Can he drink?
Mouse? He drinks his peach brandy with flies in it...
No joke.
I'm just saying that Diego kind of debunked your entire point about the Yugoslavian team being the bigger threat.
Well...for now at least...Argentina is better than the US in basketball...and yes, it is annoying. Really annoying.
So you are saying Argentina is better than USA and it's not annoying?
It's wouldn't be a big deal if it was Soccer...but what Argentina did in 04 was the biggest upset in Olympic Baketball History.....even if they were the favorite.
Sorry to hear. I'm not even going to try to joke about that.
Anyway, it's well past midnight over here. I'm done with my English practice for today. Must go to sleep, tomorrow I have to get up early, to earn a part of that 20.000 € you were talking about.
Yes I gave a link. And I didn't talk about wining streak. I have just said In late 80's and early 90's YU was even better than USSR. I gave a link to prove that.
And the same was in late 70's an early 80's.
But I never claim that one nation is better forever. There are ups and downs.
And I never claim that wasn't Sabonis and USSR win in 88 who indirectly lead to Dream Team No.1. And the "war" between USA and USSR. I know all about that. Never.
But I still think that in that time YU was even better than USSR. (74-80, 89-91). And if your greatest opponent is USSR, and one can not admit that there is even better team.... What would you like from me to say? I know those things. You never say or prove you know them too?
I ask you about players before 90's...ok you have those 2 in your list but they were playing in 90's too. Who are the idols of all that Lithuanian, Russian, Yugo , Argentina, Brassil late 80's and early 90's players and international stars. You can imagine Sabonis, Kukoc, Petro...at age 10-15. They were all very excited watching EC, WC and Oly. finals, semis, even classification rounds. They have their idols too. And they don't think they have accomplished something better than their idols, given the cir stances their idols live in.
OT. Best international players. One should say "after Dream Team" or "from 88 on"
But it was never "what was the thing which lead to creation of DT No.1?" topic.
I am from Slovenia. Did I mention any Slovene player? Maybe because they don't deserve it to be in this thread.
Slovenija was a part of Yugoslavia, yes.
What do you know about "YU vs USSR" from 1948 to 1980? Do you think that this was anything smaller thing in Yugoslavia citizens eyes than "USSR vs USA" in your eyes?
If you read all what I was saying, I don't think Slomo is on your side in this one. OT of coarse.
The greatest: Sabonis.
I'll talk about Manu, TP and Dirk when they retire.
I remember that Soviet team from '88. They had their big three in Sabonis, Marciulionis, and Volkov. They were damn good. But of course, they were pros.
Anyone remember watching Oscar Schmidt? I remember watching a tournament that he absolutely dominated. I always wondered why he never made it to the NBA.
Oscar Schmidt is a LEGEND! There is not many people that could do what he did back then.
I remember he had incredible range on his jump shot.
Not an easy task boy.
Not easy at all.
i think for both ARG and USA the tough task will be getting rid of Spain first... don;tget me wrong.. i am a golden generation homie but... Spain is the only team that has their number...
I hate to break it to you, but I have a feeling that your team is past their expiration date. Wolkowyski, Sanchez and Prigoni are on their last legs. Manu, Oberto, Delfino and Scola are "fat" (I mean that they don't have to prove nothing to nobody). They already are Olympic champions.
This Argentinian team has all the tools needed, but I seriously doubt they still have that desire. The same story happened to the last World champions, Greeks. They looked really "old" and washed up in this years European championships. I hope I am wrong, because there isn't many teams that can give USA some trouble in winning their Olympic gold. I only see Argentina, Spain and maybe Lithuania with some crazy day. And we all know what is the real question in any games for the rest of the world. Can anybody surprise USA?
true Spain has a great team. And they are the actual world Champs.(Chapu missed a wide open shot from the corner in the last sec vs. Spain in the semis.)
But I got the feeling Beijim will be a total diferent deal though.
Manu is having right now his best NBA season,even better tham 2004/2005 when we won the gold medal in Athems.
Oberto is also having his best NBA season as well.
Delfino finally got some playing time by being traded to the Raps,and he been playing great for the last 5 or 6 games.
Chapu is being the only one stepping up for the bulls this year.
And Scola finally got a chance to play at the best BB level,and He's getting used to play with real big men.
Same for Herrmann,He showed that when given minutes he can put some big numbers.
We'll see what happens,to me the Beijim Arg team will be in better shape tham the 2006 world championship team.
Last edited by ArgSpursFan.; 12-04-2007 at 08:37 AM.
maybe USA has the best players individually.QUOTE=sendman]They already are Olympic champions.
