On offense, the Spurs need to recommit themselves to the interior game, specifically the high-low game. Having a big that can space the floor doesn't mean the team MUST play with a 3pt shooting big. Two things I would do, even if it costs us some of our young pieces, are: (1) trade for a big with a decent post game (e.g., Brooke Lopez, Al Jefferson); and (2) have Tim focus on being a reliable top of the key shooter.
But our deficiencies in the interior are gravest on the defensive end. It's not that I dislike Bonner, but he isn't Bill Lambier, Robert Horry, or someone who is going to bring that toughness to our defense while hitting them from range. That combination is rare. Bonner battles his heart out, no doubt, but he doesn't have the talent to guard the likes of Z-Bo, the Gasols, Bynum, Perkins, Ibaka, Dirk, Chandler, etc. On balance, I'd take more at ude/an enforcer/an irritant on defense from that position (Fab 2.0), over a specific skill set on offense.
I agree with most of what op TIMVP said... Spurs are not far off. They need to get defensive minded. Plug in players that will allow you to do that, and get rid of/bench players who dont i.e bonner.
For those of you who say its time to rebuild, what if these past 4 years were our rebuilding years for one last Tim Duncan run??? Pop experimented with Finley, Bogans, Bonner; he dropped defense for run and gun. None worked, now time to go back to basics for one last year.
MannyIsGod and Bruno, you both know I respect the out of your basketball takes but I think you are both massively overreacting to the current situation. Just as you both massively underreacted to the difficulty level of this series.
I pointed out reasons why this was a difficult series but you both weren't havin' none of it. I don't think the Big 3 era is over ... and I'm guessing you both won't be havin' none of it either
First of all, I don't know why Spurs fans are so much in a hurry to tear it down. There's going to be plenty of time to rebuilt once the Big 3 era is legitimately over. And really, it makes sense to try to win it all in the meantime with RJ's horrible contract still on the books. (And yeah, it's easy to say to get rid of RJ no matter what, don't bring him off the bench and make him someone else's problem ... but it takes two teams to trade and no one is going to touch RJ so we might as well face reality.)
Saying TD should retire is just mind-boggling to me. Sure, he's not the dominant Tim Duncan anymore. Sure, he's probably a 12 and 8 players the next couple of years. But he's still a quality, quality starter. Per minute, he can probably remain near a star level for one or two more seasons.
If he's tired and wants to spend more time with the family, I'll tip my hat and say goodbye. But to nudge him out is stupid. Seriously. He's still a good player. He has already shown he'll play a role instead of try to continue being the star of the team (something Hakeem, Ewing and MJ never could do). And the argument that he should retire to "preserve his legacy" is one of my biggest pet peeves in all of sports. There's absolutely no shame in fighting until the bitter end. Quit because some fickle fans will find it harder to remember the good times? That's always been an amazingly stupid argument by sports fans, IMO.
Those saying the Spurs should just blow it up don't really understand how hard it is to rebuild. You press the reset button now and there's a good chance that the Spurs don't become a true championship contender for decades. DECADES. Being in a small market that can't attract star talent means the Spurs would have to hope and pray to rebuild through the draft. And there have been teams waiting to rebuild through the draft for 20 to 30 years. I'd honestly say the chances are higher that the Spurs move from San Antonio before they are able to get lucky enough in the draft to get their next David Robinson or Tim Duncan. There are three or four such players per decade (at most). You really want to play that game of chance?
I mean, the logic is pretty simple to me. With the two choices being totally rebuild or try to get the pieces needed to surround the Old Big 3, the choice is damn easy. If you choose rebuild, you have to wait around to land the next superstar ... and then hope that you can surround that superstar with a couple other stars. And then get the role players to fit around the new core. Yeah, these Spurs were able to do it four times but that was with the amazing luck of getting Robinson and Duncan with number one picks and then getting lucky with TP and Manu. I don't even want to think about the odds of anything like that ever happening again to the Spurs franchise.
Instead of blowing everything up now, you stick to it. Hope against hope to add one superstar somehow or a couple of stars next to the Big 3 in the next few seasons. Could the Old Big 3 plus a couple of very good sidekicks win a championship? Could the Old Big 3 plus a superstar win a championship? I think there's a chance.
And that chance is much greater than the chance that pressing the reset button now will result in championship hopes any time soon.
The Spurs should just bring Ryan Richards along or just draft a big body that can bang with the Gasol/Bynums of the league. Even if he has no skill.
Aaron Gray is a 7 foot mongloid with no basketball skill whatsoever, but he still did a great job on Pau that series. Spurs need to get somebody like that desperately
I was thinking that part of the problem this past season was that we relied on an old McDyess to be our 2nd legit big towards the end of the season.
