Hakeem vs Duncan Part 2

[Lars]

And you need to up your comprehension. So let me state it in words of one syllable for you:

When you adjust for pace and minutes, except for defensive numbers, Duncan has produced better than Hakeem in every category. Hakeem's numbers apart from his 4 best seasons are indeed lower, and if you add to the fact that his teams were playoff doormats for those years, his overall contribution is indeed mediocre.

And you need to up your comprehension. So let me state it in words of one syllable for you:

When you play against weak compe ion your numbers will be inflated. Your stats are meaningless.

[Thomas82]

he had all stars Ralph Sampson, Clyde Drexler and Charles Barkley over the course of his career, moron.

How old are you? I bet you are too young to remember rocket games from the 90s.

lol, rocketfans.

Don't forget, he had Scottie Pippen too.

[Lars]

Son? Go yourself. No way Olajuwon would put up the same numbers in this much slower league with better D than was seen in the 90s.

Listen sport, I can understand why you are getting so worked up. I thought it was fun to argue with you because I thought you had actually watched both eras, till I saw the better D comment. Get some NBA classic, I think you will really enjoy what real basketball looked like.

[Killakobe81]

Don't forget, he had Scottie Pippen too.

Ok Spurs fans that argue this crap look at the 1st le team the ROX had ...
this was even weaker than the '99 Spurs team ...you guys had Sjax, elliott, Robinson, kerr and avery
Now look at what the Rox had for Hakeem's 1st ring Thorpe, Horry Kenny smith and Mario elie with a rookie Cassell ...

Im sorry but Id much rather have that spurs cast ...

the recent winners have Tony (better than kenny or Cassell though Casell was clutch) Manu though not the HOF'er Clyde was ...way more clutch and won more in international and pro careers ...Horry was better in houston but more clutch proven in his SA years plus he saved your 3rd le series ...no way you beat Detroit without him ...

[Killakobe81]

That 1st le team Hakeem carried on his back ...had no business wining a le ...
no other HOF caliber players thorpe and Cassel were fringe all-stars a couple appearances but neither were 1st team ALL nba type players ....

[Warlord23]

And you need to up your comprehension. So let me state it in words of one syllable for you:

When you play against weak compe ion your numbers will be inflated. Your stats are meaningless.

I see, so let's see the kind of compe ion that Hakeem played against in his first 6 years in the league, shall we?

In this era (late 80s), Shaq and Mourning hadn't entered the league yet. Robinson had just entered the league. Ewing, Parrish and Sampson were the other established centers, and Sampson played on the Rockets.

Apart from this, this is the list of big men Hakeem had to go up against: Bill Laimbeer, Bill Cartwright, Kevin Duckworth, Jack Sikma, Roy Tarpley, Mark Eaton, Brad Daugherty, Benoit Benjamin, Larry Nance, Olden Polynice, Brad Sellers, Kevin Willis, Tree Rollins, Dave Corzine, Manute Bol, Mike Gminski, Roy Hinson, Tim McCormick, Steve Stipanovich, Danny Schayes, Joe Kleine, Tellis Frank.

So basically Hakeem in the late 80s went up against 3 great centers and several good-to-decent ones.

Compare this to what Duncan has had to play at the PF spot in his time: Garnett, Webber, Rasheed, Dirk, Amare, Gasol, McDyess, Jermaine, Bosh, Brand, Boozer, Marion.

Double-digit number of All-star/All-NBA caliber PFs.

Hakeem did beat Shaq, Ewing and Olajuwon handily in the mid-90s playoffs. But in the 80s he as going up against an average crop of big men in a swingman-dominated league and putting up modest numbers.

4 great seasons do not make a career.

[Tmac&Luther]

This is a joke....

all you have to do is watch the two guys play, I watched Hakeem play and I've watched Duncan play......and I know who the better player is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpKD0SFErg4&fmt=18

Hakeem did things on the court in his 30's that Duncan could never do in his absolute prime (and that's not a knock against Duncan, not many players could. Hakeem is probably the best modern era two way/complete player to ever play the game)......but, but, but, Duncan has team success

Hakeem played in possibly the best "big men era" and had his way with everyone....yes even the great David Robinson, Duncan played against Shaq (who Hakeem already beat) and ??? There isn't a doubt in my mind that is you put Duncan against Hakeem, Hakeem would've taught him a few lessons as well.

