At the risk of suffering...

[DarkReign]

Again, this thread delivers.

What started out, IMO, to be an abject in veiled racism, is nowhere near what my initial impression lead me to believe.

I vote to move away from the Duke scenario. It was a tainted case, and I am pretty sure the outcome would have been VASTLY different if the accused where black and poor. Turns out theyre rich and white and oh yeah, were innocent.

Because we can all turn to the OJ case. It isnt so much a trial of race as it was a trial of wealth and fame. See Chris Rock's standup for a much more humorous view on it.

I have seen with my own eyes black people being...(searching for the right word here)...shunned for their advancement (appropriate?).

It wasnt even a "well to do" job either. I was 18, selling furniture at a large chain here (Art Van). Very diverse workforce. There were 2 divisions of workforce. Sales and AVASI. Sales is self explanatory. AVASI represents the people in the warehouse that receive, sort, catalogue and deliver the furniture.

The second best salesmen at the store I worked at was black. We worked at a suburban store (VERY suburban). He ranked in the top 10 in the entire company in sales. Needless to say, he was successful (once you reached $40k sold, the saleperson received 8% of the amount over and above that threshold...him and his ilk were pulling down well over $100k a year. Well over).

Well, the company held a banquet every year for its top salespeople at the main store to thank them, etc. He received his award just like everyone else.

When he came back to the store the next week, the people he used to associate with in AVASI wouldnt talk to him anymore. Him and I had a good relationship, so after a awhile I asked what was up.

He explained that they were upset because he was a "company man" and had "sold out" to get ahead. When all the guy really did was live at work, bust his ing ass everyday and take care of the customers that the other lazy-ass salespeople gave up on.

He was a black man in a white neighborhood trying to sell people things they probably didnt even need, encountering racism along the way from customers (tip: old white women dont like black people by and large, they visibly clutch their purse even when hes wearing a suit). And his own "friends" decided to hold it against him.

He didnt give 2 s though. I worked there 2 years. He was in that banquet both years and from what I have heard, he still is.

[Yonivore]

Again, this thread delivers.

What started out, IMO, to be an abject in veiled racism, is nowhere near what my initial impression lead me to believe.

I vote to move away from the Duke scenario. It was a tainted case, and I am pretty sure the outcome would have been VASTLY different if the accused where black and poor. Turns out theyre rich and white and oh yeah, were innocent.

In the same paragraph you "vote" to move away from the Duke case while, at the same time, getting in your last word about how you believe it would have been different had the races been reversed.

Well, not so fast. As I've already stated, I don't believe they would have been different. In fact, I believe had they been poor and black and just as innocent as the lacrosse players, they'd of been exonerated and back on the street much faster than were the Duke lacrosse players. Jesse, Al, and gang would have -- rightfully -- raised all kinds of stink until it was done.

, their may have even been another "Crown Heights" type riot, just to make a point. They were all but threatening violence if the innocent lacrosse players weren't convicted. Imagine if you had innocent blacks facing the same dilemma.

Because we can all turn to the OJ case. It isnt so much a trial of race as it was a trial of wealth and fame. See Chris Rock's standup for a much more humorous view on it.

Not true. Johnny Cochran made it about race and the black people of America fell in line.

Even though O.J. was one of the whitest black people in history, the trial quickly became a mechanism for blacks to get one over on the white man. There were many black openly calling for acquittal in return for all the "innocent black men" that had been railroaded in the past.

Either you weren't around or you weren't paying attention. The O. J. case was headed for a guilty verdict until Furman got accused of saying ###### 10 years before.

I have seen with my own eyes black people being...(searching for the right word here)...shunned for their advancement (appropriate?).

It wasnt even a "well to do" job either. I was 18, selling furniture at a large chain here (Art Van). Very diverse workforce. There were 2 divisions of workforce. Sales and AVASI. Sales is self explanatory. AVASI represents the people in the warehouse that receive, sort, catalogue and deliver the furniture.

The second best salesmen at the store I worked at was black. We worked at a suburban store (VERY suburban). He ranked in the top 10 in the entire company in sales. Needless to say, he was successful (once you reached $40k sold, the saleperson received 8% of the amount over and above that threshold...him and his ilk were pulling down well over $100k a year. Well over).

