his game on the fast break, the Nets were forced to play a slow down half court game in 2003.

2008 Jason Kidd is slower, a worse shooter, less healthy, less durable, and less defensively capable. In 2003, there were games when Tony Parker seriously outplayed JKidd.... in 2007, Tony is getting close to his prime, he will easily get around Kidd in ways that Harris has made impossible in the past, and now when our slasher's go the rim they don't have Dallas's top shot blocker and post defender to deal with.

Eric Dampier will foul out within 10 minutes if he's guarding Duncan in the post, meaning Dallas is going to have to go small. I just don't think Dallas has the ability to win that game without a post up threat to counter Duncan-- we can play great inside out ball all day long, and Tony and Manu can wreak havoc in the paint.

How does Kidd make them better against Phoenix, LA? No idea.

[Findog]

You can pretty much sum up the arguments this way:

Trade makes Dallas better:

• Kidd has been dogging it in New Jersey and even so, still almost averages a triple-double. He will pick up his play even more in Dallas.
• In the playoffs you need to be able to execute in the half-court. For all of Devin's strengths, he is not the quarterback that Kidd is, and Dirk, Josh and Terry will all get better looks and will not have to create as much for themselves anymore. The Mavs have struggled with an over reliance on ISO play.
• I personally have always felt the mentally soft chokers thing was overblown and exaggerated, but I'll concede there's a sliver of truth to it. Whatever weaknesses that Dallas has had when it comes to mettle , heart and edge, Kidd addresses those things. For those of you saying Dallas lacked an "alpha dog," they have one now.
• DeSagana Diop is a backup center averaging 3 points, 5 rebound and 1 block in 17 minutes per game. This hurts Dallas' depth, but between Juwan Howard and the incoming Malik Allen, they can't possibly replace that? Who is to say they're done tweaking their roster?
• Harris' rep as a outstanding perimeter defender is a bit undeserved. He didn't exactly shut down Baron Davis in the playoffs last year, he didn't shut down Dwyane Wade in the Finals, and his presence hasn't stopped Steve Nash from doing whatever he wants against the Mavericks. Yes, the Mavs are going to have some mismatches not in their favor, but who guards Dirk if they play the Suns? Amare? Grant Hill? Who guards Dirk if they play the Lakers? Odom? Gasol?
• A lot is being made about how "washed up" and old Kidd is, and there's no question that his acquisition shortens their le window, but the Mavs don't have four les. Kidd was arguably the best player last summer for Team USA, and Harris is a promising young talent, but you can't put him in the same class as Paul, Deron, Baron, Nash, etc. I think most Mavs fans and even the front office feels like the bargain Miami made to win a le RIGHT ING NOW and pay the mortgage later ended up being worth it. Dirk is about to turn 30, Josh is about to be 28. The Spurs aren't going anywhere anytime soon, neither are the Lakers, and you have teams like Portland and Utah on the rise. It would be nice to have a perennial le contender, but they'll settle for just one.

Trade makes Dallas worse:

• With Gasol to the Lakers, Shaq to the Suns to join Amare, and with Duncan still in San Antonio, losing Diop leaves a big hole in the middle that they have yet to address. They solved one problem and potentially created a bigger one.
• Harris and Diop together are vital pieces when it comes to matching up with San Antonio, who is likely to be the biggest obstacle for any team seeking to make it out of the West. Dallas is the only team besides Shaq/Kobe and Malone/Stockton to send Tim Duncan home, and some of those X's and O's advantages have been mitigated.
• Kidd's acquisition makes it tougher for Dallas to land another interior big that they'll need in the postseason
• Harris is probably better suited to defend the quicker guards Dallas likely will see in the playoffs like Paul, Nash, Iverson, Parker, D. Williams, etc.
• This moves reeks of desperation in response to the Suns and Lakers acquistions without enough thought to the long-term management of their roster

I was against it, but given the almost certain chemistry problems that would ensue if they were to call it off, they HAVE to go through with it now. The front office and Cuban have repeatedly said they were happy with the team and wanted to give it another shot, and that Harris was their PG. They've just publicly contradicted that stance, and Dirk, Terry and Stackhouse have all reacted with glee to the news of Kidd's acquisition and in a way thrown Devin under the bus.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

You can pretty much sum up the arguments this way:

Trade makes Dallas better:

