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  1. #151
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Let's try to explain it to you this way. In the USA, there is a calculation for average GDP per capita. But this calculation is absolutely meaningless to me as a measure of how well I am doing, because I do not live in the average of the United States of America. I live in Houston, TX, which has its own local wage scale. And not only that, but the cost of living is different here from, say, in Los Angeles, or rural West Virginia.

    So there are different ways the averages are calculated. Some just take per capita GDP. Some take "Purchasing power parity" based upon local incomes versus local costs of goods. But since not everybody buys the same things from region to region, those measurements are inexact.

    And we also know that at times, the economy in one part of the U.S. can be doing great, while another part stinks. Right now Texas is doing OK, while Michigan is in free-fall collapse. In the 1980's, most of the country was booming, while Texas was in the oil bust.

    So, because the system is so complex, there is no mathematically rigorous means for determining how the economy is doing in the United States.

    So does that mean if the government reports the economy is growing 5%, that the report is meaningless? If unemployment goes up or down, that is irrelevant? Of course not. The changes in these factors, which provide an estimate of how the economy is doing, paint us a picture.

    Nowhere in Dr. Andersen's article did he say that the global warming debate is "political" rather than "scientific." That was inserted by the journalist. What Dr. Andersen said was that a better method was needed to calculate changes in global temperature, based upon a more rigrous model taking into account non-equilibrium thermodynamics (which happens to be his specialty).

    I don't have a problem with that assertion. The only thing I would dispute is the notion that depending on what averages one uses, one could calculate that the earth is cooling. While that might be true in the hypothetical, there is no such example provided, and it implies that there is in fact a scientifically valid such means of doing so, which he may not have meant.

    Well I think you are trying to compare apples and oranges.
    GDP is based on one country and one country only. And
    no one is telling you that the "consensus" opinion is the
    only opinion and anyone who disputes it is going to
    in a hand basket. Employment rate is the same thing.
    No one tries to base it on the world.

    Obviously, and thank goodness it did, the earth has
    warmed in the past. Otherwise we would all be living in
    the same old ice age. Obviously, if the scientist are
    correct, the polar regions were at one time were warm.
    They claim to have found fossilized warm weather plants.

    And when you have an absolute idiot such as Al Gore
    running all over the world in his jet, and leaving all those
    carbon footprints, and claims he isn't because he sells
    himself offsets, you just got to wonder. By the way,
    how much oil stock does he own NOW. Ever notice how
    these folks base everything on years from now, when
    most of us wont be around. But they say it is a crisis
    now. Come on ES, you have to use a little thing called
    common sense just once in awhile. Oh, and how bout
    how they demean respectable, learned people who
    disagree with them. Now that shows they really are
    looking at the facts, right?

  2. #152
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Well I think you are trying to compare apples and oranges.
    GDP is based on one country and one country only. And
    no one is telling you that the "consensus" opinion is the
    only opinion and anyone who disputes it is going to
    in a hand basket. Employment rate is the same thing.
    No one tries to base it on the world.

    Obviously, and thank goodness it did, the earth has
    warmed in the past. Otherwise we would all be living in
    the same old ice age. Obviously, if the scientist are
    correct, the polar regions were at one time were warm.
    They claim to have found fossilized warm weather plants.

    And when you have an absolute idiot such as Al Gore
    running all over the world in his jet, and leaving all those
    carbon footprints, and claims he isn't because he sells
    himself offsets, you just got to wonder. By the way,
    how much oil stock does he own NOW. Ever notice how
    these folks base everything on years from now, when
    most of us wont be around. But they say it is a crisis
    now. Come on ES, you have to use a little thing called
    common sense just once in awhile. Oh, and how bout
    how they demean respectable, learned people who
    disagree with them. Now that shows they really are
    looking at the facts, right?
    Yes, once upon a time the earth was much warmer. And it has been much cooler. The oxygen content of the atmosphere has been lower, and it has been higher.

