At the risk of suffering...

[Oh, Gee!!]

I think Asian immigrants -- from the Vietnamese boat people to Chinese political refugees -- are an excellent example of how a culture dropped itself into a strange land, overcame racism and bigotry, and pulled themselves up by the bootstraps.

I do believe the big difference here is that blacks somehow hold me responsible -- because I'm white -- for the oppression of their ancestors and they think I owe them something for the trouble my ancestors may or may not have caused their ancestors.

The Vietnamese, many of whom suffered through a war involving our troops in their country, came here -- dealt with the racism directed at them -- and have come much farther than blacks, in the basicallly the same amount of time.

came here and brought here are two different things

[Yonivore]

yeah, which is why said every person accused is innocent according to our legal system.

You implied they should be treated as such.

does that group include Al Sharpton? Cause you're making a big stink for nothing if that's the case.

No, because he (as well as Jesse and the rest) advocated and actively engaged in a campaign to achieve something they knew was wrong. That's way beyond holding a belief in guilt and trying to squeeze guilt out of a non-crime.

[Yonivore]

came here and brought here are two different things

Name a black person alive today that was brought here.

Name a black person, alive today, that would rather live in the country of their ancestor's origin.

That argument gets less and less relevant every day. The fact of the matter is Americans -- of all races -- are better situated than almost any person in any other country in the world.

[Oh, Gee!!]

You implied they should be treated as such.

they should be treated as such by our legal system. Why does this not get through to you?

No, because he (as well as Jesse and the rest) advocated and actively engaged in a campaign to achieve something they knew was wrong. That's way beyond holding a belief in guilt and trying to squeeze guilt out of a non-crime.

They can advocate all they want so long as they are not jurors or judges hearing the case, which they weren't.

[Yonivore]

they should be treated as such by our legal system. Why does this not get through to you?

Okay, then murderers should be allowed to roam free until a verdict is rendered?

You're having a real hard time distinguishing between the law and the people, aren't you?

They can advocate all they want so long as they are not jurors or judges, which they weren't.

You'll note I'm not advocating Jesse or Al be fired because, well, their actions are what they do.

I was advocating the group of 88 and Nifong (who may well go to prison now) be fired because their actions went against what a reputable ins ution would want from their employees.

I don't care if they thought the lacrosse players were guilty which, at some point (unless they're stupid) that would have to know was not true, I care they used public ins utions and their reputations and positions in those public ins utions to try and leverage a guilty verdict against innocent people.

[Extra Stout]

I think Asian immigrants -- from the Vietnamese boat people to Chinese political refugees -- are an excellent example of how a culture dropped itself into a strange land, overcame racism and bigotry, and pulled themselves up by the bootstraps.

I do believe the big difference here is that blacks somehow hold me responsible -- because I'm white -- for the oppression of their ancestors and they think I owe them something for the trouble my ancestors may or may not have caused their ancestors.

The Vietnamese, many of whom suffered through a war involving our troops in their country, came here -- dealt with the racism directed at them -- and have come much farther than blacks, in the basicallly the same amount of time.

Immigrants are different from an existing population, because they represent the subset of a population that has the initiative and determination to emigrate.

One thing we could draw, though, is that the extended families of the Vietnamese are very strong, and create a social network that provides some resilience through adversity.

I notice in Mexican immigrants (legal ones anyway) that same determination, work ethic, commitment to education, and willingness to sacrifice so that their kids can do better. The difference is that those values don't always take with subsequent generations. They assimilate more readily than the Vietnamese do, but sometimes they assimilate into dysfunction.

[FromWayDowntown]

I care they used public ins utions and their reputations and positions in those public ins utions to try and leverage a guilty verdict against innocent people.

Show me any evidence that Duke University is a public ins ution.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Okay, then murderers should be allowed to roam free until a verdict is rendered?

if they can post bond, they sure can. That's how our legal system works.

You're having a real hard time distinguishing between the law and the people, aren't you?

not really. I think the Duke players probably did what they were accused of even though they weren't indicted. While there wasn't enough evidence to go forward with the case, I still think they are all guilty. You see, proof that I can seperate the legal from the personal.

[Yonivore]

Immigrants are different from an existing population, because they represent the subset of a population that has the initiative and determination to emigrate.

One thing we could draw, though, is that the extended families of the Vietnamese are very strong, and create a social network that provides some resilience through adversity.