• Kidd has been dogging it in New Jersey and even so, still almost averages a triple-double. He will pick up his play even more in Dallas.
• In the playoffs you need to be able to execute in the half-court. For all of Devin's strengths, he is not the quarterback that Kidd is, and Dirk, Josh and Terry will all get better looks and will not have to create as much for themselves anymore. The Mavs have struggled with an over reliance on ISO play.
• I personally have always felt the mentally soft chokers thing was overblown and exaggerated, but I'll concede there's a sliver of truth to it. Whatever weaknesses that Dallas has had when it comes to mettle , heart and edge, Kidd addresses those things. For those of you saying Dallas lacked an "alpha dog," they have one now.
• DeSagana Diop is a backup center averaging 3 points, 5 rebound and 1 block in 17 minutes per game. This hurts Dallas' depth, but between Juwan Howard and the incoming Malik Allen, they can't possibly replace that? Who is to say they're done tweaking their roster?
• Harris' rep as a outstanding perimeter defender is a bit undeserved. He didn't exactly shut down Baron Davis in the playoffs last year, he didn't shut down Dwyane Wade in the Finals, and his presence hasn't stopped Steve Nash from doing whatever he wants against the Mavericks. Yes, the Mavs are going to have some mismatches not in their favor, but who guards Dirk if they play the Suns? Amare? Grant Hill? Who guards Dirk if they play the Lakers? Odom? Gasol?
• A lot is being made about how "washed up" and old Kidd is, and there's no question that his acquisition shortens their le window, but the Mavs don't have four les. Kidd was arguably the best player last summer for Team USA, and Harris is a promising young talent, but you can't put him in the same class as Paul, Deron, Baron, Nash, etc. I think most Mavs fans and even the front office feels like the bargain Miami made to win a le RIGHT ING NOW and pay the mortgage later ended up being worth it. Dirk is about to turn 30, Josh is about to be 28. The Spurs aren't going anywhere anytime soon, neither are the Lakers, and you have teams like Portland and Utah on the rise. It would be nice to have a perennial le contender, but they'll settle for just one.

Trade makes Dallas worse:

• With Gasol to the Lakers, Shaq to the Suns to join Amare, and with Duncan still in San Antonio, losing Diop leaves a big hole in the middle that they have yet to address. They solved one problem and potentially created a bigger one.
• Harris and Diop together are vital pieces when it comes to matching up with San Antonio, who is likely to be the biggest obstacle for any team seeking to make it out of the West. Dallas is the only team besides Shaq/Kobe and Malone/Stockton to send Tim Duncan home, and some of those X's and O's advantages have been mitigated.
• Kidd's acquisition makes it tougher for Dallas to land another interior big that they'll need in the postseason
• Harris is probably better suited to defend the quicker guards Dallas likely will see in the playoffs like Paul, Nash, Iverson, Parker, D. Williams, etc.
• This moves reeks of desperation in response to the Suns and Lakers acquistions without enough thought to the long-term management of their roster

I was against it, but given the almost certain chemistry problems that would ensue if they were to call it off, they HAVE to go through with it now. The front office and Cuban have repeatedly said they were happy with the team and wanted to give it another shot, and that Harris was their PG. They've just publicly contradicted that stance, and Dirk, Terry and Stackhouse have all reacted with glee to the news of Kidd's acquisition and in a way thrown Devin under the bus.

Did my old buddy Admiral reincarnate as a Mavs fan?










Question.

[Findog]

Did my old buddy Admiral reincarnate as a Mavs fan?










Question.

Who is the Admiral? I assume you're referring to a poster here and not DRob.

[TDMVPDPOY]

jason kidd is overrated

his triple doubles, mean nothing if they are loss games

and for his defense? wtf has he ever shut down?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Who is the Admiral? I assume you're referring to a poster here and not DRob.

Admiral was a very good poster here a few years back who put a lot of thought into his posts much like you do.

[Findog]

Admiral was a very good poster here a few years back who put a lot of thought into his posts much like you do.

Thanks for the compliments.

[duncan228]

Admiral was a very good poster here a few years back who put a lot of thought into his posts much like you do.

Findog can articulate with the best of them.
He's by far my favorite Mavs fan on the board.

(No offense meant to other Mavs fans. )

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I used to value Ghost Writer's opinion, but he seems like a less funny Sequ in this thread

[Findog]

Findog can articulate with the best of them.
He's by far my favorite Mavs fan on the board.

(No offense meant to other Mavs fans. )

thanks. you and ed are among my fave spurs posters as well.

[The Truth #6]

Hollinger makes solid arguments. In this article he used facts, like always, but he also pointed to potential intangibles in coming to his conclusion.

