Bill Russell played in and era with what, like 8 teams?
Anyways, I'm not arguing this no more. I thought you actually had a point to your argument, but now, it seems you are just finding some pointless to nitpick about, and prove how ignorant of a person you really are.
What the ? Your talking bad about a guy for making his team better?
Isn't the point of basketball team success?
Are you really this re ed?
Quite possibly.
That goes by the assumption that 89-90 season and 90-91 season, all players played exactly the same. Which is untrue.
You can't tell the difference between team success and making his teammates better? And you can't understand that saying a person didn't make his teammates better is not talking bad about a guy?
Are you really this re ed?
Ignorant how? Ignorant in terms of not knowing enough basketball history, which I can't really see how it was shown.
Russell played in an era with 8 teams, so? Still won 11 of 13. Still has about the same or more accomplishments than Jordan.
And Kareem, Magic, Bird all had impressive resumes, can't conclusively say that Jordan was THE most accomplished player of all time. One of them, true.
why wouldn't they? what possiby could happen that would make the Bulls far superior to the Pistons in a few months time?
Pistons got worse? Players got old, Isiah got hurt. The Pistons don't just go from winning almost 60 to 50 in a year because they got better.
And the original point was that Jordan was that factor that made the Bulls much better without making other components significantly better. I am absolutely baffled at how sensitive people could become the second it is said that Jordan was not perfect in anyway.
I was going to say his cologne sucks, but I am not even going to go into that, next thing I know, there will be voodoo dolls with my name on it.
right. the Bulls couldn't possibly have gotten better. saying the players on the Bulls got better would of course be admitting that the undoubted leader of the Bulls just might have had an influence in that.
seriously, you're just being a dumb about this now. I thought you were gonna stick to an intelligent discussion but with this bull , you can off.
you never said significantly better. you said flat out that he didn't make his teammates better. no significant anywhere.
He did make his teammates better. He taught them how to win.
Just because he wasn't a point guard racking up 15 assists per game getting his teammates shots doesn't mean he didn't make them better. The Lakers are pretty much a modern version of what the Bulls would have been if Jordan wasn't a team player. Jordan and Kobe, 2 players of equal talent, one is the most compe ive player ever and one is probably the most selfish. It takes a team to win, and to say Jordan ballhogged and bad mouthed his teammates to 6 championships is laughable.
Since when did I say Jordan ballhogged and bad-mouthed his teammates to 6 championships? I am saying what Kobe is doing now is similar to what Jordan did in the past.
And no, I am not even looking at assist numbers. I remember Jordan had quite a number of assists, especially for a shooting guard, but assists doesn't necessary make teammates better. Marbury, Iverson and Steve Francis rack up a decent amount of assists in their time, doesn't make their teammates that much better.
Finally, making your team win does not make players better. How did Jordan teach them to win? Jackson taught Jordan to win, and win he did because he was so talented and his team was so well-constructed. Jordan didn't teach, Jackson did.
Kerr, Perdue, and Harper were the only ones who played any significant roles on championship teams afterwards (off the top of my head, may have missed some). Harper played with Jackson during his Laker days, so the Jackson role was consistent, then Kerr played sparingly with the Spurs, and got a shining chance in 03, while Perdue was a good 3rd center with the Spurs in 99. But did Jordan teach the Wizards to win? They crashed and burned.
lol, 6 rings
eh this is the first time you're using "similar" as well in describing Jordan with Kobe. previously your term du jour was "exactly the same"....see below.
as far as the last quote goes, i don't think anybody has failed to acknowledge that Jordan could be a jerk. That still doesn't make him a bad teammate in the vein of Kobe, and it doesn't mean he couldn't make his teammates better. Many of the world's greatest leaders in any profession were jerks.
My only real contribution to this running argument is that in their primes, they are about even in talent and ability. They are also both complete alpha males...but while Jordan was able to put aside some of his instincts to take over and do things himself and buy into the triangle and trust his teammates, Kobe never has been able to do that.
Jordan was completely secure about himself, his place in the game and his abilities to blend his talents with the team concept. Despite Kobe's talent and his confidence that he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, on the court, Kobe is insecure as all get out, insecure about how other players view him, insecure about his legacy, insecure about how he is viewed by fans and the media, etc. Jordan was certainly very calculating about what he said and did in regards to his public image, but he was at peace with himself in a way that Kobe never has been.
lock the thread. after this, nothing else needs to be said.
As long as we all agree that Jordan was a jerk, then this is settled. I was sick of hearing how Jordan was so driven and his whole goal was to win when in fact, he has said that he wants to win with himself being the main reason. The man was very consciously trying to win for his own glory.
And yes, after the Game 7 example of brought up, I can no longer say they were exactly the same, it has been downgraded to similar.
I agree with everything that was said in your post, and at least you did mention Jordan's selfish tendancies early on in his career before Jackson took over.
He later had a perfect running mate in Pippen who had the skills, talent and style of play that compliments Jordan's, resulting in Jordan loosening his grip on the team. Kobe doesn't have the same level of talent next to him since Shaq.
Shaq >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pippen.
If Jordan had Shaq, even with all the retirement years, he would have had well over 6 les. And he wouldn't have destroyed a dream team either. Yet another difference between him and Kobe. Kobe could only get 3 with Shaq, then proceeded to an entire team up with his piss poor at ude. You can't say anything like that about Jordan, and there is no way he would have pissed such an opportunity away, considering how his only issue with the Bulls was that they couldn't get him enough quality talent. Kobe wanted less talent to showcase his skills that everyone already knew of, and didn't really care about, unless he is winning rings.
That's bull . Jordan had one of the biggest egos ever in the history of sports. No way would he allow another player be as important as him, much less more important than him. He's just like Kobe in that regard. A Jordan in his prime could not play with a Shaq in his prime. Neither would want to play second fiddle. Jordan won because he was never challenged as the team's go-to guy. Shaq would have done that. And, Michael would not have liked that or allowed it.
Kobe also has one of the biggest ego's in sports history. His ego destroyed a team. Jordan didn't ever do that. Kobe wanted less talent to showcase his skills. Jordan wanted more talent to win.
As you may have noticed, Pistons' and Pacers' fans are not so enamored of MJ as the rest of the NBA world.
Another thing, Kobe came into the league as an unproven high schooler, and it took him a few years to develop into the player he became in the years they won les, and Shaq was there for those developing years.
Jordan walked into the league, and immediately started averaging nearly 30 ppg, and very quickly established himself as the best talent in the league, and a deadly scorer/defender.
The Lakers was already Shaq's team, and Kobe was trying to take it for himself, and wouldn't play team ball with Shaq. That was the issue between those two. Also, Kobe has always been known for piss poor shot selection. Jordan was selfish, but still had a MUCH better shot selection than Kobe. Not to mention he was averaging over 50% shooting. Jordans greedy issues wasn't that he was taking dumb shots that were more than likely not going to go in, like Kobe's. Jordan's issues was that even though he was scoring so well, if he got the team involved more, then opposing defenses would have to respect those guys more, thus helping give Jordan more room to work with in clutch situations.
We noticed. Jealous homers...
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