Well, the company held a banquet every year for its top salespeople at the main store to thank them, etc. He received his award just like everyone else.

When he came back to the store the next week, the people he used to associate with in AVASI wouldnt talk to him anymore. Him and I had a good relationship, so after a awhile I asked what was up.

He explained that they were upset because he was a "company man" and had "sold out" to get ahead. When all the guy really did was live at work, bust his ing ass everyday and take care of the customers that the other lazy-ass salespeople gave up on.

He was a black man in a white neighborhood trying to sell people things they probably didnt even need, encountering racism along the way from customers (tip: old white women dont like black people by and large, they visibly clutch their purse even when hes wearing a suit). And his own "friends" decided to hold it against him.

He didnt give 2 s though. I worked there 2 years. He was in that banquet both years and from what I have heard, he still is.

I've seen that phenomenon too. It baffles me why blacks don't want other blacks to achieve.

As for the old white lady clutching her purse. My 80 year-old mother clutches her purse around any stranger but, particularly in the company of salespeople.

[Jamtas#2]

In the same paragraph you "vote" to move away from the Duke case while, at the same time, getting in your last word about how you believe it would have been different had the races been reversed.

Well, not so fast. As I've already stated, I don't believe they would have been different. In fact, I believe had they been poor and black and just as innocent as the lacrosse players, they'd of been exonerated and back on the street much faster than were the Duke lacrosse players. Jesse, Al, and gang would have -- rightfully -- raised all kinds of stink until it was done.

On the flip side of this, I doubt that the gang of 88 would have even been formed or had an opinion in this matter if that had been the case. There also seems to be a rush (maybe a pang of guilt due to history) to bring race as an issue by whites as well. The fact that it occurs does say something about race not only being brought up by people like Al and Jesse as you would claim.

[Yonivore]

On the flip side of this, I doubt that the gang of 88 would have even been formed or had an opinion in this matter if that had been the case.

I'm not so sure. They could have formed to villify the Durham prosecutor who was victimizing the innocent black men.

There also seems to be a rush (maybe a pang of guilt due to history) to bring race as an issue by whites as well. The fact that it occurs does say something about race not only being brought up by people like Al and Jesse as you would claim.

Example please.

[Phenomanul]

First I will commend you for the work ethic and morals you seem to have to have acheived what you have.
That being said, again there is no 100% way to classify any group. I think you would agree that there is more temptation among the lower class to steer towards crime than those who are better off financially than they are.

Think of an average guy who is married that stays faithful to his wife. Now think of someone who is famous and has women throwing themselves at him for one night stands married and remaining faithful. They could both have the same morals and values, but one has to face more temptation than the other and has a higher likelihood of "falling".

I think the same goes for financial and racial inequalities. There is more temptation due to the situations that the majority of them are in.

In terms of a 'temptation' frequency... I see your point and agree.... Nevertheless, my main point is still an absolute. People should be held accountable for their actions regardless of race, gender, culture or socio-economic status.

[Yonivore]

In terms of a 'temptation' frequency... I see your point and agree.... Nevertheless, my main point is still an absolute. People should be held accountable for their actions regardless of race, gender, culture or socio-economic status.

I agree.

Further, society shouldn't be mitigating their crimes by claiming they were driven to it because of race, gender, culture, or socio-economic status.

[Jamtas#2]

I'm not so sure. They could have formed to villify the Durham prosecutor who was victimizing the innocent black men.


Example please.

You are right, it could have happened to villify the prosecuter, but given the fact that he was trying to appeal to the African American community I doubt his tactics would have been the same.

"Example please"
I was actually using the gang of 88 as an example there. As for another one, how about Tookie Williams? (Many other aspects to this one as well, but race was definately an issue.)

[Jamtas#2]

In terms of a 'temptation' frequency... I see your point and agree.... Nevertheless, my main point is still an absolute. People should be held accountable for their actions regardless of race, gender, culture or socio-economic status.