    The Earth is going to survive. It has survived asteroids smacking into it, generating such heat that all the oceans disappeard, even rock vaporized into the atmosphere, completely wiping out life on the surface of the earth, so that only some underground species like bacteria survived. It has survived the entire surface freezing over. Long-term, the Earth will be fine.

    It's the short term that is the . When the Earth was warmer and the ice caps melted, the ancient equivalent of the Gulf of Mexico extended up into Saskatchewan. That is why the soil is so fertile on the Great Plains. You can go into West Texas and find fossilized coral reefs on top of mountains (not saying the water was that high.

    You've lived in South Texas for a long time, so I am certain you know about all the marine fossils one finds in the soil there.

    The evidence seems to show that at some point methane from the northern tundras gets released into the atmosphere, causing highly accelerated warming, at which point the earth reaches a new equilibrium corresponding to very warm periods millions of years ago.

    The concern is that the changes that happen naturally over a long period of time are accelerated to the point where it becomes impossible to adapt, and the lives of our descendants are enormously disrupted.

    And while there are extremists who are happy to use global warming as a political weapon either to constrain the Western powers so that the developing world can catch up, or who are opposed to the modern industrialized way of life altogether, the general consensus I have read is that our contribution to the problem can be constrained through the application of technology without substantial disruption to our way of life.

  3. #153
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    we have to ask ourselves can the sun get hotter, stronger, brighter, bigger or smaller. that is where you will find the answer to global warming, mars warming and venus inhabiting.
    Sun forcing alone doesn't add up. There is a hypothesis out there about cosmic rays causing cloud formation, and solar wind during solar maxima blocking the cosmic rays, which would increase the apparent effect of solar output.

    That hypothesis is in its nascent phase, so stay tuned.

  4. #154
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Here is a nice little article. I know it wont change any minds, but
    it says a lot for a fellow I would consider to know what he is talking
    about. And please note he receives his funding from the
    Government (make all you libs happy) and not from the mean old
    oil companies.

    MSN Tracking Image
    MSNBC.com
    Newsweek.com
    No Such Thing As a 'Perfect' Temperature
    By Richard S. Lindzen
    Newsweek International

    April 16, 2007 issue - Judging from the media in recent months, the debate over global warming is now over. There has been a net warming of the earth over the last century and a half, and our greenhouse gas emissions are contributing at some level. Both of these statements are almost certainly true. What of it? Recently many people have said that the earth is facing a crisis requiring urgent action. This statement has nothing to do with science. There is no compelling evidence that the warming trend we've seen will amount to anything close to catastrophe. What most commentators—and many scientists—seem to miss is that the only thing we can say with certainly about climate is that it changes. The earth is always warming or cooling by as much as a few tenths of a degree a year; periods of constant average temperatures are rare. Looking back on the earth's climate history, it's apparent that there's no such thing as an optimal temperature—a climate at which everything is just right. The current alarm rests on the false assumption not only that we live in a perfect world, temperaturewise, but also that our warming forecasts for the year 2040 are somehow more reliable than the weatherman's forecast for next week.

    A warmer climate could prove to be more beneficial than the one we have now. Much of the alarm over climate change is based on ignorance of what is normal for weather and climate. There is no evidence, for instance, that extreme weather events are increasing in any systematic way, according to scientists at the U.S. National Hurricane Center, the World Meteorological Organization and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (which released the second part of this year's report earlier this month). Indeed, meteorological theory holds that, outside the tropics, weather in a warming world should be less variable, which might be a good thing.

    In many other respects, the ill effects of warming are overblown. Sea levels, for example, have been increasing since the end of the last ice age. When you look at recent centuries in perspective, ignoring short-term fluctuations, the rate of sea-level rise has been relatively uniform (less than a couple of millimeters a year). There's even some evidence that the rate was higher in the first half of the twentieth century than in the second half. Overall, the risk of sea-level rise from global warming is less at almost any given location than that from other causes, such as tectonic motions of the earth's surface.