What this damn thread boils down to is "who would you rather have, Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith" Same damn argument. Sanders was a better talent/player, but Emmitt had better talent around him....and just like Dallas Cowboy fans, Spurs fans can't get that through their damn heads or fathom it.

[baseline bum]

Listen sport, I can understand why you are getting so worked up. I thought it was fun to argue with you because I thought you had actually watched both eras, till I saw the better D comment. Get some NBA classic, I think you will really enjoy what real basketball looked like.

I was a season-ticket holder in that era. I know exactly what I'm talking about. It's so lame when people canonize the past and complain about how ty the present is just because their team has gone to .

[Warlord23]

Nobody's arguing that Hakeem did things on the court that Duncan cannot do. Problem is, he did it for a grand total of 4 seasons.

[SpuronyourFace]

Duncan.

He's had the Spurs in contention his entire career with different teammates, and as a previous poster mentioned no one has quite elevated his teammates play like Duncan has.

People want to throw in the Hakeem had the better stats argument, but Duncan has been so unselfish with his stats, and that is the main reason he has lead his team to 4 rings. He has also been robbed of the DPOY at least twice in his career that I can recall.

Duncan. Its an easy choice.

But, hey Hakeem was an amazing player as well. No disrespect at all. One of my all time favorite players to watch play the game.

[Warlord23]

Listen sport, I can understand why you are getting so worked up. I thought it was fun to argue with you because I thought you had actually watched both eras, till I saw the better D comment. Get some NBA classic, I think you will really enjoy what real basketball looked like.

See, this is the problem with new-age Rocket fan. Having watched a few highlight reels on NBA classic, he sets out to debate an era when he was a twinkle in his daddy's eye.

No offense, but you need to stick to things you've seen, like T-Mac's lazy eye and Alston's streetball.

[Killakobe81]

This is a joke....

all you have to do is watch the two guys play, I watched Hakeem play and I've watched Duncan play......and I know who the better player is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpKD0SFErg4&fmt=18

Hakeem did things on the court in his 30's that Duncan could never do in his absolute prime (and that's not a knock against Duncan, not many players could. Hakeem is probably the best modern era two way/complete player to ever play the game)......but, but, but, Duncan has team success

What this damn thread boils down to is "who would you rather have, Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith" Same damn argument. Sanders was a better talent/player, but Emmitt had better talent around him....and just like Dallas Cowboy fans, Spurs fans can't get that through their damn heads or fathom it.

Not valid because Barry never won a better argument would be Elway or Farve vs. Montana ...

Farve at his best put up better numbers but Montana was conistent and won more ...same advantage over elway BUT at his best Elway was better (to me)

[Tmac&Luther]

Nobody's arguing that Hakeem did things on the court that Duncan cannot do. Problem is, he did it for a grand total of 4 seasons.

Problem is you're wrong, don't know where you're pulling this 4 grand total crap from.

Go ahead and post those 4 season stats......Guarantee I can pull some stats from other seasons that match up with what Duncan has done.

again comes down to Barry vs. Emmitt.

[Warlord23]

If Jordan had gone off to play baseball in 97 & 98 instead of 94 & 95, this thread would have Jazz fans instead of Rocket fans, and we'd be debating about how Malone did things on the court that nobody else had.

[Tmac&Luther]

Not valid because Barry never won a better argument would be Elway or Farve vs. Montana ...

Farve at his best put up better numbers but Montana was conistent and won more ...same advantage over elway BUT at his best Elway was better (to me)

Oh it's very valid, team sport.

[Tmac&Luther]

If Jordan had gone off to play baseball in 97 & 98 instead of 94 & 95, this thread would have Jazz fans instead of Rocket fans, and we'd be debating about how Malone did things on the court that nobody else had.

Hey dumbass how about you go pull up Houston's record against those Bull's teams. If Jordan hadn't retired this thread might not even be here.

and how the are "Utah fans" supposed to be here with they didn't even get past us. Not to metion that Jordan played in '95

[Warlord23]

Problem is you're wrong, don't know where you're pulling this 4 grand total crap from.

Go ahead and post those 4 season stats......Guarantee I can pull some stats from other seasons that match up with what Duncan has done.

again comes down to Barry vs. Emmitt.

Go back in this thread, I've posted the numbers again and again.

Or, go pull up statistics adjusted for pace and minutes, and see it for yourself. Hakeem in the 80s was struggling to get his team into the playoffs and putting up lesser stats than Duncan.