And they will be held accountable. I agree. The discussion wasn't about (at least on my end) on whether they should be held accountable. My arguement was that it is more prone for these types of things to happen to those in the lower economic groups and ethnic groups because of their environment, not because of their race.

[Jamtas#2]

I agree.

Further, society shouldn't be mitigating their crimes by claiming they were driven to it because of race, gender, culture, or socio-economic status.

No, but they should understand what makes it more probable for these people to suc b to these crimes because of their environment. If we can address the causes of these problems, we can help to prevent them from occuring. If all of our focus is on the effects and dealing with them, we will never help to reduce the problems. (Idealistic, I know)

[Yonivore]

You are right, it could have happened to villify the prosecuter, but given the fact that he was trying to appeal to the African American community I doubt his tactics would have been the same.

I was referring to your hypothetical of things being reversed.

I happen to believe the group of 88 would have found some way to insinuate themselves into the matter.

"Example please"

I was actually using the gang of 88 as an example there. As for another one, how about Tookie Williams? (Many other aspects to this one as well, but race was definately an issue.)

I'm understanding you to say that whites have interjected race into some of these debates?

If that's what you were expressing, I'm still not clear to what you are referring. The group of 88 interceded as a proxy for the black community -- identifying with the blacks, you know, kind of like Clinton pretending to be the first Black President.

As for Tookie Williams. I'm not sure in what respect race played a role. I'm not that familiar with the case. Isn't he and ex gang banger that was executed for killing a cop? When was race brought up except may by those who were claiming he was only being executed because he was black.

[Yonivore]

No, but they should understand what makes it more probable for these people to suc b to these crimes because of their environment.

Who should understand?

The victims of their crimes? They want justice.

The government? They should dispense it.

Who exactly should understand?

If we can address the causes of these problems, we can help to prevent them from occuring. If all of our focus is on the effects and dealing with them, we will never help to reduce the problems. (Idealistic, I know)

I don't think anyone outside the black community would be able to address the root causes and, apparently, the black community isn't willing to do so themselves.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's simple. Let's kill the darkies.

[Jamtas#2]

Who should understand?

The victims of their crimes? They want justice.

The government? They should dispense it.

Who exactly should understand?

The people who want to blame the problem on race should understand there's a different reasoning.

I don't think anyone outside the black community would be able to address the root causes and, apparently, the black community isn't willing to do so themselves.

Well, the white population hasn't been able to get rid of white supremacists, and lynch mobs were stopped by law enforcement and government, not white leaders speaking out. I don't think it is right to expect the black community to address and solve a problem that affects everyone, and requires change across all race lines.

[Jamtas#2]

BTW,
I completly understand the mindset you are coming from. Everyone has a moral compass and has the ability to choose from right and wrong and needs to live with the consequences of their actions.

Where we disagree is I believe there is a lot of gray area which affects the choices that people make. Your mindset makes perfect sense in a perfect world, much like socialism does. The problem is, it's not a perfect world and there are many factors that affect things.

[Yonivore]

The people who want to blame the problem on race should understand there's a different reasoning.

I blame it on a lack personal responsibility and a culture that allows, indeed rewards, that irresponsibility.

Well, the white population hasn't been able to get rid of white supremacists,...

They've been sufficiently marginalized.

...and lynch mobs were stopped by law enforcement and government, not white leaders speaking out.

Were there not white leaders that passed those laws and enforced them?

I don't think it is right to expect the black community to address and solve a problem that affects everyone, and requires change across all race lines.

Okay, just what change could I, as a white person, make that would get the black culture to stop the cycle of violence in their own community; to quit glorifying that violence in their art; and to quit punishing achievement, among their own, as being "too white?"

Seriously. What could I do?

BTW,
I completly understand the mindset you are coming from. Everyone has a moral compass and has the ability to choose from right and wrong and needs to live with the consequences of their actions.

I appreciate that.

Where we disagree is I believe there is a lot of gray area which affects the choices that people make. Your mindset makes perfect sense in a perfect world, much like socialism does. The problem is, it's not a perfect world and there are many factors that affect things.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

Only in the black culture is it acceptable for the entire community (draggin many liberals with them) to rise and take the cause of a person -- simply because of their race -- and regardless of whether the cause is just or not; O. J. Simpson, Tawayna Brawley, Rodney King, The Durham Stripper (sorry, her name escapes me), and the list goes on...