In the past, players like McDyess got sparing minuetes but played a big role as 3rd and 4th big. I think as the season wore on, we relied on him to be the 2nd legit big next to Duncan when Blair and Bonner could not. Splitter was never given a chance.
Mr. Manny with the goods.
Reality has a way of kicking you in the nuts.
theres not many players out there atm you can really turn into a franchise player, look what happen to ariza when he sign with the rockets...
how old is granger btw? good volume scorer, but he fail in the bulls series, wouldnt mind him ina aspurs jersey first option on offense....
Is +1 still allowed?MannyIsGod and Bruno, you both know I respect the out of your basketball takes but I think you are both massively overreacting to the current situation. Just as you both massively underreacted to the difficulty level of this series.
I pointed out reasons why this was a difficult series but you both weren't havin' none of it. I don't think the Big 3 era is over ... and I'm guessing you both won't be havin' none of it either
First of all, I don't know why Spurs fans are so much in a hurry to tear it down. There's going to be plenty of time to rebuilt once the Big 3 era is legitimately over. And really, it makes sense to try to win it all in the meantime with RJ's horrible contract still on the books. (And yeah, it's easy to say to get rid of RJ no matter what, don't bring him off the bench and make him someone else's problem ... but it takes two teams to trade and no one is going to touch RJ so we might as well face reality.)
Saying TD should retire is just mind-boggling to me. Sure, he's not the dominant Tim Duncan anymore. Sure, he's probably a 12 and 8 players the next couple of years. But he's still a quality, quality starter. Per minute, he can probably remain near a star level for one or two more seasons.
If he's tired and wants to spend more time with the family, I'll tip my hat and say goodbye. But to nudge him out is stupid. Seriously. He's still a good player. He has already shown he'll play a role instead of try to continue being the star of the team (something Hakeem, Ewing and MJ never could do). And the argument that he should retire to "preserve his legacy" is one of my biggest pet peeves in all of sports. There's absolutely no shame in fighting until the bitter end. Quit because some fickle fans will find it harder to remember the good times? That's always been an amazingly stupid argument by sports fans, IMO.
Those saying the Spurs should just blow it up don't really understand how hard it is to rebuild. You press the reset button now and there's a good chance that the Spurs don't become a true championship contender for decades. DECADES. Being in a small market that can't attract star talent means the Spurs would have to hope and pray to rebuild through the draft. And there have been teams waiting to rebuild through the draft for 20 to 30 years. I'd honestly say the chances are higher that the Spurs move from San Antonio before they are able to get lucky enough in the draft to get their next David Robinson or Tim Duncan. There are three or four such players per decade (at most). You really want to play that game of chance?
I mean, the logic is pretty simple to me. With the two choices being totally rebuild or try to get the pieces needed to surround the Old Big 3, the choice is damn easy. If you choose rebuild, you have to wait around to land the next superstar ... and then hope that you can surround that superstar with a couple other stars. And then get the role players to fit around the new core. Yeah, these Spurs were able to do it four times but that was with the amazing luck of getting Robinson and Duncan with number one picks and then getting lucky with TP and Manu. I don't even want to think about the odds of anything like that ever happening again to the Spurs franchise.
Instead of blowing everything up now, you stick to it. Hope against hope to add one superstar somehow or a couple of stars next to the Big 3 in the next few seasons. Could the Old Big 3 plus a couple of very good sidekicks win a championship? Could the Old Big 3 plus a superstar win a championship? I think there's a chance.
And that chance is much greater than the chance that pressing the reset button now will result in championship hopes any time soon.
+1
Most posters seem to have the mentality that a team should either be a contender or be in complete rebuilding mode. I don't get that. You guys underestimate just how important luck is for a small market team when trying to build a contender. Once the big 3 era ends, we could be bad for a long long time.
Speaking of.....
Perhaps the Spurs should start thinking about acquiring a big like Gregory? Not much to lose at this point.
if the spurs can blow 10m a season a piece of stain, i see why not take the risk MLE on greg oden....
Both events are linked.
It's because Memphis are a bad team and Spurs haven't been able to beat them that Spurs should consider blowing it up.
I'm interested to see what Memphis will do in the rest of the playoffs. If they do well, it will mean that I've underestimate them. If they suck, it will show how far Spurs are from being a contender.
Here is what I want Pop to say to Tim this offseason:
"First, whatever your choice is, wee will pay you the reminder of your contract ($21.2M).
We aren't in a situation were we can surround you with a team good enough to have a legit shot at winning a championship. You have three opitons:
- You continue to play with us and you will have seasons where at the best, you are going to reach the WCSF.
- You retire to enjoy your life outside the basket.
- We waive you and you can sign elsewhere to chase a ring."
