Free Agent: Andres Nocioni

[Big P]

We might get nocioni next year if he signs a one year deal with chicago and becomes unrestricted, otherwise no way we get him this year. I don't know why but my gut tells me te spurs will sign Primoz Brezec this off season.

Primoz has a player option for next year which I'm pretty sure he wont decline.

[Mr. Body]

The Bulls need post scoring more than they need to retain Nocioni. I'd expect him to get shipped for Zach Randolph or somebody in a package, depending on if they can figure out the BYC stuff. Keeping him means an expensive bench player at a position that looks stacked, although they think they can roll Tyrus Thomas to PF full time or something. The Bulls' interest in Collison makes little sense to me, since he's a hustle-type guy and they need a scorer. They already have Ben Wallace.

Nocioni is one of Chicago's great assets to move to get them to the WCF and beyond. They can't keep this team the way it is and think magically they'll move thru. Spencer Hawes might do it, but it'll take him 3 years.

[michaelwcho]

But true floor generals are still a scarce thing. How many point guards aren't just shooting guards in miniature (see Allen Iverson, Daniel Gibson, Earl Boykins etc)? After that, PF is still a difficult spot to fill (again because height limits the pool of candidates) but far easier than the Center position. Wing players are a dime a dozen...but they are the future of this league.

I think point guards have become a more prestigious position overall. It seems we have transitioned from a time where the PG's job was just to give the ball to Shaq, Duncan, or Olajuwon, to where the PG needs to be a penetrating scorer. Look at the success of Nash, Williams, Parker, B. Davis, Billups, with the new, pro-offense rules. Probably the Cavs' biggest issue is that their PG is a black hole, can't pentrate, can't score.

The problem with Iverson, Marbury, Francis is not that they are shoot-first; it's their horrible shooting percentage. If you would have replaced Iverson with Antonio Daniels, Denver would have probably beaten us in the 1st round. On the contrary, look at Parker and Nash, who shoot better than 50%. Of course, with Nash, we're talking a whole 'nother level of skills, too.

Watching the GS game, you certainly got the impression that a bunch of tough 6'8 guys who can shoot and handle could win it all. (and in essence that's what the Bulls were), but here we are, with two teams starring big PFs in the lane.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, you're absolutely right, Mike. The game has significantly changed recently. I'd also say Francis and Marbury's problems may stem from a lack of clear understanding when to distribute and when to score. Baron Davis is a similar-type point, but more actively gets his teammates involved. But replacing AI with AD and suggesting Denver might win is silly - can't go with you there.

But yes, the point guard has returned to some prominence. That's why a guy like Rodney Stuckey could get picked higher than he should this year - because he's a combo guard with scoring ability who can run the point.

There has also been another shift in the SF from a SG/SF to a SF/PF hybrid. With the advent of small ball, the importance of a SF who can play the blocks and rebound has increased. Look at Julian Wright and Jeff Green in this draft - they become more important. Their size is also important, to guard the stronger SFs like Anthony and LeBron or the taller perimeter stars like Dirk.

We're lucky we have one of the better young points in Parker, but we could definitely use a back-up. What we badly need is that big SF.

[Big P]

The Bulls need post scoring more than they need to retain Nocioni. I'd expect him to get shipped for Zach Randolph or somebody in a package, depending on if they can figure out the BYC stuff. Keeping him means an expensive bench player at a position that looks stacked, although they think they can roll Tyrus Thomas to PF full time or something. The Bulls' interest in Collison makes little sense to me, since he's a hustle-type guy and they need a scorer. They already have Ben Wallace.

Nocioni is one of Chicago's great assets to move to get them to the WCF and beyond. They can't keep this team the way it is and think magically they'll move thru. Spencer Hawes might do it, but it'll take him 3 years.

Paxson does not want to take players with questionable character, which Randolph definilty has a questionable charaacter, & the Bulls definitly arent going to pay an average of $15.5 mil over the next 4 years for a player like that. Taking Randolph would totally screw any kind of cap flexibility they have. The Bulls need a role player, not a superstar. Chris Wilcox is another player Chicago has interest in he is on a reasonable short contract & could be the type of player the Bulls are looking for. If Lewis bolts Seattle & it looks like he will, Seattle could offer Wilcox to the Bulls for a S&T of Nocioni, since the Sonics will have a void to fill at SF IF Lewis leaves.