    Many of the most alarming studies rely on long-range predictions using inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week from now. Interpretations of these studies rarely consider that the impact of carbon on temperature goes down—not up—the more carbon ac ulates in the atmosphere. Even if emissions were the sole cause of the recent temperature rise—a dubious proposition—future increases wouldn't be as steep as the climb in emissions.

    Indeed, one overlooked mystery is why temperatures are not already higher. Various models predict that a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere will raise the world's average temperature by as little as 1.5 degrees Celsius or as much as 4.5 degrees. The important thing about doubled CO2 (or any other greenhouse gas) is its "forcing"—its contribution to warming. At present, the greenhouse forcing is already about three-quarters of what one would get from a doubling of CO2. But average temperatures rose only about 0.6 degrees since the beginning of the industrial era, and the change hasn't been uniform—warming has largely occurred during the periods from 1919 to 1940 and from 1976 to 1998, with cooling in between. Researchers have been unable to explain this discrepancy.

    Modelers claim to have simulated the warming and cooling that occurred before 1976 by choosing among various guesses as to what effect poorly observed volcanoes and unmeasured output from the sun have had. These factors, they claim, don't explain the warming of about 0.4 degrees C between 1976 and 1998. Climate modelers assume the cause must be greenhouse-gas emissions because they have no other explanation. This is a poor subs ute for evidence, and simulation hardly cons utes explanation. Ten years ago climate modelers also couldn't account for the warming that occurred from about 1050 to 1300. They tried to expunge the medieval warm period from the observational record—an effort that is now generally discredited. The models have also severely underestimated short-term variability El Niño and the Intraseasonal Oscillation. Such phenomena illustrate the ability of the complex and turbulent climate system to vary significantly with no external cause whatever, and to do so over many years, even centuries.

    Is there any point in pretending that CO2 increases will be catastrophic? Or could they be modest and on balance beneficial? India has warmed during the second half of the 20th century, and agricultural output has increased greatly. Infectious diseases like malaria are a matter not so much of temperature as poverty and public-health policies (like eliminating DDT). Exposure to cold is generally found to be both more dangerous and less comfortable.

    Moreover, actions taken thus far to reduce emissions have already had negative consequences without improving our ability to adapt to climate change. An emphasis on ethanol, for instance, has led to angry protests against corn-price increases in Mexico, and forest clearing and habitat destruction in Southeast Asia. Carbon caps are likely to lead to increased prices, as well as corruption associated with permit trading. (Enron was a leading lobbyist for Kyoto because it had hoped to capitalize on emissions trading.) The alleged solutions have more potential for catastrophe than the putative problem. The conclusion of the late climate scientist Roger Revelle—Al Gore's supposed mentor—is worth pondering: the evidence for global warming thus far doesn't warrant any action unless it is justifiable on grounds that have nothing to do with climate.

    Lindzen is the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Ins ute of Technology. His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.
    © 2007 Newsweek, Inc.

    URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17997788/site/newsweek/
    © 2007 MSNBC.com

    So stick by my guns. The global warming whaco's want only one
    thing to control as many people lives as possible and implement
    their little "progressive" theories.

  5. #155
    U Have Bad Understanding Sportcamper's Avatar
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    We must stop the global warming....



    Seattle Mariners designated hitter Jose Vidro, front, from left, Jose Lopez, Adrian Beltre, and Richie Sexson lie in the snow at Jacobs Field, Sunday, April 8, 2007, in Cleveland. Mariners' Carlos Garcia is at upper left. For the second day in a row, global warming has forced a doubleheader between the Mariners and Indians to be postponed...

  6. #156
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Well not to worry the Law Makers have everything under control.

    Boston.com THIS STORY HAS BEEN FORMATTED FOR EASY PRINTING
    The Boston Globe
    Bill ties climate to national security
    Seeks assessments by CIA, Pentagon

    By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff | April 9, 2007

    WASHINGTON -- The CIA and Pentagon would for the first time be required to assess the national security implications of climate change under proposed legislation intended to elevate global warming to a national defense issue.

