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  1. #176
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    This is a question I couldn't fathom for a long time myself. I think most Americans have a deep sense of personal responsibility. On one level we balk at anyone being irresponsible enough to allow themselves to get to this position. I think the late-term abortion compromise is a bridge between the two sides for that reason. And, honestly, I don't have a great deal of problem with it.

    There are a number of factors that lead to this place. Some are accidental. Not all women exhibit obvious signs of pregnancy in the early stages and still others have such irregular cycles and issues that it's hard to say. Still others are obviously personal responsibility issues that stem from basic denial to social fear, etc. These are the types of factors that we, hopefully, can address through education and prevention along with a reverse stigmatizing of sex (and the role women play in society) in general.

    However, it should also be noted that one sneaky element of the right-wing anti-abortion agenda has been to underhand in trying to cir vent the attempt to ban abortion and has been content to simply trick women into carrying to term too late to do anything. The most overt tactic is the false abortion clinic. These types of centers, which have been popping up advertise and claim to be abortion clinics. When women go in, they are inundated with one-sided medical advice and literature, all aimed at adoption. If this strong-arm tactic doesn't work, in some extreme cases these "clinics" have pretended to set and cancel and re-schedule procedure dates until such time as the woman is beyond the legal stage to have an abortion. Before some people in this thread start drooling and ranting about this being just a few cases, I will reiterate that this isn't a huge phenomenon. But it does happen, has been happening more and more in the last 8 years, and should be noted.

    The less overt action, of course, is by cutting the funding for low-income clinics that depend on partial funding from the government. Poor clinics can't perform abortions, the cost of abortion goes up and it's harder for low-income persons to get abortions in the early stages since they have to save money for the procedure.

    A final element that should not be overlooked is the individual coming to terms with their own personal beliefs. Most people think of abortion in abstract terms, but they don't really know for sure what they believe for themselves until they sit down and face it themselves. I don't think any of us argue that it's a decission that no one should take lightly and should take their time coming to terms with. Often just a couple weeks isn't enough time for individuals. I know this is another personal responsibility issue, but it is a significant enough one to stand on its own in my opinion.

    I think this issue, however, is really only relevant as a means to target the need for prevention and education. Otherwise you get into the dangerous waters of "you get what you deserve."
    With all this rhetoric there is still no way you can defend Obama's position that survivors of failed abortions don't deserve a shot at life, or even medical attention.

    His thought process is abominable.... since when did the cons utional right to an abortion (through Roe vs. Wade) supercede the cons utional right to 'life'?

    One would think that pro-abortionists would draw the line at birth... not Obama's brand. That is the man that will be our president!

  2. #177
    Believe. MaryAnnKilledGinger's Avatar
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    With all this rhetoric there is still no way you can defend Obama's position that survivors of failed abortions don't deserve a shot at life, or even medical attention.
    Once again for the people in the cheap seats:

    It is currently the law that a doctor must act reasonably to preserve the life of a "born" fetus if there is a reasonable likelihood of survival. The bill that Obama voted "present" on (not against, and not for) was an overreaching publicity stunt which attempted to use the red herring of laws already in existence to further the pro-life cause. The bill was opposed by the Illinois medical community because it attempted to interfere with the patient/doctor relationship and increased liability for medical professionals. You might want to note that this bill the anti-Obama sect bases all this hooey on was so badly worded that even its Republican sponsor admitted it was overreaching and that those who opposed it were not favoring infanticide. (http://therecord.barackobama.com/?p=2671). If you actually want me to venture an opinion on something, I'm afraid I'll need one based on reality and not the make-believe world of the anti-Obama demagogues.

    Reading is free. Comprehension is extra.

  3. #178
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I could offer a biblical explanation... but,
    1) You all really don't care to actually listen... I mean... I would be kidding myself if I thought you all were in this thread for the sake of learning about a scriptural view of GOD.

    2) You all are just going to brush it off with some other wise crack...