[michaelwcho]

There has also been another shift in the SF from a SG/SF to a SF/PF hybrid. With the advent of small ball, the importance of a SF who can play the blocks and rebound has increased. Look at Julian Wright and Jeff Green in this draft - they become more important. Their size is also important, to guard the stronger SFs like Anthony and LeBron or the taller perimeter stars like Dirk.

We're lucky we have one of the better young points in Parker, but we could definitely use a back-up. What we badly need is that big SF.

I thought Daniels looked good a couple years ago playing for Seattle...anyways

Yeah, a big athletic SF would be great. Actually I think we have one--Horry--he's just too old

[diego]

it all depends on the bulls' interest in scola. i think either one could help us, though noc fills more needs for us.

also, as much as i like nocioni's syle, he is prone to mental lapses and im not sure if pop likes him as much as we do.

[ChumpDumper]

If Lewis bolts Seattle & it looks like he will, Seattle could offer Wilcox to the Bulls for a S&T of Nocioni, since the Sonics will have a void to fill at SF IF Lewis leaves.

Are they not going to draft a small forward?

[Bruno]

Nocioni won't be under contract with Bulls this summer : if they do a S&T with him, he must agree with the team and the contract. I don't see Nocioni going on a team like Seattle where he won't start and that isn't a contender.

If Bulls aren't ready to re-sign Nocioni, Spurs will be in a quite good position to get him. The problem is that Bulls will likely re-sign Nocioni.

[Big P]

Nocioni won't be under contract with Bulls this summer : if they do a S&T with him, he must agree with the team and the contract. I don't see Nocioni going on a team like Seattle where he won't start and that isn't a contender.

If Bulls aren't ready to re-sign Nocioni, Spurs will be in a quite good position to get him. The problem is that Bulls will likely re-sign Nocioni.

He might not technically be under contract, but he is restricted, so Chicago will have a say if he stays or goes.

He could possibly start in Seattle depending on if they get Durant & how they play him, ie bring him along slowly or throw him into the frying pan.

Also about Nocioni starting, he isn't going to start in Chicago, so I dont think thats a main sticking point.

I dont see how you think the Spurs are in a good position to sign him. One, we only have the MLE to spend, & so do a bunch of other teams. Two, if it is a S&T, Chicago is going to have to want Scola, if they aren't interested in Scola, then we have no shot for a S&T for Nocioni, I wouldn't exactly call that a good position the Spurs are in.

[K-State Spur]

it all depends on the bulls' interest in scola. i think either one could help us, though noc fills more needs for us.

also, as much as i like nocioni's syle, he is prone to mental lapses and im not sure if pop likes him as much as we do.

yep, all things being equal - we have the rights to a post player which the bulls could really use and they have the rights to a wing player that we could really use.

however, given that noccioni is a proven NBA player and Scola is not means that all things aren't equal.

[Bruno]

I dont see how you think the Spurs are in a good position to sign him.

Can you read before posting.

[ArgSpursFan]

I´ve got the feelling that the Bulls are gonna try to keep him next year.At the same time spurs have Bruce and Finley next year also.
Unless Finley don´t use his player option and the bulls dont offer Nocioni a better deal Its gonna be hard.But If the Bulls think they can use Scola,them We have a deal again.So i would say its a matter of time and Players/teams Desitions.

[Big P]

Can you read before posting.

So your saying that the Spurs will be in a good position to sign him if the Bulls aren'tt ready to reup his contract?

So will 28 other teams.

I dont see how the Spurs have an advantage over other teams wanting Noc's services, besides 2 other Argentinians play here. Maybe you could clarify what puts us in a "good" position to sign him.

[Bruno]

So your saying that the Spurs will be in a good position to sign him if the Bulls aren'tt ready to reup his contract?

So will 28 other teams.

I dont see how the Spurs have an advantage over other teams wanting Noc's services, besides 2 other Argentinians play here. Maybe you could clarify what puts us in a "good" position to sign him.

Spurs are in a good position because :
- Manu and Oberto.
- Spurs are contenders. Nocioni next contract will likely be his last nba contract, I odn't think he wants to play with a crappy team.
- Playtime. Nocioni won't have troubles to get playtime with Spurs.

Two things about the restricted free agency process :

1) Negociations didn't start between teams and Bulls. They start between teams and Nocioni. It won't be Bulls who will choose where Nocioni will go. I don't see Nocioni saying to Bulls "you can S&T me everywhere". He should say "I would like to play for team X, can you work on a S&T with them".

