War-

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]

...and your saying foreign state abductions without any due process are OK?

Desperate times call for desperate measures dan.
Once again people expect Israel to abide by the International protocol for eagaging the enemy while breaking those rules of engagement is second nature to their enemies.

What if France considered you a possible threat and kidnapped you? What if the US just let it happen?

If France were in the same situation as Israel and the U.S. were a terrorist regime that desired their annihilation, I would put the blame for the kidnapping point blank at the feet of the US.

[velik_m]

You don't really think that what's going on in the Middle East is because of that single incident, do you?

(saying no will keep you out of the certifiable category)

ofcourse it's not. but escalating the incident at such pace is not a path towards peace.

[Nbadan]

You're the one that sourced the article. I guess you'd better stick with articles from the Democratic Underground so you don't have to deal with any of those pesky 'facts' that torture you so.

I didn't know that DU had gone into the publishing business? or is every news article that appears in DU automatically assumed to be compromised? Only in Gerryatric world.

Of course there are Iranians in Lebanon. Americans too. Maybe it was the U.S. that fired that missile?

[jochhejaam]

ofcourse it's not. but escalating the incident at such pace is not a path towards peace.

velik, you would have a good point if it weren't for the fact that the goal of Israel's enemies is their annihilation, not peace.

[Nbadan]

Desperate times call for desperate measures dan.
Once again people expect Israel to abide by the International protocol for eagaging the enemy while breaking those rules of engagement is second nature to their enemies.

Israel has every right to protect it citizens, but it should have done so with the aid of the Lebanese government and its elected PM, instead of bombing his offices.

[Gerryatrics]

ofcourse it's not. but escalating the incident at such pace is not a path towards peace.

So what is the path of Peace? Israel has been fighting for it's survival since it's (modern) inception. They've offered almost everything except packing up and abandoning Israel entirely. The Palestinians wont settle for anything short of the entire annihilation of Israel and the Jews. If public statements from Palestinian leaders to that effect haven't been enough to convince you, maybe the election of Hamas clued you in. Suicide Bomber attacks, rocket attacks and other terrorist attacks have continued even after Israel withdrew from the "Occupied Territories". What is it exactly Israel is supposed to do that will magically lead to Peace?

[Gerryatrics]

I didn't know that DU had gone into the publishing business? or is every news article that appears in DU automatically assumed to be compromised? Only in Gerryatric world.

Of course there are Iranians in Lebanon. Americans too. Maybe it was the U.S. that fired that missile?

DU doesn't have original content? Funny, a two second search of the front page got me this

As Israel rains death and ruin upon the helpless Lebanese over two kidnapped soldiers, as Bush's doppleganger in North Korea - a similarly deranged narcissist - shoots wannabe nukes into the Sea of Japan, as Japan itself considers military action in retaliation, as Baghdad rages and riots, as American soldiers continue to be demoralized, depleted, and as we have seen lately, dehumanized; as Mexicans protest in defense of democracy in ways we Americans are much too complacent to dare emulate... as we watch in a mix of despair and surreal disbelief, with only slight punctuations of relief provided by Colbert, Olbermann, or Stewart. And as we all wonder how much more can go wrong, and will go wrong...

Only in Nbadan World... is reading comprehension eschewed to such a degree.

[smeagol]

It's pretty clear Israel's neighbors don't want peace.

[jochhejaam]

Israel has every right to protect it citizens, but it should have done so with the aid of the Lebanese government and its elected PM, instead of bombing his offices.

That would be as successful as the U.S. asking Hugo Chavez to send troops to help us with the battle in Iraq.

[velik_m]

So what is the path of Peace? Israel has been fighting for it's survival since it's (modern) inception. They've offered almost everything except packing up and abandoning Israel entirely. The Palestinians wont settle for anything short of the entire annihilation of Israel and the Jews. If public statements from Palestinian leaders to that effect haven't been enough to convince you, maybe the election of Hamas clued you in. Suicide Bomber attacks, rocket attacks and other terrorist attacks have continued even after Israel withdrew from the "Occupied Territories". What is it exactly Israel is supposed to do that will magically lead to Peace?

