Official Hurricane Katrina Thread

[2pac]

The main cemetaries you are thinking of are near north Canal St.

[2pac]

I would not be surprised if FEMA refuses to let them rebuild in New Orleans...

sometimes it's just best to admit that man can't beat mother nature. They have already set the precedent in the Houston area that it doesn't even take 3 strikes in a subsidence area.

New Orleans is BELOW SEA LEVEL. Once the water in New Orleans stabilizes it will be a bay off of Lake Ponchatrain...

Understand that these structures in New Orleans are going to be underwater for MONTHS. It is salt water, and they are going to be having high/low tides in New Orleans just like the ocean...every structure there...even the high rise hotels, office building etc. will have to be torn down...the re-bar used in the concrete of the foundations of all these structures will rust out and be structurally unstable...

why spend BILLIONS rebuilding it just so the same thing can happen again...

New Orleans as we know it just ceased to exist.

Thanks Captian Happy

[MannyIsGod]

I would not be surprised if FEMA refuses to let them rebuild in New Orleans...

sometimes it's just best to admit that man can't beat mother nature. They have already set the precedent in the Houston area that it doesn't even take 3 strikes in a subsidence area.

New Orleans is BELOW SEA LEVEL. Once the water in New Orleans stabilizes it will be a bay off of Lake Ponchatrain...

Understand that these structures in New Orleans are going to be underwater for MONTHS. It is salt water, and they are going to be having high/low tides in New Orleans just like the ocean...every structure there...even the high rise hotels, office building etc. will have to be torn down...the re-bar used in the concrete of the foundations of all these structures will rust out and be structurally unstable...

why spend BILLIONS rebuilding it just so the same thing can happen again...

New Orleans as we know it just ceased to exist.

I was just wondering what effect tidal action would have on buildings. I really do think you paint a likely picture.

[j-6]

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

11:06 A.M. Governor Blanco reports 700 people have been rescued since Monday afternoon, but that many more remain trapped.

11:01 A.M. - Break in 17th Street Canal Levee is now 200 feet wide and slowly flooding the City of New Orleans. Huge sand bags are being airlifted to try to stem the rush of water in that area.

[1369]

the re-bar used in the concrete of the foundations of all these structures will rust out and be structurally unstable....

Cosmic, I'll agree that buildings structural columns and such will require some replacement, but the rebar in the foundations is encased in concrete, and in some of the newer foundations, is most likely epoxy coated. I don't think that entire foundations will have to come out.

[travis2]

I would not be surprised if FEMA refuses to let them rebuild in New Orleans...

sometimes it's just best to admit that man can't beat mother nature. They have already set the precedent in the Houston area that it doesn't even take 3 strikes in a subsidence area.

New Orleans is BELOW SEA LEVEL. Once the water in New Orleans stabilizes it will be a bay off of Lake Ponchatrain...

Understand that these structures in New Orleans are going to be underwater for MONTHS. It is salt water, and they are going to be having high/low tides in New Orleans just like the ocean...every structure there...even the high rise hotels, office building etc. will have to be torn down...the re-bar used in the concrete of the foundations of all these structures will rust out and be structurally unstable...

why spend BILLIONS rebuilding it just so the same thing can happen again...

New Orleans as we know it just ceased to exist.

ummmm...how much is salt water? Sure, some Gulf water got pushed into Ponchartrain, I'm sure...but as a whole, Ponchartrain is fresh water.

[j-6]

CosmicCowboy and 2pac got me thinking...

What would you do so far as a rebuilding if you were the Louisiana reconstruction czar? Rebuild bigger and better with an eye for the future, or abandon the flooded area and start anew?

[CosmicCowboy]

Sorry guys. I graduated summa laude with a hybrid civil engineering/architecture degree.

Those buildings will all have to be condemned. Best case scenario as I see it is that they will be underwater for a minimum of three months and they will be structurally destroyed by then. Just the process of dynamiting high rises and hauling off the rubble will take years considering all the roads will have to be rebuilt. They might as well relocate the city to high ground and abandon that site.

[2pac]

http://www.nola.com/hurricane/katrin...005_a16a17.pdf

[SWC Bonfire]

Sorry guys. I graduated summa laude with a hybrid civil engineering/architecture degree.

Those buildings will all have to be condemned. Best case scenario as I see it is that they will be underwater for a minimum of three months and they will be structurally destroyed by then. Just the process of dynamiting high rises and hauling off the rubble will take years considering all the roads will have to be rebuilt. They might as well relocate the city to high ground and abandon that site.