2) If Bulls aren't interested in Scola + incentives for Nocioni and even if Spurs have only the MLE, they can do an offer not easy to match for Bulls if they don't want to keep Nocioni. Signing Bonus, Contract frontloaded and trade kicker can turn a MLE contract into a contract that Bulls won't match.


All these things are quite moot because Nocioni has already said that he wants to stay with Bulls and I don't see why Bulls won't keep him.

[Ariel]

So your saying that the Spurs will be in a good position to sign him if the Bulls aren'tt ready to reup his contract?

So will 28 other teams.

I dont see how the Spurs have an advantage over other teams wanting Noc's services, besides 2 other Argentinians play here. Maybe you could clarify what puts us in a "good" position to sign him.

Provided Nocioni doesn't get offers much higher than the MLE, I think the Spurs would have a decent shot at him. For starters, even if Chicago signs him, eventually they'll have to deal him due to the SF/PF logjam. And, considering he's a RFA, they do have a say in his decision, but lets remember so does he. Andrés can't go wherever he wants as Chicago can match and force him to stay, but they can't send him wherever they want either as he has to sign the offer sheet in the first place.

So, if he were determined enough to sign for the Spurs (and money being -about- the same, knowing Chapu I'd bet my life on the fact that he'd choose to play for the Spurs over anyone else), he could force the Bulls to enter negotiations with the Spurs by making it known that he'll either sign with them or not at all, which would diminish the Bulls bargaining power. Of course his power isn't absolute as failure to sign a contract would tie him with the Bulls for another year, which they positively know is not in his best interest.

However, if he makes the Bulls feel he's serious and that there is a real chance of losing him for nothing in the near future, it could lower their demands just enough that they may be inclined to take a reasonable offer instead of the best one available (and I don't doubt they'll receive better offers than whatever the Spurs can put together). Beware, the key word here is reasonable: Paxson isn't stupid and he won't be toyed with, so if he feels he's getting screwed, he'll simply make sure everyone else's plans gets screwed as well. But if everyone is seriously interested, perhaps something could be arranged.

So, though this is admittedly not the most likely of scenarios as it is contingent on far too many uncertainties, I still think it's a plausible one. And one that I'll certainly be hoping for.

[Mr. Body]

I don't see any way the Bulls won't be interested in Scola. The question is what they think a proper price might be.

[david ruffin]

hola,(write in spanish)en primer lugar me gustaria saber si ya esta confirmado que ¨chapu¨ya es agente libre,y segundo,los spurs necesitan a un jugador como andres?y si asi fuera,a que jugador se lo dejaria fuera del equipo? demas esta decir la garra.las ganas de ganar en cada partido,el sudor q el chapu le pone en cada bola que disputa,pero hay muchas preguntas aun sin respuestas,pero si a mi me preguntan,que venga.estoy seguro que seria un jugador totalmente protagonista!!

[Big P]

The bottom line is, Chicago can & probably will match any reasonable contract. Like I said earlier, the question is what does Chicago think is reasonable. I'm pretty sure they would think a MLE contract is reasonable & that is the only money we have to offer him for a contract. Now 2 things can happen, he can sign it & Chicago can match & keep him, or Chicago decides not to match & will try to do a S&T for Noc. Sure Chicago might be interested in Scola, but there are a couple of big question marks, like will he be able to actually play in the NBA next year & is it worth giving up Nocioni for Scola.

As far as a signing bonus goes, I'm not sure what the rule is or even if there is such a thing as a signing bonus, but I do know that Chicago can give him %10 raises on his contract where other teams can only offer %8 or %8.5 & Chicago can give him a 6 year deal where other teams can only sign him to a 5 year deal.

Like you said, we could frontload the contract, but since we are talking about a MLE contract, the diffence wouldn't be that much & in fact a frontloaded contract could help Chicago with future cap room, the Bulls frontloaded Ben Wallaces & Hinrichs deals.

Sure he wants to win, but if some team like the Bobcats or Atlanta or Orlando offered him a contract with a salary starting between $7-8 mil a year, I'm pretty sure he would take the extra $3 mil as opposed to signing with someone for the MLE, afterall it probably will be his last contract like you said.

I want Nocioni here as bad as you do, I'm just saying that alot of things will have to go our way in order to get a deal done.