If you oppose them, you're a racist. , if you just happen to stumble upon their displays of outrage, you're liable to suffer their wrath -- just ask Reginald Denny.

[Marcus Bryant]

Something tells me that if this happened in a trailer park on the 4th of July and Juan or whoever hit Jim Bob and Luann's kid (who the lets their 2 year old wander out onto a road?) that the results could very well have been the same.

The social problems this incident highlights are how large groups can encourage individuals to feel emboldened to commit acts of violence and perhaps the weak parenting skills of the poor. Otherwise, I'm not sure why we are putting African-Americans in concentration camps or whatever it is that Yonivore is advocating.

[Yonivore]

Something tells me that if this happened in a trailer park on the 4th of July and Juan or whoever hit Jim Bob and Luann's kid (who the lets their 2 year old wander out onto a road?) that the results could very well have been the same.

The social problems this incident highlights are how large groups can encourage individuals to feel emboldened to commit acts of violence and perhaps the weak parenting skills of the poor. Otherwise, I'm not sure why we are putting African-Americans in concentration camps or whatever it is that Yonivore is advocating.

You were paying attention.

[Jamtas#2]

Were there not white leaders that passed those laws and enforced them?

Were they not the government? Isn't that who you are saying has no place in settling racial disputes?

[Yonivore]

Were they not the government?

In America, people are the government. Were it not for white leaders -- both in government service and out, none of that would have occurred.

Isn't that who you are saying has no place in settling racial disputes?

I also said their efforts were noble and right-minded, even if they contributed to problem in the long run.

Government's role is to ensure cons utional protection and opportunities. It is not their role to make me hire you, let you in my club, or even like you.

[Jamtas#2]

Okay, just what change could I, as a white person, make that would get the black culture to stop the cycle of violence in their own community; to quit glorifying that violence in their art; and to quit punishing achievement, among their own, as being "too white?"

Seriously. What could I do?

I'm not saying you personally in this instance. You were saying this is just a job for the black community to solve. While you personally may not be able to influence change in the racial community, we (all races) can help address the economic issues that are more of a contributing factor to all of this. How many riots have you seen involving wealthy minorities (or majority)?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.
Only in the black culture is it acceptable for the entire community (draggin many liberals with them) to rise and take the cause of a person -- simply because of their race -- and regardless of whether the cause is just or not; O. J. Simpson, Tawayna Brawley, Rodney King, The Durham Stripper (sorry, her name escapes me), and the list goes on...
If you oppose them, you're a racist. , if you just happen to stumble upon their displays of outrage, you're liable to suffer their wrath -- just ask Reginald Denny.

You do have a point. There are race baiters in the African American community. But tell me, do you not understand their mistrust of our government and law enforcement? Do you remember the Tuskegee Experiment? People like Al and Jesse sure do. It's a hard thing to forget.

[Jamtas#2]

In America, people are the government. Were it not for white leaders -- both in government service and out, none of that would have occurred.

And were it not for white leaders of generations past, the slavery and discrimination would not have occurred either.

I also said their efforts were noble and right-minded, even if they contributed to problem in the long run.

Government's role is to ensure cons utional protection and opportunities. It is not their role to make me hire you, let you in my club, or even like you.

Ok, but where do we draw the line on this slippery slope. Your club is a private business and you can discriminate who you want because it is yours. So all private companies could exclude the hiring of African Americans, Hispanics, etc. Don't you think this would start to limit the job opportunities of minorities? Especially the higher paying ones?

[Yonivore]

I'm not saying you personally in this instance. You were saying this is just a job for the black community to solve. While you personally may not be able to influence change in the racial community, we (all races) can help address the economic issues that are more of a contributing factor to all of this.

How?

How many riots have you seen involving wealthy minorities (or majority)?

I believe someone mentioned the WTO nonsense in this thread. They're comprised of people of mixed means and races.