It has nothing to do with "preserving his legacy". It is just being honest with him.
It is the exact opposite.
It's because that's so hard to rebuild that Spurs should try to get every single little edge.
Getting something for Parker and Ginobili instead of just letting them retire as a Spur will help a little the rebuilding process.
The soonest Spurs tank, the soonest they will get a superstar in the drafT. Who know, maybe the superstar will be in the 2012 draft...
I don't think there is a chance for Spurs to get enough talent to win a championship around the Old big 3 with no interesting draft picks, no cap space and no great trade assets.
I see the Spurs as a 6-10 seed for the next 2-3 years if they don't blow it up. I just don't see any reason to bind the team into mediocrity with no upside. I'm not sure how they get a difference maker for now, as only Parker, Ginobili, and Duncan have trade value, and moving any of them would be waving the white flag anyways. Even if RC finds someone good at #30, you're still talking at least one full season and more than likely 2-3 before the pick can become a meaningful contributor. The only way you keep the team together is if you think one of Blair, Splitter, Hill, Anderson, or Neal are going to have a huge breakout season next year. I mean, something like 15 and 10 from one of the bigs or one of Hill, Anderson, Neal becomes a 6th Man of Year candidate. That's what it's going to take; the team is going to need someone to play as well as Jefferson did in November.
if Spurs do bring back the Big 3, which i suspect they will, they gotta find a way to shore up the defense and toughness. you're not going to bring in a go-to offensive player, but you can at least bring in quality FAs to help defensively.
some nice perimiter defenders:
1. Shane Battier
2. Michael Petrius
3. Grant Hill
4. Prince
5. DeShawn Stevenson
6. Anthony Parker
any one of those guys is going to have a huge impact defensively.
Spurs are going to have a hole w/ McDyess retired. obviously, Splitter gets his minutes.
defensively, a lineup of:
Parker
Ginobili
one of the listed perimiter defenders
Duncan
Splitter
is actually pretty good. the problem is they're still going to be bringing the turn towers off the bench.
they can shore up the big issue by signing one of these big FA:
Jarren Collins
Kenyon Martin
Samuel Dalembert
Fesenko
through the draft, you have to aim for defense from both the big and wing positions, obviously.
unfortunately, the Spurs are so ed with RJ's contract that they have practically no wiggle room. signing any of the listed FAs is going to be tough, and because of that i see the Spurs bringing back the same team as last year with the same problems.
which is why i am for breaking up the big 3 to begin with. just get the rebuilding process started now. the team is first round fodder for the next 2 years.
no point being mediocre building in the draft with picks ranging from 16-20
Well.. i think Bruno pretty much summed up what were all thinking..
There is little chance our team improves by adding other players, whether thats thru free agency (we won't spend the MLE + we will have trouble attracting players with NY, NJ, Heat, and others in position to take off.)
Folks, here's the facts: Tim Duncan averaged just under 13 ppg in this series. Despite his being so conserved over the course of the regular season, we did not see the Timmy of old emerge in the postseason, just old Timmy. And Timmy of old isn't walking through that door next season either. Just older Timmy. Ask yourself this: if Memphis could hold Timmy down with their big front line, what do you think LA would have done with their bigger, better front line? It pains me to say this, but Duncan is no longer the dominant all-star who used to raise his game in the playoffs. And if Tim is no longer that force in the middle, what exactly would we base any championship hopes on?
Manu is 33, and was hampered by injury this postseason. He was clearly gassed last night--understandable after his game 5 heroics, but still. Next year he'll be 34; does anyone on this board think he'll be healthier then? All season and postseason? The way he plays?
With this year's Tim and Manu both playing as best they could, we got beat by Memphis. A good eight-seed, but an eight-seed nonetheless. This is not the story of Bonner, or Pop, or Splitter, or even RJ. It's the story of a Big 3 who just aren't that big any more. Tim was the foundation of this franchise and those four championships, and he just can't carry that load any more. He always shared it, obviously, and got good help, but he was the rock. And now he's not.
That being said, I don't see the point in searching around for this or that role player to fill in around the edges. The center is gone, pardon the pun.
My rebuilding idea: Shut it down and get young. Let Timmy do anything he wants: play 20 min a game, retire with a buyout, go elsewhere, whatever he desires. He's earned it. Trade Manu to a contender, with his permission. Surely he'd want to do that. And not that I don't like Tony, but he's got the most trade value, so trade him--hopefully for a young stud and picks. Trade for as many picks as possible. Get a new coach, one who wants to build young players.
Time to start over.
Just not picks this year, unless some team is out of its mind and trades the #1 pick for TP or Manu. Tank 2011-12 for one of the talented forwards in the 2012 draft and then tank 2012-13 for one of the good crop of centers who could be in the 2013 draft.