[Bruno]

You still hasn't understood my first post.
Please re-read my post, I've never said that Spurs haver a good chance to get Nocioni.

My last try to explain to you what I've said. If you still don't understand, I give up.

Bulls will have two choices with Nocioni :
- Choice A : they like him and decide to re-sign him.
- Choice B : they decide not to re-sign him and use him as an asset to get something for him via RFA.

IF Bulls choice is A, Spurs have almost no chance to get Nocioni. Let's say 1%.

IF Bulls choice is B, Spurs have a good chance to get Nocioni. Let's say 20%.

IF Bulls choice is B and Spurs try to get him by using the MLE on him, Bulls can match but given that they have decided not to re-sign him, it will be to trade him later. Spurs offer can use some CBA tricks (trade kicker, front loaded, signing bonus) to make less interesting a future trade made by Bulls. If trading Nocioni become less interesting, Bulls will less likely match.

Bulls choice will likely be choice A. Let's say Bulls will made choice A at 90%. So Spurs chances to get Nocioni will be around 3%.

[mountainballer]

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/san_antonio.htm

Do some reading.

sorry sir.
thanks that you immediatly reacted to my imprecisely statement, when I mentioned that Horry (who might retire) and Ely (who won't be resigned) combine for 6.6 million $ this year, when they in fact combine for 6.623615 million.
it was a thought, what kind of money the FO might be willing to invest in a player, who will likely play twice the minutes the two mentioned players currently combine for.
see, that's why I cautiously mentioned, that I hope this example is understandable.
obviously it wasn't, so I have to offer my apologies to you AH, I won't try again to confuse you with something like a sign and trade scenario (as decribet in post #53).
my bad.

[Big P]

Bruno, we are having a discussion, putting rollseyes smileys is a little childish, there is a little bit of a language barrier, sorry about that.

When you said quote:

"If Bulls aren't ready to re-sign Nocioni, Spurs will be in a quite good position to get him. The problem is that Bulls will likely re-sign Nocioni."

Thats doesn't look like the Spurs are in a good position to sign him.

Then you said quote:

"Bulls will have two choices with Nocioni :
- Choice A : they like him and decide to re-sign him.
- Choice B : they decide not to re-sign him and use him as an asset to get something for him via RFA.

IF Bulls choice is A, Spurs have almost no chance to get Nocioni. Let's say 1%.

IF Bulls choice is B, Spurs have a good chance to get Nocioni. Let's say 20%."

The Spurs having a %1 or %20, to me does not sound like the spurs are in a good position to sign him."


Then you said quote:

"Bulls choice will likely be choice A. Let's say Bulls will made choice A at 90%. So Spurs chances to get Nocioni will be around 3%."

Overall, I dont see how having a %3 chance means the Spurs are a good position to get Nocioni.

All that being said, I HOPE the Spurs get a chance to go after him. I personally think that he is our SF of the future & would be a perfect fit on this team.

[ducks]

Nocioni angry over withdrawal from Argentina

May 24, 2007
BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (Ticker) - First, the San Antonio Spurs duo of Manu Ginobili and Fabricio Oberto revealed they would not play for Argentina at the FIBA Americas Championship. They were followed by Walter Herrmann of the Charlotte Bobcats.

Now the South Americans have received a fourth blow ahead of the Olympic qualifying tournament in Las Vegas with a foot injury forcing Andres Nocioni of the Chicago Bulls to rule himself out.

Nocioni, a key man in the gold medal win at the Athens Olympics two years ago, made the announcement in a letter published on Argentina basketball's federation web site.

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"This (darn) sole (plantar) fasciitis I've been carrying for some months has not fully healed," he said.

Nocioni went on to say the Bulls medical staff decided he should immobilize his right foot for up to seven weeks.

"I cannot explain how angry I am," Nocioni said. "Since making my debut in the national team, I have never been absent from any nomination and I did not want to be absent now.

"So, that's what I said to (Argentina coach Sergio) Hernandez and anyone else who asked me about this. Unfortunately, this treacherous injury was worse."

Argentina's star-studded group in Athens three years ago looked like a team that might dominate international compe ion for several years, but it hasn't proved to be the case.

An Argentina B team competed at the FIBA Americas Championship in 2005 with the country, by virtue of the Olympic le, having already booked a place at the FIBA World Championship.

Then in Japan last summer, the bulk of the Olympic team gathered again and came within one Nocioni 3-pointer of playing for the world le.