Israel is using the same pattern and tactics it used forever. Have the militants and extremists grew weaker? No, in fact, as election of Hamas proved, they've got stronger.

A road to peace? How about "suck it up". If a buch of nuts blow themself up and kill israelis, you don't need to strike back with air-to-ground missiles on a crowded street. There are other more subtle methods you can use.
Besides if you move your entire army over such little incidents, you just show them that this is extremly important to you, that it hurt you. You are showing weakness and inviting them to do it again.

[smeagol]

Israel is using the same pattern and tactics it used forever. Have the militants and extremists grew weaker? No, in fact, as election of Hamas proved, they've got stronger.

A road to peace? How about "suck it up". If a buch of nuts blow themself up and kill israelis, you don't need to strike back with air-to-ground missiles on a crowded street. There are other more subtle methods you can use.
Besides if you move your entire army over such little incidents, you just show them that this is extremly important to you, that it hurt you. You are showing weakness and inviting them to do it again.

How about the Palestinians/Syrians/Iranians/etc. stop the nuts from blowing up themselves and killing innocent Isrealis. They would have much more credibility if Israel retaliates after one of these incidents.

[velik_m]

How about the Palestinians/Syrians/Iranians/etc. stop the nuts from blowing up themselves and killing innocent Isrealis. They would have much more credibility if Israel retaliates after one of these incidents.

Israel does retaliate. And it was Israelis that started terrorism and killing in ME in the first place.

[Yonivore]

How could the peace process fail and the whole area be on the brink without the diplomatic example of the U.S.?

47 people killed, countless injured and property destroyed, including civilian infrastructure and a naval blockage all for the kidnapping of two IAF troops? Sounds rational.

You say that as if the Hezbullah didn't invade Israel, attack a military vehicle, kill 8 soldiers, and, only then, did they retreat to Lebanon with two hostages.

What would any other sovereign nation do under those cir stances?

Israel demanded the return of the soldiers. And, except for ridiculous demands for the exchange of a buttload of terrorists for the soldiers (extortion), Hezbullah refused.

So, you go get them and you destroy the ability of those who perpetrated the act to ever do it again.

[Yonivore]

Israel does retaliate. And it was Israelis that started terrorism and killing in ME in the first place.

Really? I'd like to her that version of history.

[Yonivore]

The Jerusalem Post reports on the Hezbollah attack on an Israeli ship, in which four sailors were killed. The most significant point is that the attack was carried out using a missile made in Iran, not a drone as first reported. And the IDF says the missile was fired by Iranians:

An IDF investigation into the attack showed that Hizbullah had fired an Iranian-made missile at the vessel from the shores of Lebanon, said Brig. Gen. Ido Nehushtan.

A senior IDF intelligence official says that Iran has approximately 100 soldiers in Lebanon and that they helped Hizbullah hit an Israel Navy ship with an anti-ship missile.

And, in a move that is bound to garner them Cairo's sympathies, Hezbollah also apparently sank an Egyptian merchant ship.

Robert Satloff's analysis in the new issue of the Weekly Standard anticipates the direct Iranian involvement in the conflict:

Virtually overnight, an audacious Hamas raid has metastasized into a crisis that holds the greatest potential for regional conflagration in years. On a strategic level, the rogues' goal is almost surely to fuse the disparate crises into one--merging either the Hamas or Hezbollah front with Iran's nuclear standoff with the West, perhaps by the transfer of the captive soldiers to Iranian control, by direct involvement of Iranian Revolutionary Guards in the rocket fire against Israel, or by some other means.

If that happens, then Hamas and its fellow quartet members may achieve what Yasser Arafat was not able to accomplish with two intifadas--to regionalize the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and thereby radically alter the strategic balance. And if Iran is able to exploit this crisis to show that its nuclear program earns it and its allies special treatment on the terrorism front, Tehran will have proven precisely how beneficial the decision to invest in a nuclear program really was. As the Iranian newspaper Kayhan, close to Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, editorialized last Thursday, "Nuclear Iran is eradicating the nuclear prestige of Israel." That's the sort of rising star to which Syria would like to be hitched.