I notice in Mexican immigrants (legal ones anyway) that same determination, work ethic, commitment to education, and willingness to sacrifice so that their kids can do better. The difference is that those values don't always take with subsequent generations. They assimilate more readily than the Vietnamese do, but sometimes they assimilate into dysfunction.

Point taken although, some might argue, the black community has treated itself as an immigrant population moving into "white" America while trying to maintain an unique iden y in their own communities.

In fact, some might argue they're doing this and intentionally failing to assimilate as would a true immigrant population.

As for Mexican immigrants; I agree, subsequent generations seem to be less inclined to assimilate than their predecessors.

Same for Arab Muslims.

I think it all boils down to a failure to assimilate and a desire to hoist one's own culture on those who previously occupied the geography. And, I think this is possible because blacks modelled this behavior for them by violently resisting assimilation (and not being called on it), demanding preferences (and getting them), demanding en lements (and getting them), and destroying their own culture (and blaming it on "white" America) in the process.

[Yonivore]

if they can post bond, they sure can. That's how our legal system works.

What about those denied bond?

not really. I think the Duke players probably did what they were accused of even though they weren't indicted.

Well, they were indicted.

While there wasn't enough evidence to go forward with the case, I still think they are all guilty. You see, proof that I can seperate the legal from the personal.

Also proof you're stupid. Particularly since there was irrefutable exculpatory evidence on most of the accused as well as irrefutable evidence the stripper was lying -- all of which became known early in the case...over a year ago.

[Oh, Gee!!]

What about those denied bond?

I guess they can't "roam free."

Well, they were indicted.

okay, my mistake. but the charges were dropped.

[Yonivore]

I guess they can't "roam free."

But if they're presumed innocent why aren't they allowed to "roam free?"

okay, my mistake. but the charges were dropped.

Over a year after they should have been.

[Oh, Gee!!]

But if they're presumed innocent why aren't they allowed to "roam free?"

because there are laws that provide for the denial of bond in some cir stances even though the accused is presumed innocent.

[Extra Stout]

Point taken although, some might argue, the black community has treated itself as an immigrant population moving into "white" America while trying to maintain an unique iden y in their own communities.

In fact, some might argue they're doing this and intentionally failing to assimilate as would a true immigrant population.

As for Mexican immigrants; I agree, subsequent generations seem to be less inclined to assimilate than their predecessors.

Same for Arab Muslims.

I think it all boils down to a failure to assimilate and a desire to hoist one's own culture on those who previously occupied the geography. And, I think this is possible because blacks modelled this behavior for them by violently resisting assimilation (and not being called on it), demanding preferences (and getting them), demanding en lements (and getting them), and destroying their own culture (and blaming it on "white" America) in the process.

The black community has a distinct culture from that of the white community, in part because the societies were kept separate for hundreds of years. I don't think that in and of itself is a problem; after all, there are hundreds if not thousands of distinct cultural communities even among whites in the U.S.

The problem is not that the culture is distinct in and of itself. Disdainful repudiation of any behavior seen as "white" is a problem. I do see that certain behaviors which are not unique to whites, but rather are shared by all successful cultures, and by successful people within cultures, are stigmatized as "white" by many blacks and rejected.

Historically, immigrant populations have assimilated into the general population at a glacial pace compared to what they do today. There was never a time when immigrants became proficient in English during their lifetimes -- it was always the children who picked it up. Spanish-speaking by Hispanics is next to nil by the third generation -- an extinguishment two to three generations sooner than previous immigrant groups (Germans, Italians, etc.). But, we have so many immigrants coming at once that we don't observe that.

Mexican immigrants actually assimilate more quickly than any other immigrant group ever has. The problem is that too often they are assimilating into the broken culture of the underclass, the values of which are less amenable to success than those of the third-world country from which their forbears came. That is the problem, not that they aren't assimilating quickly enough.

[Yonivore]

because there are laws that provide for the denial of bond in some cir stances even though the accused is presumed innocent.

Why are there laws that do that? I would think a presumptively innocent person should not be held against their will.

[Yonivore]

The black community has a distinct culture from that of the white community, in part because the societies were kept separate for hundreds of years. I don't think that in and of itself is a problem; after all, there are hundreds if not thousands of distinct cultural communities even among whites in the U.S.

The problem is not that the culture is distinct in and of itself. Disdainful repudiation of any behavior seen as "white" is a problem. I do see that certain behaviors which are not unique to whites, but rather are shared by all successful cultures, and by successful people within cultures, are stigmatized as "white" by many blacks and rejected.