But we'll see who's got the best TEAM.
yes,Spain and Argentina are very capable to beat USA team under FIBA rules.Can anybody surprise USA?
oscar schmidt said many times, that he didnt have nba athleticism, and would not go to be a bench warming, 5 mpg type of guy. some euro pro teammates told him about their nba experiences and he concluded no one would pass to him and he'd barely play 10 min. for a guy used to being the #1 option, that was no good. he still got offers particularly after he upset a US junior team and torched them for 40-some points (i think drob was on that team). i guess he knew his limitations!
anyways oscar had a long career and supposedly scored something ridiculous, i cant remember the numbers but supposedly almost twice than kareem abdul jabbar (outside the nba, of course).
oh, and whottt was right, kibic is totally ignoring my responses, and being quite rude in my humble opinion. kibic accuses of whottt of being disrespectful, when he has done nothing but attack the american team and its fans. since when is beating the US junior and collegiate teams a great success?? why do you take "great " when you do? why is it that team accomplishments dont matter comparing players, but if parker's france loses to a slovenia B team it means he is a bad player? anyways, carry on ignoring me
Oscar was one of my fabs FIBA players back in the 80's and 90's. He had probably the best fiba range of all times.
High BBIQ and ball handling,but poor D. and athletisism, and that would've killed him in the NBA.
tell me about it... i couldn't believe the open shot he missed... i cryied as i wanted them to have won it all... the ONLY team in history to have been in semi finals of the last three important bkb FIBA international championships... and i HATE the Spaniards more since then... (never liked their y at ude and their coach is a prick).. it will all depend on the desire they have come money time against them (both USA and SPA)... i am SUPER sure they won;t underestimate them this time... and they'll get the whole treatment... the match they lost for the 3rd position in the world cup counts even less than the final lost in lats america's championship... Manu was really pissed they have to play the following day in the morning.. got in foul trouble early.. and actually the game was tied at halftime... then we ran out of legs...
I am really sorry. You have must misunderstood me. I have never attack USA team and their fans. Maybe I wrote something wrong. I think that DT No.1 is the greatest team ever.
All other is just speculations of coarse.
About accomplishments. I'll give you one example why I think they doesn't count so much in this category of players.
We have one Oscar Schmidt, Drazen Petrovic, Sabonis…who were all great players in their time. They never accomplished anything in NBA of course. Then we have Beno Udrih who has 2 rings. We even have a lot of great NBA players never won NBA le. When Drazen came in NBA as a great European Superstar he first has to sit down for 2 seasons. Portland has Drexler and Porter on his position already. Drexler himself say Drazen can play from first minute big minutes if talent, competiveness were in question. Porter was so scare of losing his position he played ill and injured. On trainings he gives them both big troubles. How can we compare his position and accomplishments with today’s Gasol, Parker, Calderon and others? Just wouldn't be fair.
But with international players we have a great opportunity to compare them in international compe ions when they play against each other. These day's players.
We can directly compare Parker Tony with Dragic as they play this summer. TP is much, much better. (But when it counts…he missed his FT). But I can't even imagine comparing Drazen Petrovic with this generation of Slovenian players. It is ridiculous. Even if we maybe could? So these great gaps happened where marketing came in game.
We are exposed to NBA great marketing machine all over the year. All those dunks, expectations, great blocks, 40pts, 45 pts…great series in playoffs…internet, magazines TV, forums…10 best dunks, 10 best blocks, 10 best buzzer shots …best 100 seconds from 100 hours of play….big contracts..10 mil. $ Per year… Marketing did his job really well...Man…It seems those players are so good, so good they can't even be compared to someone from Euroleague who American fan can hardly ever seen. But then..What?
Then comes Olympics or WC. Big paradox happened. Those players who everyone on EART can see their plays all over the year have to play against some players they have never saw them before. Marketing did the damage on TD, James, Boozer, Iverson, Mel o…(not as much on Manu or TP, they know quite well what to expect…)
Qualifying round…saluting after each dunk… It is really nice patriotic thing to do. But it shows little respect for opponent. Great motivation action…for opponents of course. And then eventually come a game where you a little underestimate your opponent, not you best shooting day..And a great day of your opponent. On these tournaments you have 5 to 6 teams who will really surprise you with their skills, especially if they have a great form that day. Not to lose even one of these 4 to 5 games is really something special. Every 4 years!!! You lose it. And someone else gets GOLD. No meter who. They all play against you with great respect. But you can't motivate you if you are ignorant about their skills! They know everything about you. They at firs even think that Le Bron will dunk on every possession. They think that will be good if they lose with margin lesser than 30-20.