    3) Even if I used the Bible to reveal GOD's character to you all... you all would probably just skim over it, reject it, and refuse to even admit it into the discussion... I mean, to you all the bible is a bunch of bunk anyways...

    It's a no-win scenario...
    I'm glad you're giving up on us. I mean, it's all we ask for. You do your thing, we'll do ours. Some Christians don't get it.

    Yeah, I'm not perfect; never claimed to be. At my relatively young age I have lived a life where I tried my best to help others, tended to the needs of underpriviledged families, orphans, donating of my time, and resources. Trying to reflect GOD's love on them... All while trying to to be a productive member of society... knowing fully well that none of those actions will ultimately get me into heaven... only the fact that I've placed my faith in Christ as LORD of my life...
    Well, it's not like I eat babies for breakfast. I try to help too whenever I can, even though I have no concept of god. I just think it's rewarding both for me and the other person.

    So what if I'm wrong... eh....??? Nothing will happen. I'll just return to the earth as 'worm food,' but will have still made an impact on others.

    What if you all are wrong?
    I guess the bummer if you are wrong is all the stuff you could have done but you didn't because you considered them a sin. There's also the substantial time spent trying to make sense of the scriptures, the Bible, time wasted going to church and going places to spread the word. The good deeds are good no matter what, so those are good either way.

    If we are wrong, then we go to . BFD. I really have no expectations past this life, and so I try to live it to the fullest. After getting married I settled down quite a bit, but it's been a fun ride. Heck, still is. And it's 2x as good when I don't have to be thinking if I'm pissing off the guy upstairs. In all honesty, I don't really believe there's an afterlife, so I simply don't dwell on it. But if there happens to be, and I'm headed down on the Lucifer express, then so be it. Life has been wonderful to me. I always think I'm one of the luckiest guys alive, so when it's my time to go, I'll kick the bucket with a smile.

  4. #179
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Once again for the people in the cheap seats:

    It is currently the law that a doctor must act reasonably to preserve the life of a "born" fetus if there is a reasonable likelihood of survival. The bill that Obama voted "present" on (not against, and not for) was an overreaching publicity stunt which attempted to use the red herring of laws already in existence to further the pro-life cause. The bill was opposed by the Illinois medical community because it attempted to interfere with the patient/doctor relationship and increased liability for medical professionals. You might want to note that this bill the anti-Obama sect bases all this hooey on was so badly worded that even its Republican sponsor admitted it was overreaching and that those who opposed it were not favoring infanticide. (http://therecord.barackobama.com/?p=2671). If you actually want me to venture an opinion on something, I'm afraid I'll need one based on reality and not the make-believe world of the anti-Obama demagogues.

    Reading is free. Comprehension is extra.
    Other than this website I don't generally visit any political websites... I did however, come across a DVD where I heard Obama's discourse on the Illinois senate floor arguing against this proposed bill... ah... but don't let a website led "the record" get in the way of actually understanding Obama's position on late term abortions... Yeah... obviously, His people want to rationalize his statements for the sake of his election... Who's sitting at cheap seats???

    Obama argued against the bill, not on technicalities, or due to semantics...

    Once again, Obama said,

    "Helping them [survive] would go against the intial decision to have them aborted..."

    "It would burden doctors to require them to come out at 2:00 AM just to try and save the life of an unwanted baby..."


    He was not arguing against the wording or the provisions of the proposed bill... Obama overstepped the bounds of the necessary arguments with the above freudian slips - truly showing his position.

    If you can't understand what he is saying then that's on you... don't even try and lecture me on reading comprehension.
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 10-27-2008 at 11:14 PM.

  5. #180
    adolis is altuve’s father monosylab1k's Avatar
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    Would this be the same Jesus that prayed in front of the 5,000 that God would multiply the loaves and the fish?
    Yes. And the same Jesus who kept his worship out of the political realm. The same Jesus who fled and hid when the people tried to make him king.