[Lars]

Compare this to what Duncan has had to play at the PF spot in his time: Garnett, Webber, Rasheed, Dirk, Amare, Gasol, McDyess, Jermaine, Bosh, Brand, Boozer, Marion.

This is seriously your arguement as Duncan's defense stoppers? Are you trying to prove my point?

Half of those guys play no defense whatsoever.

[Thomas82]

Has there ever been another player that didnt have another allstar playing with him that won a le?

Tim Duncan in 2003.

[Tmac&Luther]

Go back in this thread, I've posted the numbers again and again.

Or, go pull up statistics adjusted for pace and minutes, and see it for yourself. Hakeem in the 80s was struggling to get his team into the playoffs and putting up lesser stats than Duncan.

Wow, the great "team stats" again.

again, Sanders vs. Emmitt. Let me guess, you're a Cowboys fan also, this isn't your first rodeo is it pal?

[Killakobe81]

Oh it's very valid, team sport.

My point is you cant be in the "BEST" argument if you NEVER have won ...
Sorry you just can't ...

In the 2 sports I watched the most (NFL & NBA and even hockey) team wise the BEST Clutch players alwys win at least once and if they don;t they at least make Finals ...

Marino, barkley, stockton and Regiie Miller were clutch GREAT players who never won les ...

Guys like Barry(bonds/sanders) Nique, Gervin, Jim kelly great regular season guys but in the clutch were all found wanting at times ...

The best Montana, Magic, bird, Jordan, Young Aikman Rege white Ray Lewis Isiah hakeem duncan Shaq Kobe, gretzky, Lemiuex, Roy they win and lack of talent isnt an excuse great players elevate their team nd carry them at least to a Cahmpionship gaame even if they lose there (marino, Kobe last year, Malone, Stockton, barkley)

[Thomas82]

I'm saying they developed into the players they are today because they had Tim Duncan with them early on, helping build their confidence, picking up their slack, and making things a lot easier for them by drawing so much defensive attention. A lot of players have incredible talent, but aren't developed well due to poor teammates/poor coaching, and dont reach their potential. Tim Duncan is the ultimate guy you want to have on your team to help develop young talent.

I honestly don't feel that they would have turned into the players they became today, without Tim Duncan helping them early in their careers, showing them what its like to win les right out the gate.

Good post!!

[Warlord23]

This is seriously your arguement as Duncan's defense stoppers? Are you trying to prove my point?

Half of those guys play no defense whatsoever.

That was my counter to your fallacious argument that Hakeem saw better compe ion than Duncan. The PF spot has been the strongest in history in this era, certainly stronger than the C spot in the late 80s.

As to defense, Duncan (as with Hakeem) regularly saw double teams. The NBA is not a 1-on-1 game.

[Warlord23]

I noticed how you conviently left out the two best centers of the 80's, Kareem and Moses Malone. Nice going. Now let's compare. If you just take Kareem, Moses, Robinson, Ewing, and Daugherty, those guys dwarf the talent you put on the board for Duncan.

And your argument defeats itself. Every last one of the guys you listed that Duncan has played against have allstar numbers against Duncan. Try matching those clowns up against Hakeem and they might have short careers. You can add Dwight Howard in there as well.

Good catch about Kareem. Although Moses was clearly over the hill in this era. But still the point remains that the cream of the crop was not more than 6-7 guys, compared to double that in Duncan's era.

As to your second point, they weren't playing 1-on-1 out there. Team D is the name of the game, but none of them saw as many double-teams as Duncan, none of them came up big in the playoffs like Duncan did, and none of them got anointed the best PF in the game within 6 years of entering the league.

[Tmac&Luther]

That was my counter to your fallacious argument that Hakeem saw better compe ion than Duncan. The PF spot has been the strongest in history in this era, certainly stronger than the C spot in the late 80s.

As to defense, Duncan (as with Hakeem) regularly saw double teams. The NBA is not a 1-on-1 game.

Wait, wait, wait......let me get this straight. So for years now Rockets fans have heard how Duncan is the "best big man" in the league and how he really plays center (which he does), but now when it fits your argument he's a PF and only plays against PFs.....guess the next time I see Duncan on Yao, I must be on acid.

We're talking about "Big men" Hakeem is very comparable to Duncan size wise and like Hakeem, Duncan usually gaurds other team's centers/big men.

Oh BTW, the PF position/big man position doesn't come close to the depth that it was in the late 80's/early 90's.......try again.