    The bipartisan proposal, which its sponsors expect to pass the Congress with wide support, calls for the director of national intelligence to conduct the first-ever "national intelligence estimate" on global warming.

    The effort would include pinpointing the regions at highest risk of humanitarian suffering and assessing the likelihood of wars erupting over diminishing water and other resources.

    The measure also would order the Pentagon to undertake a series of war games to determine how global climate change could affect US security, including "direct physical threats to the United States posed by extreme weather events such as hurricanes."

    The growing attention to global warming as a national security issue could open new avenues of support for tougher efforts to limit greenhouse gases, according to specialists.

    "If you get the intelligence community to apply some of its analytic capabilities to this issue, it could be compelling to whoever is sitting in the White House," said Anne Harrington , director of the committee on international security at the National Academy of Sciences in Washington. "If the White House does not absorb the independent scientific expertise, then maybe something from the intelligence community might have more weight."

    The measure, sponsored by Senator Chuck Hagel , a Nebraska Republican, and Senator Richard J. Durbin , an Illinois Democrat, comes as other international bodies are taking steps to designate global warming as a high international priority.

    The United Nations Security Council has put climate change on its agenda for the first time, warning that global warming could be a catalyst for new conflicts around the world. The council said it would hold a high-level meeting on the issue later this month.

    "The traditional triggers of conflict which exist out there are likely to be exacerbated by the effect of climate change," said Emyr Jones Parry, Britain's UN ambassador.

    The push in the United States to treat global warming as a national security threat follows the same path as previous efforts to treat the spread of AIDS as a security threat. The disease was long seen as exclusively a health issue until intelligence officials warned that it could ravage military forces across Africa and draw the United States into conflict.

    Growing concerns about the implications of global warming have also led some Republicans and Democrats to give the issue far more prominence in policy circles.

    "For years, many of us have examined global warming as an environmental or economic issue," Durbin said in little-noticed remarks last month. "We also need to consider it as a security concern."

    The intelligence assessment, or NIE -- to be drafted by US spy agencies -- would rely on the latest scientific data. It would identify places where nations or ethnic groups are most likely to fight over resources; where large migrations of victims will occur; how global warming would affect global food supplies; and the increased risks to humans from infectious disease.

    Ross Feinstein , a spokesman for the director of national intelligence, said that intelligence analysts have studied global warming in the past but in a limited way. Greater priority, he said, has been given to what are considered more pressing threats to security, such as nuclear proliferation, global terrorism, and the war in Iraq.

    However, in 2003, two Pentagon analysts wrote a provocative report on the possible national security implications of an abrupt change in the climate, citing, among other outcomes, the prospect of nuclear powers struggling to feed their people and being forced to fight over shared rivers.

    "With over 200 river basins touching multiple nations, we can expect conflict over access to water for drinking, irrigation, and transportation," the analysts wrote. "The Danube touches 12 nations, the Nile runs through nine, and the Amazon runs through seven."

    The proposal would go further than any previous investigation, requiring the Pentagon to assess in great detail how global warming could damage America's military preparedness, such as the effect of melting Arctic ice sheets on the Navy.

    David G. Hawkins , director of the Climate Center at the Natural Resources Defense Council, said some emerging research suggests that dramatic changes in ocean temperatures could hamper the ability of warships to operate in some regions of the world.

    "[Submarines] take advantage of the ocean having certain characteristics," Hawkins said. "You could wind up with weapons that are no longer optimal because they were designed for the climate that existed thirty years before."

    Sponsors of the Senate measure say it is likely to be approved, given the wide support for charting the impact of climate change and the traditional reluctance of lawmakers to stand in the way of research into national security.

    Representative Edward J. Markey, a Malden Democrat and chairman of the newly created House Select Committee on Energy Dependence and Global Warming, said he plans to offer a companion bill in the House.

    "The Pentagon has plans for every conceivable -- and often inconceivable -- contingency," Markey said in an interview, adding that the possibility of disasters related to climate change must be taken into account.