  6. #181
    Believe. MaryAnnKilledGinger's Avatar
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    Once again, Obama said,

    "Helping them [survive] would go against the intial decision to have them aborted..."

    "It would burden doctors to require them to come out at 2:00 AM just to try and save the life of an unwanted baby..."
    And your DVD source for this is...?

  7. #182
    All Hail the Legatron The Reckoning's Avatar
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    Jesus was a tolstoy anarchist

  8. #183
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Yes. And the same Jesus who kept his worship out of the political realm. The same Jesus who fled and hid when the people tried to make him king.
    He didn't come to be crowned or to overthrow the Romans (which is why the people wanted to crown him as King in the first place)... He came to defeat sin by overcoming all temptation and by triumphing over death. Furthermore Christ came to establish his spritual kingdom...

  9. #184
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    And your DVD source for this is...?
    The Illinois public broadcasting chanel... a friend of mine from Chicago, TiVo'd it the day it aired (oddly enough he said it was never rebroadcast)... Anyways, he sent it to me..... whottt posted a segment of that audio clip [not his entire discourse] a couple of days ago...

  10. #185
    Believe. MaryAnnKilledGinger's Avatar
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    The Illinois public broadcasting chanel... a friend of mine from Chicago, TiVo'd it the day it aired (oddly enough he said it was never rebroadcast)... Anyways, he sent it to me..... whottt posted a segment of that audio clip [not his entire discourse] a couple of days ago...
    Wow, I can't believe your friend has that video and hasn't shared it with all the pro-lifers out there who would love to have it to play on their webistes. Surely, he's shared copies with them so they can use it to get the facts out there. There has to be a couple reputable pro-life advocacy groups that would welcome such material. Or does the pro-life movement also have a liberal bias?

    ...or could it be that your friend doesn't want anyone to try and authenticate its validity when there is established do entation that such proceedings were never recorded? Or, heaven forbid, those truncated statements are taken wildly out of context from someone that actually did unofficially record the event?

    It's propaganda like this that confuses well-intentioned, but misinformed people like angel_luv.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...mes-campaign-/

    Back in 2001, legislative transcripts show that Obama questioned one piece of the "born alive" legislation package because he said it would be struck down by the courts because it gave legal status to fetuses. In 2002, Obama discussed a different aspect of the legislation, which required a second doctor be present at abortions. Obama said he thought that legislation was intended to make abortion more difficult to obtain, not to provide better care for the "born alive." There is no record of his remarks in 2003 because the bill never made it out of committee, and the committee proceedings were not recorded.

    We requested do entation from the Illinois State Archives about the 2003 bill and found that it did have a neutrality clause, as the National Right to Life said. (The clause was added at the committee level, and those records are not available online. But we have posted the do ents we received via fax from the State Archives here). But there is an important caveat to add here: We don't know what the discussion was at the 2003 committee because the proceedings weren't recorded, but it seems likely that the federal neutrality clause was not considered sufficient at the state level, because the 2005 Illinois law that eventually passed included a more extensive neutrality clause than the federal legislation. To read more about the differences between the neutrality clauses, please see our statement here.

    Obama's own position: http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/429328.aspx
    Last edited by MaryAnnKilledGinger; 10-28-2008 at 12:59 AM.

  11. #186
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Hear for yourself.... the clip whottt posted...


  12. #187
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Anyways... I'll talk to you later... I have to catch some zzzzzzs.

    Just expressing my view that mother's lives and children's lives should be valued equally... that abortion not be used as some last recourse contraceptive... that's all.


  13. #188
    Believe. MaryAnnKilledGinger's Avatar
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    Hear for yourself.... the clip whottt posted...
    1. This video has two clips taken out of context. It is impossible to know what they were referring to and in what context.