Staying pat while just tweaking, and adding some players here in there hasn't worked for 4 years, I'm not sure how it would now with another year older core.
Spurs could just stay with it as suggested here, but I don't see how that would give them a realistic shot at the le. Should they keep beating the dead horse or start the rebuild now? If they wait to long the wont have anything of value to help speed the rebuilding possess along. Just look at the other teams that have waited to long for the rebuild, it takes a good 10 years if not longer to get a full working core again. I just don't think starting at the very bottom would be a very good idea.
Why not try to start the rebuilding now while they have some value to start immediately bringing in a new core. The Big 3 was one of the best in the NBA, but father of time can be a real , ask Chicago, Boston, Houston, and even LA. All of those teams had their times of greatness but eventually had to rebuild.
Tweaking or re-tooling , or however you want to call it worked great in the past when Spurs had a good young core to work around but thats just not the case anymore.
I would see timvp's side more if the team made a decent playoff showing like last year vs Dallas or lost due to injuries like in 08 or 09, but they were pretty healthy this season and were clearly the inferior team vs a Grizzlies team whose ceiling is probably a second-round showing. Forget LA and OKC... would this team have beaten Portland? Aldridge has looked like an MVP against them this season. Would they have been able to match Denver's depth and size inside? Would they have stopped Dirk 2 years in a row? Is there a West playoff team other than New Orleans that you could look at and say "that team has no answer for the Spurs"?
I agree with this entirely. I can't get over how many black named spurs fans are spewing this mouth diarrhea crap.
It's as if they seriously thought by keeping Duncan's minutes low in the regular season, when we upped his minutes a little in the playoffs he would revert to 2004 Duncan or something like magic.
That's so insanely far fetched I just can't understand it.
Duncan did everything to be expected out of him this series, but he (and the entire team!!!) fell victim to Memphis' bad ass defense. His passing was slow and he turned it over, but so did our starting guards.
Memphis shut the whole team down. Made the whole team look slow.
Spurfan needs to start crediting Memphis and stop assuming the only way Duncan gets outplayed is if he's finished.
It's 1+1 = 6 to these people.
If we had played a grind it out style and incorporated all the horses at our disposal this season, we could have beat Memphis.
But we were shown that our strategy was fools gold and one of our most valuable contributors hardly could contribute properly. Meanwhile we overplay someone who does the opposite of contribute.
Last edited by Cant_Be_Faded; 04-30-2011 at 03:52 PM.
My plan going into the offseason is pretty vanilla and anti-BLOW UP
1) Beg Duncan to renegotiate for less money giving us flexibility. If he refuses, oh well, resign him after his current contract. Either way, getting rid of him until his wheels truly fall off is insulting, disgusting, and flat out stupid.
2) Keep Parker and Ginobili. Move Ginobili to bench status only and give him the horry treatment like no other.
3) See what we can get for Hill, Bonner (ha), Blair, RJ (ha). The actions dictated by this step depends on what we can get for them. I honestly think Blair and Hill have already reached their respective ceilings with the spurs. I also think Blair especially can become a more beastly version of himself if he's on the right team surrounded by a different style of teammates. Other GM's might be looking for someone exactly like him.
George Hill on the other hand, I believe should be moved in the course of the next season. His value will more than likely increase by giving him high-level minutes out the start of the season. Then try trade to him when his stock is high for a player at any position with SIZE.
4) Draft size. Screw looking for diamonds in the rough, draft anyone left with size, and keep the fingers crossed. Whatever draft spot we have. If we find another undersized diamond in the rough, it will not help this team. It. Will. Not. Also keep open the option of trading up in the draft to get a player we may be out of position to get, dangle Blair or Hill if necessary.
5) Sign any available free agent wing player that gives his entire heart and soul to play defense. Anyone. Just as long as they are not (1) old 33+ and (2) under- ing-sized. I don't care if they averaged 2 minutes a game for the Bobcats. Sign a player of at least average size that plays relentless defense, regardless of what offensive capabilities he has.
In summary, I'd like to see us retain the big 3, and draft/sign ONLY players with average to above average size. No more old signees. No more undersized signees. I could give a if they shoot 50% threes for their career. I could care less if they can't even dribble. That is what I would like to see. Size.
Darko f'n Millici looked like Wilt Chamberlain agains this team.
Before offering rebuilding suggestions, you first need to decide what the goal is.
If the goal is to just have a team making the playoffs for the next couple of years, then there are lots of ways to do that either keeping the big 3 or breaking them up.
If the goal is to get Duncan one more ring, then NOTHING matters until Pop decides it's time to get back to size and defense.
Pop has must again insist "play defense or sit"
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