Of course this was in 1992. Today it is 2007. International teams know there is no gap any more. USA team has their brain washed every year...Remember NBA marketing?
Make no mistake. I don't say there is better team than USA. But …take into account all written above. Last 3 times they think they take into account everything needed. We all know how it ended.
Of course an ARG fan knows a lot of excellent players from Latin America I never heard of them. This is where I am ignorant about. I admit. I only know recent players because I saw most of them only play at OG and WC. European players I can see in Euroleague and EC. So we will always praise those we saw play and saw their greatness.
The same is for Spain fans, Greek fans….
I have no intent to be rude or insulting when I say to man that he is ignorant about all international players. I just assume he knows today’s int. players from NBA. And he knows very little about all others who have never played in NBA. And they maybe never have so great teammates that their great skills can be seen. From where I come we say »My grandmother can give great assists to Tim Duncan. But can she do the same to Vaugn?«
When you accomplish something as a leading man it's much more indication of a greatness then a 12th guy on the roster winning 6 rings.
Sabas, petro they were main guys who were leading teams.
And the marketing did a demage or did not. It's how you look at it. You've got many aspects of a game and yopu choose what is more important. If you want to take away the marjeting you are doing so.
To the olympics and the international.
Well in 1992 it was a matter of a athleticism more then anything. The Europe was more about fundamentals and technic then the phisical aspect (esp. the power).
OT.
In 1992 no team was even close to DT No.1. Croatia have 3 or 4 who wouldn't look really bad if they would play with DT no.1. On positions from 6 to 12.
Other teams have 1 or 2 maybe. DT No.1 was as I said a set of best USA players of 2,5 generations.
Yes, I understand this point completely, although it must be said, beno udrih also had a career in europe, quite successfull for his age, and is now showing he can be a rotation player in the NBA. he also shows that he is not a fiery compe or and im sure if drazen was asked to be 3rd sg for a champ team he would have left. so still, drazen > beno. now, compare with say gasol, who led his national team to WC over powerhouse teams, and is the franchise player of a decent nba team- i think it is safe to say gasol = drazen. but drazen was more compe ive and, a better specialist (shooting). Sabonis did not have accomplishments in the NBA, but even in old age, with bad health, was a very good role player for a good blazers team. he also had club and national team success outside the NBA and a historic win over a US collegiate team. sabonis > drazen. manu has had success everywhere he plays, is the spurs closer in a 3 of 5 le run, and was the protagonist of 2 historic upsets, in indiana and athens. also, manu is more well rounded player with better athleticism. manu > drazen. now, drazen > oscar, because oscar never even tried to compete in NBA. I understand this is unfair to drazen because his life and career were tragically cut short. but from what i know, those are the opinions i make, and if accomplishments dont matter, then street ballers are the best players on earth because they do fancy tricks. Drazen's most important achievemnt is not scoring 112 pts in a yugoslavian league game, but breaking the boundary for international players, you could say he is the jackie robinson of international bball.
more than marketing, it is a problem of generations- who and what you see most, and the change in style/quality of play. 20 years ago, european basketball was not as developed as today- less leagues, less players, less quality. but we dont notice it because we see it all the time. like sendman said, it is impossible to objectively say one is better than another because of these differences, but we go with preference and opinion. i'm not very familiar with the current slovenian team but i'll take your word there is no one as good as drazen. but, to make an example, and note i've been very critical of leandro barbosa, leandro barbosa doesnt have half the accomplishments of oscar schmidt, and his ball iq is not as good. but he is 10x the athlete, and has become a good role player for an NBA team. for now, oscar > leandro. but leandro has a chance to be > oscar, even if he doesnt score more points, because he is competing on a higher level.
yes we have a similar saying. thats why i found it rude for you to say : when it was not even close to the best US team of the time (and not because it was poorly chosen team, but because they had rules to limit what players could go).
sorry, i was going to add, that i understand whottt is a master of provocation and that is probably why you were rude. still, you should learn not to take him too seriously
We didn't go in doping and steroids in NBA. While all other teams are doping tested in Olympics, American professionals are not.
What is the big difference between USA team that Sabonis have won and Drazen and Yugo have won?
And now there is are no limit who can play. Look at the rosters of last USA teams.
indianapolis 2002 http://www.usabasketball.com/history/mwc_2002.html
japan 2006 http://www.usabasketball.com/history/mwc_2006.html
greece 2004 http://www.usabasketball.com/seniorm..._schedule.html
You can't go to a tournament saying we will win, we chose our best players who are wiling to compete for our nation...salute after every dunk in preliminary round....then finished 6th, 3rd...and then said "we don't really give a , because Russians are even worse".
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