    2. Even allowing for #1, neither of the two quotes you posted are in that video. What your own video clip actually says is:

    "Adding an additional doctor who has to be called in an emergency situation to come in and make these assessments is really designed simply to burden the original decision of the woman and the physician to induce labor and perform an abortion."

    This is absolutely true and in no way implies that care should not be given to a live birth fetus. It does imply that requiring an unnecessary third party just for the sake of looking over a doctor's shoulder is a disingenuous attempt at hiking up the price of an abortion.

    Just expressing my view that mother's lives and children's lives should be valued equally... that abortion not be used as some last recourse contraceptive... that's all.
    That's not at all what you've been expressing and has nothing to do with the misleading information you've presented.

    Pleasant dreams.
    Last edited by MaryAnnKilledGinger; 10-28-2008 at 12:32 AM.

  14. #189
    Believe.
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    So what if I'm wrong... eh....??? Nothing will happen. I'll just return to the earth as 'worm food,' but will have still made an impact on others.

    What if you all are wrong?
    Two issues I have with this.

    1. As a decidedly non-religious person, it irks me when someone tries to say that religion=morals, as if the only way to be a good and moral person is through religious belief. I have never been a member of a church, and I view science as much more meaningful than religious expression. And yet I am a moral and decent person. I get along well with people, I help out when and where I can, I've donated my time to what I believe are good causes and I try my best to take care of my friends and my family. Not because someone up in the sky might be upset if I don't, but because I believe it's just the best way to navigate life. I don't believe there's a reward or a punishment waiting me at the end of the line, this is just the way I can make the experience as positive as possible.

    2. I don't begrudge people their beliefs. I don't know that I'm right, and I have no place to try to convince you otherwise. I respect your right to your beliefs as long as you respect mine. But this argument quoted above is essentially the same thought process I had about Santa Clause what I was four (If he's real, I get presents. If he's not, what's the harm in believing?) I know that your faith runs deeper than that, and I'm not mocking you. I'm just saying don't insult yourself by reducing your faith into something so simplistic, and don't insult us by trying to win us over with the same argument.

    ps MAKG ftw. I wish I could so eloquently state my position on so many things.

  15. #190
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    You can add me to your heartless and soulless list...
    I already stated I don't personally like abortion except on the cases of incest, rape or danger to the mother. But in those cases, I don't give a how many nice pictures you post, if the mother decides to axe the fetus, I'm 100% behind her decision.
    Your view doesn't qualify you for the list, if we adhered to abortion based on you qualifiers, the 1,400,000 abortions that take place in the U.S. every year would be cut by an astounding 1,386,000 a year (research shows that roughly 1% of abortions are performed for rape, incest of to protect the life of the mother), for a grand total of 14,000 abortions a year.

    Any pro-life advocates that wouldn't jump at that reduction would have to be out of their mind.

    The soulless, heartless list is reserved for those who perform abortions, and all others that have an in depth understanding of the development of a child in the womb, and in spite of that knowledge still pursue an agenda that advocates abortion-on-demand under every cir stance.

  16. #191
    Veteran ratm1221's Avatar
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    Your view doesn't qualify you for the list, if we adhered to abortion based on you qualifiers, the 1,400,000 abortions that take place in the U.S. every year would be cut by an astounding 1,386,000 a year (research shows that roughly 1% of abortions are performed for rape, incest of to protect the life of the mother), for a grand total of 14,000 abortions a year.

    Any pro-life advocates that wouldn't jump at that reduction would have to be out of their mind.

    The soulless, heartless list is reserved for those who perform abortions, and all others that have an in depth understanding of the development of a child in the womb, and in spite of that knowledge still pursue an agenda that advocates abortion-on-demand under every cir stance.
    So you wouldn't mind paying more taxes to support those 1.4 million babies would you? Let's say the cost of raising a child for the first year of it's life costs $10,000, which should be somewhat accurate or not too far off. That would be (1.4 million * 10,000) = 14 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. And it goes up from there since I'm only using the first year of a child's life, unless it starves and dies before that first year because some people on here hate taxes, but they are pro-life.