But, I understand your point. And, really, isn't that kind of the point in this thread? To turn the question around on you; how many poor minorities -- other than blacks -- (or majorities) have instigated riots in the past 40-45 years?

You do have a point. There are race baiters in the African American community. But tell me, do you not understand their mistrust of our government and law enforcement? Do you remember the Tuskegee Experiment? People like Al and Jesse sure do. It's a hard thing to forget.

Of course they do, it serves their purpose to remember such things.

But, the black community is either going to have to trust or remain isolated. I don't see anyone offering anything even close to the Tuskegee Experiment, lately. Do you?

[Yonivore]

And were it not for white leaders of generations past, the slavery and discrimination would not have occurred either.

So? Doesn't that mean whites have at least progressed?

Ok, but where do we draw the line on this slippery slope. Your club is a private business and you can discriminate who you want because it is yours.

I tell you where you draw the line. You draw the line with en ies that hope to have any sort of commercial relationship with the federal government.

If you're a government contractor, supplier, or employer; you may not discriminate for any "accident of birth." Period.

That's where you draw the line.

If you sink your own time, treasure, and talent into a private business, you should have every right to share that enterprise with anyone you choose for any reason.

So all private companies could exclude the hiring of African Americans, Hispanics, etc. Don't you think this would start to limit the job opportunities of minorities? Especially the higher paying ones?

In this day and age with CEO's like Oprah Winfrey. No.

I don't believe society would allow it to occur. In fact, I believe companies that choose to discriminate, for reasons beyond the employees control, would be marginalized and eventually suffer or fail.

We won't ever know unless you stop the preferential treatment of minorities.

[Jamtas#2]

How?

Raising the minimum wage, making health care more affordable, restructuring the drug war to go after the suppliers and nations that produce the drugs rather than making the majority of our focus on catching the low level street dealers. Take away their employers, and drug dealers won't have jobs. (or the legalization process that would eliminate their positions as well, another debate for another time)

But, I understand your point. And, really, isn't that kind of the point in this thread? To turn the question around on you; how many poor minorities -- other than blacks -- (or majorities) have instigated riots in the past 40-45 years?

I really can't answer that question unfortunately. I can't speak intelligently of all the riots over the past 40 years. I don't consider the attack on the car to be a riot as much of a mob incident. But to turn that question around, can you tell me of a majority other than whites in this country who have enslaved another race and used their government to create laws to hold that group down?

[Yonivore]

Raising the minimum wage, making health care more affordable, restructuring the drug war to go after the suppliers and nations that produce the drugs rather than making the majority of our focus on catching the low level street dealers. Take away their employers, and drug dealers won't have jobs. (or the legalization process that would eliminate their positions as well, another debate for another time)

It's all been tried and the problem continues to worsen...

Mind you, I'm opposed to any of your suggestions but, that's not to say they haven't been proposed and tried before...they have.

I do, however, agree that the War on Drugs is a fiasco that should be ended with the decriminalization of drugs. But, that would help more than the black community.

I really can't answer that question unfortunately. I can't speak intelligently of all the riots over the past 40 years. I don't consider the attack on the car to be a riot as much of a mob incident.

Riot/Mob -- your quibbling. But, I understand the distinction you're making. I'm just arguing it could have easily turned into a riot but for early intervention.

But to turn that question around, can you tell me of a majority other than whites in this country who have enslaved another race and used their government to create laws to hold that group down?

Well, not a majority but; allow me to answer anyway. Yes, Africans. Many of the true African-Americans, here now, are immigrants from slave-practicing countries or are the decendants of Africans who sold other Africans into slavery during the hey day of the Slave trade.

That's why the reparations nonsense is just that, nonsense. There's no way to separate the guilty from the innocent. There are many non-blacks that absolutely nothing to do with slavery. And there are many blacks that a lot to do with slavery. And, over a centurty later, there's not way to extricate the truth or divvy up retribution.

I don't know the exact percentage but, I'm told the percentage of Aftrican Americans whose families were ever impacted by the slave trade is quite small. And, you have to figure in those that were involved as slave traders -- and not slaves.