    In addition, some leading military thinkers, including retired Air Force General Charles Wald, have voiced support for bringing the national security bureaucracy into the debate over global warming. Wald is former deputy commander of the US European Command and a specialist on security issues in Africa.

    John J. Hamre , who served as deputy secretary of defense in the Clinton administration, said global warming couched in security terms would make if far more difficult for politicians to ignore.

    "What makes this interesting is the clear effort to make the politics of global warming broader," said Hamre, who is now president of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "There are legitimate security issues associated with this question."

    Bryan Bender can be reached at [email protected].
    © Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company

  7. #157
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Why So Gloomy?

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17997788/site/newsweek/

    GUEST OPINION
    By Richard S. Lindzen
    Special to Newsweek

    April 16, 2007 issue - Judging from the media in recent months, the debate over global warming is now over. There has been a net warming of the earth over the last century and a half, and our greenhouse gas emissions are contributing at some level. Both of these statements are almost certainly true. What of it? Recently many people have said that the earth is facing a crisis requiring urgent action. This statement has nothing to do with science. There is no compelling evidence that the warming trend we've seen will amount to anything close to catastrophe. What most commentators—and many scientists—seem to miss is that the only thing we can say with certainly about climate is that it changes. The earth is always warming or cooling by as much as a few tenths of a degree a year; periods of constant average temperatures are rare. Looking back on the earth's climate history, it's apparent that there's no such thing as an optimal temperature—a climate at which everything is just right. The current alarm rests on the false assumption not only that we live in a perfect world, temperaturewise, but also that our warming forecasts for the year 2040 are somehow more reliable than the weatherman's forecast for next week.


    A warmer climate could prove to be more beneficial than the one we have now. Much of the alarm over climate change is based on ignorance of what is normal for weather and climate. There is no evidence, for instance, that extreme weather events are increasing in any systematic way, according to scientists at the U.S. National Hurricane Center, the World Meteorological Organization and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (which released the second part of this year's report earlier this month). Indeed, meteorological theory holds that, outside the tropics, weather in a warming world should be less variable, which might be a good thing.

    In many other respects, the ill effects of warming are overblown. Sea levels, for example, have been increasing since the end of the last ice age. When you look at recent centuries in perspective, ignoring short-term fluctuations, the rate of sea-level rise has been relatively uniform (less than a couple of millimeters a year). There's even some evidence that the rate was higher in the first half of the twentieth century than in the second half. Overall, the risk of sea-level rise from global warming is less at almost any given location than that from other causes, such as tectonic motions of the earth's surface.

    Many of the most alarming studies rely on long-range predictions using inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week from now. Interpretations of these studies rarely consider that the impact of carbon on temperature goes down—not up—the more carbon ac ulates in the atmosphere. Even if emissions were the sole cause of the recent temperature rise—a dubious proposition—future increases wouldn't be as steep as the climb in emissions.

    Indeed, one overlooked mystery is why temperatures are not already higher. Various models predict that a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere will raise the world's average temperature by as little as 1.5 degrees Celsius or as much as 4.5 degrees. The important thing about doubled CO2 (or any other greenhouse gas) is its "forcing"—its contribution to warming. At present, the greenhouse forcing is already about three-quarters of what one would get from a doubling of CO2. But average temperatures rose only about 0.6 degrees since the beginning of the industrial era, and the change hasn't been uniform—warming has largely occurred during the periods from 1919 to 1940 and from 1976 to 1998, with cooling in between. Researchers have been unable to explain this discrepancy.

    Modelers claim to have simulated the warming and cooling that occurred before 1976 by choosing among various guesses as to what effect poorly observed volcanoes and unmeasured output from the sun have had. These factors, they claim, don't explain the warming of about 0.4 degrees C between 1976 and 1998. Climate modelers assume the cause must be greenhouse-gas emissions because they have no other explanation. This is a poor subs ute for evidence, and simulation hardly cons utes explanation. Ten years ago climate modelers also couldn't account for the warming that occurred from about 1050 to 1300. They tried to expunge the medieval warm period from the observational record—an effort that is now generally discredited. The models have also severely underestimated short-term variability El Niño and the Intraseasonal Oscillation. Such phenomena illustrate the ability of the complex and turbulent climate system to vary significantly with no external cause whatever, and to do so over many years, even centuries.