In Gaza and Lebanon, a battle between Israel and two of its enemies has now been joined. Its spread to two other enemies--Iran and Syria--is a stark and urgent possibility. Let us not mistake this conflict for a local skirmish, a pesky diversion from more serious business, like stopping Iran's nuclear program or building a free, stable Iraq. On the contrary, it is all of a piece.

Defeat for Israel--either on the battlefield or via coerced compromises to achieve flawed cease-fires--is a defeat for U.S. interests; it will inspire radicals of every stripe, release Iran and Syria to spread more mayhem inside Iraq, and make more likely our own eventual confrontation with this emboldened alliance of extremists. Victory--in the form of Hezbollah's disarmament, the expulsion of the Iranian military presence from Lebanon, the eviction of Meshal and friends from Damascus, and the demise of the Hamas government in Gaza--is, by the same token, also a victory for U.S. (and Western) interests.

On a related note, YNET News reports that Israel has given Syria a 72-hour ultimatum.

[Yonivore]

"Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don’t know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate."

So, Dan, did ol' Noam say from where this information came or, at least, provide some corroboration?

I don't remember Hamas claiming this when Corporal Shalit was kidnapped.

[velik_m]

Really? I'd like to her that version of history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...e_of_Palestine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can negate the use of terror as a means of battle.
...
We are quite far from moral hesitations on the national battlefield. We see before us the command of the Torah, the most moral teaching in the world: Obliterate - until destruction. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all.
But primarily terror is part of our political battle under present conditions and its role is large and great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees

[Yonivore]

Irgun and Lehi are pre-Israel groups for which there was Jewish condemnation, as well.

How about a terrorist act committed by the State of Israel. Got one of those?

[scott]

How about a terrorist act committed by the State of Israel. Got one of those?

The continued terrorizing of the Palestinian people by bulldozing their homes and shooting rockets into their neighborhoods from helicopters generally qualifies as terrorism to me. Just because the state of Israel has been equiped with a modern military by western allies doesn't make them any less of terrorists as horrid groups like Hezbollah and Hamas.

The losers in this "war" are the Israeli and Palestinian citizens who manage to live together peacefully if not for the instance of their governments to kill each other.

[scott]

Speculation is that the Arab Elements and Hezbollah were going to smuggle the Israeli captives to grain silos in Lebanon. Good thing Israel blew them up.

[clubalien]

why didn't lebanon or syrian planes shoot down the jewish planes before they were able to bomb the airport?

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, its sooooo easy to just bundle everyone who criticizes Israel foreign policy into one nice hate-filled package. Get real.

Dude, its the first card he likes to play on the subject. EVERY time.

[MannyIsGod]

Speculation is that the Arab Elements and Hezbollah were going to smuggle the Israeli captives to grain silos in Lebanon. Good thing Israel blew them up.

Those were strategic Hezbollah assests bombed to the joy of the Lebanese.

[clambake]

Israel is fed up, done. Hard to lay blame entirely in their lap. They have called up ALL of their reserves. I doubt they would do that if their intentions were not resolute.

[Yonivore]

The continued terrorizing of the Palestinian people by bulldozing their homes and shooting rockets into their neighborhoods from helicopters generally qualifies as terrorism to me.

So, Hamas doesn't base their rocket attacks from those neighborhoods?

Just because the state of Israel has been equiped with a modern military by western allies doesn't make them any less of terrorists as horrid groups like Hezbollah and Hamas.

Hezbollah and Hamas intentionally target civilians.

The losers in this "war" are the Israeli and Palestinian citizens who manage to live together peacefully if not for the instance of their governments to kill each other.

So, scott. How many Israelis live peacefully in Palestine? Then again, you're right about the obverse. Palestinians do live peacefully in Israel. They even serve on the Knesset.