Historically, immigrant populations have assimilated into the general population at a glacial pace compared to what they do today. There was never a time when immigrants became proficient in English during their lifetimes -- it was always the children who picked it up. Spanish-speaking by Hispanics is next to nil by the third generation -- an extinguishment two to three generations sooner than previous immigrant groups (Germans, Italians, etc.). But, we have so many immigrants coming at once that we don't observe that.

Mexican immigrants actually assimilate more quickly than any other immigrant group ever has. The problem is that too often they are assimilating into the broken culture of the underclass, the values of which are less amenable to success than those of the third-world country from which their forbears came. That is the problem, not that they aren't assimilating quickly enough.

Not much to argue with there. You're much more eloquent on the topic than I.

Good job.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Why are there laws that do that? I would think a presumptively innocent person should not be held against their will.

then write to your representative in your state legislature.

[Yonivore]

then write to your representative in your state legislature.

Oh, I know why there are laws to prevent certain alleged criminals from making bail. In fact, I'm in favor of them.

It's because, even though the law obligates the State to prove them guilty before punishing them, everyone involved presumes they're guilty and a danger to society.

There's no presumption of innocence on the part of the court when denying bail. In fact, they're stating they believe the offender is guilty and poses a risk.

[Jamtas#2]

That's partially why programs such as affirmative action were instated... to help level the playing field again.

But yes... if you could do that you would. Unfortunately it is not a pratical, feasible, or beneficial venture.

Look, I lived amongst the poorest of the poor, amongst theives, violence and drugs... my dad's salary was no more than $10,000 per year (during the late 80's and through the 90's) and he supported a family of five. You know what though?? Our family persevered without government assistance and managed to get a decent crack at life. Both of my siblings, like myself managed to graduate from college (all on scholarships) and attain 'higher' paying jobs. We now own our own homes... and are financially in a much better position now than we were when we grew up.... If my family managed to escape the grips of poverty, by the Grace of GOD; I'm sure others could too.

So many factors enter the fray though... we didn't have top of the line clothing, or Air Jordans, or the lastest Nintendo game (for that matter we never owned a game console), we didn't own new bikes (we built our own)... We didn't eat at restaurants every week or buy eccentricities for our vehicles or 'bling-bling', no one in our family had a vice that would hamper our budget, we always had a used car, and even had enough for an annual vaction to the Mexican Caribbean Riviera.... We worked hard at school and had fun at home... most importantly we didn't care what others said because we found support and confort in our family. That's all that mattered.

Bad parenting, and pitiful financial decisions greatly contribute to the reasons why the poor stay poor in today's society. Then again, those who are already 'well-off' don't even have to worry about that burden to begin with. So I rarely expect them to understand.

First I will commend you for the work ethic and morals you seem to have to have acheived what you have.
That being said, again there is no 100% way to classify any group. I think you would agree that there is more temptation among the lower class to steer towards crime than those who are better off financially than they are.

Think of an average guy who is married that stays faithful to his wife. Now think of someone who is famous and has women throwing themselves at him for one night stands married and remaining faithful. They could both have the same morals and values, but one has to face more temptation than the other and has a higher likelihood of "falling".

I think the same goes for financial and racial inequalities. There is more temptation due to the situations that the majority of them are in.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Oh, I know why there are laws to prevent certain alleged criminals from making bail. In fact, I'm in favor of them.

It's because, even though the law obligates the State to prove them guilty before punishing them, everyone involved presumes they're guilty and a danger to society.

There's no presumption of innocence on the part of the court when denying bail. In fact, they're stating they believe the offender is guilty and poses a risk.

the presumption of innocence is not suspended during a hearing to deny bail, nor is denial of bail evidence of guilt. the court does not comment on the defendant's guilt, but rather on whether the defendant is a flight risk or a danger to the community as you pointed out.

[Yonivore]

the presumption of innocence is not suspended during a hearing to deny bail.

Apparently it is when they decide to deny bail. Why, if they're presumed innocent, would they be a flight risk or a danger to the community, if released on bail?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Why, if they're presumed innocent, would they be a flight risk or a danger to the community, if released on bail?

because of the severity of the accusation, possible punishment, and criminal history of the accused.

[Yonivore]

because of the severity of the accusation, possible punishment, and criminal history of the accused.

But, he's presumed innocent!

[Oh, Gee!!]

yep.

[Yonivore]

yep.

You're an idiot.