    Is there any point in pretending that CO2 increases will be catastrophic? Or could they be modest and on balance beneficial? India has warmed during the second half of the 20th century, and agricultural output has increased greatly. Infectious diseases like malaria are a matter not so much of temperature as poverty and public-health policies (like eliminating DDT). Exposure to cold is generally found to be both more dangerous and less comfortable.

    Moreover, actions taken thus far to reduce emissions have already had negative consequences without improving our ability to adapt to climate change. An emphasis on ethanol, for instance, has led to angry protests against corn-price increases in Mexico, and forest clearing and habitat destruction in Southeast Asia. Carbon caps are likely to lead to increased prices, as well as corruption associated with permit trading. (Enron was a leading lobbyist for Kyoto because it had hoped to capitalize on emissions trading.) The alleged solutions have more potential for catastrophe than the putative problem. The conclusion of the late climate scientist Roger Revelle—Al Gore's supposed mentor—is worth pondering: the evidence for global warming thus far doesn't warrant any action unless it is justifiable on grounds that have nothing to do with climate.

    Lindzen is the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Ins ute of Technology. His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.

    © 2007 Newsweek, Inc.

  8. #158
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Well all I can say is global warming is back in San Antonio today.
    The sun is shining bright, it is nice and warm out at 9:30 in the
    morning (61 degs) and predicted to go to 83 degs. Ahhhh, I love
    global warming.

  9. #159
    U Have Bad Understanding Sportcamper's Avatar
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    A city plow drive past some tulips during a spring snowstorm Wednesday, April 11, 2007, in Milwaukee. Another spring snowstorm spread across the upper Midwest on Wednesday, closing schools and grounding more airplanes...


  10. #160
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    A city plow drive past some tulips during a spring snowstorm Wednesday, April 11, 2007, in Milwaukee. Another spring snowstorm spread across the upper Midwest on Wednesday, closing schools and grounding more airplanes...

    see that proves it! all the science isn't in yet

  11. #161
    Believe. George W. Bush's Avatar
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    Come on, if Global Warming were real it wouldn't be so cold today, in TEXAS for crying out loud!, my family has land north of Dallas and its snowing!
    Thats what I tell my people...

  12. #162
    Maaaaaannnn fuck.... E20's Avatar
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    Global Warming is the stupidest thing to argue about. There is no way 'Global Warming' will affect us RIGHT NOW, besides a .5 rise in temperature. Maybe in 3000 years or I don't know maybe more, but not right now and by then I'm sure there will be alternative sources of fuel or not. Who knows? But, arguing about Global Warming or giving it as much attention as it's getting right now is a waste of time.

  13. #163
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    You simply don't understand the complexities of our environment. A 2 to 3 degree change in average temps can have dramatic effect on the climate because of an natural exponential effect that occurs in the temp cycles. Not only will it lead to melting polar icecaps, it will lead to record droughts, already forcast for the growing southwest region of the U.S. which could see rain taper off to levels not seen since the dust-bowl days. Except this time, it will be perminent.

  14. #164
    Believe. mullet's Avatar
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    ill tell you what... a lil heat in the winter and some ocean front property in a few years doesnt sound too bad

  15. #165
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    ill tell you what... a lil heat in the winter and some ocean front property in a few years doesnt sound too bad
    How does a few 5-megaton Hurricanes sound?

  16. #166
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    How does a few 5-megaton Hurricanes sound?
    Like you still have no idea what you're talking about even after many attempts to explain it to you.

  17. #167
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    You simply don't understand the complexities of our environment. A 2 to 3 degree change in average temps can have dramatic effect on the climate because of an natural exponential effect that occurs in the temp cycles. Not only will it lead to melting polar icecaps, it will lead to record droughts, already forcast for the growing southwest region of the U.S. which could see rain taper off to levels not seen since the dust-bowl days. Except this time, it will be perminent.