  17. #192
    The Crominator J.T.'s Avatar
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    I firmly believe that nothing good happens without Jesus.
    Just out of curiosity answer this simple true/false question:

    T/F Jesus Christ's birthday is December 25th.

  18. #193
    Veteran ratm1221's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity answer this simple true/false question:

    T/F Jesus Christ's birthday is December 25th.
    That's an easy one to dodge, but even if you gave her a hard one it wouldn't matter. Truth and faith don't go together no matter how hard you try to make them fit.

  19. #194
    It is what it is. I Love Me Some Me's Avatar
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    The issue of abortion can be discussed in circles forever, but it only comes down to one thing.

    Is the unborn baby a human being?

    If it is a human being then you cannot, in good conscience, justify terminating it's life, simply because it is in the way.

    If it is not a human being, then you can do whatever you want with it with no moral or ethical ramifications.

  20. #195
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    The issue of abortion can be discussed in circles forever, but it only comes down to one thing.

    Is the unborn baby a human being?

    If it is a human being then you cannot, in good conscience, justify terminating it's life, simply because it is in the way.

    If it is not a human being, then you can do whatever you want with it with no moral or ethical ramifications.
    To me it has little to do with that at all. For me, personally, it has to do with being responsible for what you do. If you father a child, then you need to have the balls to respond for your actions. Of course, this is from a man's POV. Women actually have more weight IMO, because they are the ones that will carry the pregnancy, and it's associated effects and risks.

  21. #196
    It is what it is. I Love Me Some Me's Avatar
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    To me it has little to do with that at all. For me, personally, it has to do with being responsible for what you do. If you father a child, then you need to have the balls to respond for your actions. Of course, this is from a man's POV. Women actually have more weight IMO, because they are the ones that will carry the pregnancy, and it's associated effects and risks.
    Really?

    So when it comes to abortion, it doesn't matter much whether or not we're talking about a human being?

    I mean, I agree 100% about father being responsible (mother's too, for that matter), but the abortion argument really is "are we or are we not, killing a human being?"

  22. #197
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    I could offer a biblical explanation... but:

    1) You all really don't care to actually listen... I mean... I would be kidding myself if I thought you all were in a thread led "Issues of Faith" for the sake of learning about a scriptural view of GOD.

    2) You all are just going to brush it off with some other wise crack...

    3) Even if I used the Bible to reveal GOD's character to you all... you all would probably just skim over it, reject it, and refuse to even admit it into the discussion... I mean, to you all the bible is a bunch of bunk anyways...

    It's a no-win scenario...

    Yeah, I'm not perfect; never claimed to be. At my relatively young age I have lived a life where I tried my best to help others, tended to the needs of underpriviledged families, orphans, donating of my time, and resources. Trying to reflect GOD's love on them... All while trying to to be a productive member of society... knowing fully well that none of those actions will ultimately get me into heaven... only the fact that I've decided to place my faith in Christ as LORD of my life...

    So what if I'm wrong... eh....??? Nothing will happen. I'll just return to the earth as 'worm food,' but will have still made an impact on others.

    What if you all are wrong?
    Oh cmon, that's a copout. I have not said anything critical of you that I know of.

    I've helped out others as well, but without the carrot of Heaven floating over me.

    And Pascal's argument is a weak one.

  23. #198
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Really?

    So when it comes to abortion, it doesn't matter much whether or not we're talking about a human being?

    I mean, I agree 100% about father being responsible (mother's too, for that matter), but the abortion argument really is "are we or are we not, killing a human being?"
    That's your opinion, respectable as any other. But my position preempts getting to that question. You either take responsibility and pass the moral test, or you don't and you fail it. Obviously, I stated exceptions to that.

  24. #199
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    Jesus would share the wealth

  25. #200
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Jesus would share the wealth
    Free wine es!

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