The great irony is that with Dallas' trade and Phoenix's trade, their window just got a lot smaller. Though the Spurs are still old, I think their window is now larger than either Dallas or Phoenix. This year will be tough for everyone in the West, but the Spurs chances for the next few years just got better with Phoenix and Dallas going all in.

If the Spurs can add another piece in a trade this year and not lose Ian and Splitter we'll be doing pretty well looking ahead to next year.

[Findog]

One other point I'd like to add: Harris has been injury-prone and fragile so far during his career, while Kidd has been pretty durable. And there's no question that this team offensively was lost the past two weeks without Harris. I don't think they wanted to hang their le hopes on his continued availability every spring.

The other thing in favor of making this trade despite having to give up a useful big like Diop is this: Despite being one of the elite teams in the League the past several years, the annual 60+ wins and so forth, the last two playoff exits were pretty bitter pills to swallow. And the mentally soft chokers talk was always exaggerated, because these guys swallowed that disappointment last year and curbstomped the League for 6 months. Of course that accomplished was rendered hollow in Oakland, but they didn't sit around and feel sorry for themselves last year, they went to work. And then the Warrior series happened and they had to go throw the exact same process all over again.

Winning teams tend to be happy teams, but having to hear those same questions from reporters all the time, day after day, getting belittled, disrespected and dismissed, there was an atmosphere of joyless negativity that surrounded the team. And I think bringing in Kidd helps fix that too: it will generate some excitement, not just for the fans but for the other players as well, and it'll help make basketball fun again. Our chemistry wasn't all that great before this trade proposal flared up, and it would've been in the toilet if it hadn't been consummated. Kidd is going to help the rest of our guys get jazzed up again about balling instead of dredging through the regular season knowing you won't be judged definitively until the playoffs.

[Findog]

Hollinger makes solid arguments. In this article he used facts, like always, but he also pointed to potential intangibles in coming to his conclusion.

The great irony is that with Dallas' trade and Phoenix's trade, their window just got a lot smaller. Though the Spurs are still old, I think their window is now larger than either Dallas or Phoenix. This year will be tough for everyone in the West, but the Spurs chances for the next few years just got better with Phoenix and Dallas going all in.

Well, Dallas and Phoenix both feel a desperation for that first championship that a franchise like San Antonio doesn't. The Spurs have gotten it done with this roster and have a very good chance to do it again. I wouldn't use the word complacency, because I know they want to put that can't repeat to bed, but comparing the Spurs to the Suns and Mavs is pretty much apples to oranges. I can't speak for the ownership or the front office personnel, but as a fan, I'm not greedy. I can accept that the Mavs will never be a dynasty like the Spurs, Lakers, Bulls or Celtics. And I've reached a point in my life where I don't live and die with my sports teams like I used to. That being said, I can't tell you how f'n sweet it would be to finally see the Mavs finish the climb from the dregs of the league to winning it all, and I'm sure the Suns franchise and their fans feel that desperation too. It's hard for me to laugh at how bad the Heat are right now, because I would be willing to make that bargain if it was us that had won that Finals. It's been a long time since the Spurs fans have had to feel that, so I wonder how many of you guys remember what it's like.

[Ghost Writer]

Dumbass Ghost gets it wrong again.

I don't think so, twit.

I said Josh Howard is the only good player that contributed to Dallas' success that the Mavs actually drafted.

I also said that while the Spurs got good via #1 picks in the lottery, the Mavs actually built their team through trades and free agent signings.

I have proven this if you read, re .

[gmartin02]

The bottom line is this: If the Spurs and/or Lakers are healthy for the playoffs, one of them (probably the Spurs - it will probably take the Lakers one more year to solidify the team chemistry, even though they have D Fish & Kobe that share 3 championship rings) will make it to the finals, not Dallas (or Phoenix).

Only one team has won the championship in recent memory without an established core that has played together at least a couple of years (Miami), and that was only due to the choking ("deer in the headlights") Mavs. No team in recent memory has won the championship without solid defense (which is one of the reasons why the Mavs probably choked) and Dallas still doesn't have that.

Dallas will not win this year and will decline as Kidd gets older, so indeed this was a trade made in desperation. (Also, Phoenix will also not win this year - Shaq is not the same as 3 years ago, and doesn't have a Zo in Phoenix to play in the 4th quarter to prevent "hack a Shaq", and Phoenix will decline even more quickly than Dallas with the "big $20 million out of shape" at center.)

[Holt's Cat]

Dallas' defense (which wasn't that bad, save for against the Warriors) took a hit with this deal.

[CaptainLate]

Josh Howard is the only contributer that the Mavs drafted.

And the Spurs could have had him. Which FO personnel screwed that pick up?