    Citation please?

  18. #168
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I'm so sick of idiots like NBADan when it comes to this subject. They cloud it so much with their unsubstantiated claims when there are real pertinent and pressing issues. Five megaton hurricanes? WTF? One look at the energy released by hurricanes would show you why such a statement is moronic. Here's a hint, 5 megatons would be an insane reduction in force. Permanent changes to the Earth's environment? WTF? When did it become a closed system?

    No wonder there are people who still deny it when you consider idiotic claims made.

  19. #169
    Hey Bruce... Lebron is the Rock Sec24Row7's Avatar
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    Dan, no one is talking about Dihydrogen Monoxide, and I havent seen you mention it either. It contributes more to the greenhouse effect than CO2 and Methane COMBINED.

    Do you feel that politicians should add it to be monitored in the clean air act?

  20. #170
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Why So Gloomy?

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17997788/site/newsweek/

    GUEST OPINION
    By Richard S. Lindzen
    Special to Newsweek

    April 16, 2007 issue - Judging from the media in recent months, the debate over global warming is now over. There has been a net warming of the earth over the last century and a half, and our greenhouse gas emissions are contributing at some level. Both of these statements are almost certainly true. What of it? Recently many people have said that the earth is facing a crisis requiring urgent action. This statement has nothing to do with science. There is no compelling evidence that the warming trend we've seen will amount to anything close to catastrophe. What most commentators—and many scientists—seem to miss is that the only thing we can say with certainly about climate is that it changes. The earth is always warming or cooling by as much as a few tenths of a degree a year; periods of constant average temperatures are rare. Looking back on the earth's climate history, it's apparent that there's no such thing as an optimal temperature—a climate at which everything is just right. The current alarm rests on the false assumption not only that we live in a perfect world, temperaturewise, but also that our warming forecasts for the year 2040 are somehow more reliable than the weatherman's forecast for next week.


    A warmer climate could prove to be more beneficial than the one we have now. Much of the alarm over climate change is based on ignorance of what is normal for weather and climate. There is no evidence, for instance, that extreme weather events are increasing in any systematic way, according to scientists at the U.S. National Hurricane Center, the World Meteorological Organization and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (which released the second part of this year's report earlier this month). Indeed, meteorological theory holds that, outside the tropics, weather in a warming world should be less variable, which might be a good thing.

    In many other respects, the ill effects of warming are overblown. Sea levels, for example, have been increasing since the end of the last ice age. When you look at recent centuries in perspective, ignoring short-term fluctuations, the rate of sea-level rise has been relatively uniform (less than a couple of millimeters a year). There's even some evidence that the rate was higher in the first half of the twentieth century than in the second half. Overall, the risk of sea-level rise from global warming is less at almost any given location than that from other causes, such as tectonic motions of the earth's surface.

    Many of the most alarming studies rely on long-range predictions using inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week from now. Interpretations of these studies rarely consider that the impact of carbon on temperature goes down—not up—the more carbon ac ulates in the atmosphere. Even if emissions were the sole cause of the recent temperature rise—a dubious proposition—future increases wouldn't be as steep as the climb in emissions.

    Indeed, one overlooked mystery is why temperatures are not already higher. Various models predict that a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere will raise the world's average temperature by as little as 1.5 degrees Celsius or as much as 4.5 degrees. The important thing about doubled CO2 (or any other greenhouse gas) is its "forcing"—its contribution to warming. At present, the greenhouse forcing is already about three-quarters of what one would get from a doubling of CO2. But average temperatures rose only about 0.6 degrees since the beginning of the industrial era, and the change hasn't been uniform—warming has largely occurred during the periods from 1919 to 1940 and from 1976 to 1998, with cooling in between. Researchers have been unable to explain this discrepancy.