CC, then you should know better - politics and tourism trump engineering concerns.

[1369]

Sorry guys. I graduated summa laude with a hybrid civil engineering/architecture degree.

Those buildings will all have to be condemned. Best case scenario as I see it is that they will be underwater for a minimum of three months and they will be structurally destroyed by then. Just the process of dynamiting high rises and hauling off the rubble will take years considering all the roads will have to be rebuilt. They might as well relocate the city to high ground and abandon that site.

We'll agree to disagree Cosmic, I've worked heavy industrial construction for over 15 years in areas of high caustic and salt water atmospheres, and I don't think that there will be as much demolition required as you do.

[MannyIsGod]

I get away from the land that is below sea level. It's just a losing situation in that area.

[CosmicCowboy]

Cosmic, I'll agree that buildings structural columns and such will require some replacement, but the rebar in the foundations is encased in concrete, and in some of the newer foundations, is most likely epoxy coated. I don't think that entire foundations will have to come out.

The concrete absorbs the salt water until it reaches a saturated moisture content. Even if the rebar was epoxy coated (which it probably wasn't) It will have nicks, scratches, cuts, etc. that will oxidize. Steel expands as it oxidizes and the damaged area continues to split the coating and "grow". The problem is identifying the damaged areas inside the concrete...it might look fine from the outside and suddenly shear five years later with catastrophic collapse of the column/building.

I know I am talking worst case scenario but it is very feasible in this situation.

[MannyIsGod]

11:16 A.M. - Gretna Police Chief...some people south of Gretna Blvd. trapped in water in homes, waiting to be rescued, but believed safe. Several looters arrested, chief says about 50. Lots of debris, at least some structural damage in 95 to 98 percent of buildings. Water is off in Gretna due to barge that was hit and dumped diesel into water supply. Plenty of homes with structural damage...a few that have collapsed. As far as police chief knows, No deaths in Gretna, two minor injuries. Chief says looting has been mainly for groceries. Law enforcement given "whatever authority they need" to prevent looting of homes

I hope nobody gets shot trying to get a ing loaf of bread.

[Clandestino]

too much money to be made in that area... the city will be rebuilt..

[j-6]

http://www.nola.com/hurricane/katrin...005_a16a17.pdf

Thanks for the link. If you go to http://www.nola.com/hurricane/katrina/ , you can read today's Times-Picayune in .pdf format.

[travis2]

I am asking again...my last was not a rhetorical question...


Just how salty is the water in there?

[samikeyp]

You are more compassionate than I am Manny. I think looters should be shot. You steal from someone who was just wiped out, you deserve to die. Although I think if any food places are left, they should give out what they have.

[CosmicCowboy]

We'll agree to disagree Cosmic, I've worked heavy industrial construction for over 15 years in areas of high caustic and salt water atmospheres, and I don't think that there will be as much demolition required as you do.

I hope you are right...but you are working on jobs that were DESIGNED for that environment...stainless re-bar, salt water deterrent admixtures in the concrete etc..I seriously doubt that any NO building codes required that for the "conventional" construction that they were doing...

[Clandestino]

on a small scale, i had a water leak at my house... water was only on the floor for like 2 hours before i had an emergency water restoration company come in.. the cement stayed wet for days. and was very brittle. i had to wait a while before i could even rip up the carpeting tack strips.. i can only imagine what water on concret will do for months...

[SWC Bonfire]

I get away from the land that is below sea level. It's just a losing situation in that area.

Well, it's a good thing there are no hurricanes in the Netherlands.

[MannyIsGod]

You are more compassionate than I am Manny. I think looters should be shot. You steal from someone who was just wiped out, you deserve to die. Although I think if any food places are left, they should give out what they have.

Well, the orders are to protect looting from homes. That is different from looting at a grocery store. These people don't even have water. I know any grocery store I was near would be fair game.

[boutons]

google for "lake ponchartrain salinity"

the first couple site are down, but this isn't:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2002/of02-20...ed-oxygen.html

[CosmicCowboy]

I am asking again...my last was not a rhetorical question...


Just how salty is the water in there?

Travis, I don't know the exact content but I suspect that the water that is flowing in now is pretty high salinity considering the storm surge...and Ponchatrain is technically "brackish"...like our lower laguna madre...and that stuff is stiil damned corrosive...

[CharlieMac]

I'm watching video of the looting in Katrina's aftermath......

Only one person was smart enough to not look into the video camera and smile. She was obviously the brains of that group. She even used a cart to pack groceries into and everyone else was using their hands.

Classic stupidity.