Nocioni's shot from the right corner in the last seconds of the semifinal against Spain bounced off the rim, and the Spanish advanced to the le game where they destroyed Greece.

Argentina lost to the United States in the bronze medal game.

Now the national team will do well just to make it to Beijing.

"I wanted to send these lines to you because I don't want to be involved in any speculation, as during this process too many words have been badly used," Nocioni said.

"Trust me - if I haven't had this injury, I would have joined you as always, wearing the national shirt proudly."

Only the top two sides in Las Vegas will clinch automatic places in China.

Teams that finish third, fourth and fifth will still have a chance to make it to Beijing by taking part in the World Olympic Qualifying tournament a month before the Summer Games.

Ginobili did not want to miss the event, and made it clear that advice from the Spurs that he should skip the event did impact his decision.

As for Argentina's chances, this team will still have star quality with power forward Luis Scola the undisputed leader of the team, and Unicaja Malaga playmaker Pepe Sanchez, a veteran for the national side.

They will be supported by Scola's Tau Ceramica teammate, point guard Pablo Prigioni, and longtime national team center Ruben Wolkowisky of BC Khimki and Detroit Pistons guard Carlos Delfino. But a unit without Ginobili, Nocioni, Oberto and Herrmann does not look nearly as formidable.

Nocioni is still upbeat about Argentina's chances.

"Beyond the pain of being absent, I know Sergio and all the other fellas will achieve the goal and we'll be defending what we achieved in Athens in one year's time," Nocioni said.

"The only thing I want is for you to reserve a place for me, because I've always been, I am and I will always be part of the national team."

[Bruno]

A Nocioni interview :
http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007.../01431274.html

The translated version (thanks to the realgm poster who did it) :
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=668796


Relaxed and happy due to being back in Argentina and starting his vacations ("I'm gonna go fishing and hunting the whole time", he said). That's how Andres Nocioni feels. Not even the tiredness of arriving just minutes ago to the country could swipe the smile from Chapu's face. However, when he started talking about the injury, he looked troubled. "It has me worried. It's been 3 weeks without any basketball activity, wearing a boot, and when I take it out it still hurts. I'm cranky", he said about the plantar fascitis that made him skip 28 games in the NBA and opt out of the Preolympic tournament in Las Vegas.


-What do you think of your season and how much did the injury limit you?

The first three-four months were excellent, I felt good physically, with confidence. I was on top of my game, the numbers reflected that it was my best season, but then the injury came... It was a big setback. Against Detroit the pain was too intense and I sucked because of it.

-When did the injury appear and what's plan B if the boot doesn't heal it?.

It appeared during preseason, on my gluteus. Then it went all the way down to my hamstring. Then to my adductor. I realized that, because of the injury, I had changed my running style... then it came this fascitis that isn't like other ones. The ideal would have been if my fascia would have broken, like it happened to Scola. You get back to 100% in a month. This one affects the tendon, then bone. The solution is treatment and inactivity. If this doesn't work surgery is an option, but there is a big change of the injury coming back.

-Can't you pace yourself?. Manu seems to do it.

I can't, it's hard for me. I have to play well every game of the regular season to make it to the postseason with confidence. I don't know if Manu paces himself or if the coach does it.

-Can this injury affect your future contract negotiation?.

At first I got worried, I thought teams would doubt about signing me. But then I realized it's not an extremely serious injury, yet it's important, but I don't think think teams will have second thoughts because of it.

-Do you think that the Bulls (they have the right to match any other offer) will resign you?.

I really don't know. I'm very comfortable and happy in Chicago, and I know they want me, but I also know that they need a scoring PF to win a ring. They told me and I understand. We are all exposed to being traded or not signed back.

-The Bulls have always said that you're an example.

Yes, they value my game and my heart, but with heart alone they're not going to win a ring. If they have to trade me to get better, they will.

-Do you think the rest of the league values you, respects you?.

The other players don't like me much (laughs). But it's because they don't know me... I used to hate Leo Gutierrez (an Argentinean player) when I played against him and today we're friends. I think I know my role and I could be a good fit in any team.

-Would San Antonio or Cleveland suit you?.

I'd be extremely happy if those teams wanted me. But in San Antonio I would definitely have more barbecues (laughs).

[WalterBenitez]

Just to mention, Chapu guarded Lebron well, the kid got mad because of his phisical game