    Modelers claim to have simulated the warming and cooling that occurred before 1976 by choosing among various guesses as to what effect poorly observed volcanoes and unmeasured output from the sun have had. These factors, they claim, don't explain the warming of about 0.4 degrees C between 1976 and 1998. Climate modelers assume the cause must be greenhouse-gas emissions because they have no other explanation. This is a poor subs ute for evidence, and simulation hardly cons utes explanation. Ten years ago climate modelers also couldn't account for the warming that occurred from about 1050 to 1300. They tried to expunge the medieval warm period from the observational record—an effort that is now generally discredited. The models have also severely underestimated short-term variability El Niño and the Intraseasonal Oscillation. Such phenomena illustrate the ability of the complex and turbulent climate system to vary significantly with no external cause whatever, and to do so over many years, even centuries.

    Is there any point in pretending that CO2 increases will be catastrophic? Or could they be modest and on balance beneficial? India has warmed during the second half of the 20th century, and agricultural output has increased greatly. Infectious diseases like malaria are a matter not so much of temperature as poverty and public-health policies (like eliminating DDT). Exposure to cold is generally found to be both more dangerous and less comfortable.

    Moreover, actions taken thus far to reduce emissions have already had negative consequences without improving our ability to adapt to climate change. An emphasis on ethanol, for instance, has led to angry protests against corn-price increases in Mexico, and forest clearing and habitat destruction in Southeast Asia. Carbon caps are likely to lead to increased prices, as well as corruption associated with permit trading. (Enron was a leading lobbyist for Kyoto because it had hoped to capitalize on emissions trading.) The alleged solutions have more potential for catastrophe than the putative problem. The conclusion of the late climate scientist Roger Revelle—Al Gore's supposed mentor—is worth pondering: the evidence for global warming thus far doesn't warrant any action unless it is justifiable on grounds that have nothing to do with climate.

    Lindzen is the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Ins ute of Technology. His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.

    © 2007 Newsweek, Inc.
    Manny, not everyone buys into the global warming theory as a wholistically man-made problem. When I mentioned that professors from my alma mater were divided on the issue - people here didn't believe me. Here is one such professor.
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 04-13-2007 at 11:34 AM.

  21. #171
    Maaaaaannnn fuck.... E20's Avatar
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    You simply don't understand the complexities of our environment. A 2 to 3 degree change in average temps can have dramatic effect on the climate because of an natural exponential effect that occurs in the temp cycles. Not only will it lead to melting polar icecaps, it will lead to record droughts, already forcast for the growing southwest region of the U.S. which could see rain taper off to levels not seen since the dust-bowl days. Except this time, it will be perminent.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that from the movie The Day After Tommorow, and that movie, from what I've heard, was horribly inaccurate and a bad movie all together.

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    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Hector, much of what you posted there is what I've been posting for awhile now - especially in regards to the overlooked positive aspects of a warmer Earth. You don't think that the people in Siberia would like a much warmer climate? Imagine the agricultural boom that would be possible. Global Climate Change saves the human race from hunger!

    All that being said, CO2 emissions are dangerous for reasons outside of climate. The oceans dying is my number one concern.

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    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Hector, much of what you posted there is what I've been posting for awhile now - especially in regards to the overlooked positive aspects of a warmer Earth. You don't think that the people in Siberia would like a much warmer climate? Imagine the agricultural boom that would be possible. Global Climate Change saves the human race from hunger!

    All that being said, CO2 emissions are dangerous for reasons outside of climate. The oceans dying is my number one concern.
    As is the case with my concerns.... I just don't buy into catastrophic models that serve to scare people more than they do to drive a change in their energy habits.

  24. #174
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Sensationalism is good media. Good science isn't.

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    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that from the movie The Day After Tommorow, and that movie, from what I've heard, was horribly inaccurate and a bad movie all together.
    Data shows that historical es in global temp, pre-empted by global rises in CO2, are followed by mini-ice-ages. Go figure. Except it's over the course of centuries. Remember that the Earth is a living breathing thing, just like you, it is very giving and forgiving, but if push comes to shove, the Earth will do what it takes for it to survive, even if that means getting rid of us.

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