Societies Worse Off 'When They Have God On Their Side'

[scott]

^^^That implies the same thing scott,

No, jochhe, it doesn't. One (mine) implies correlation and the other implies causality (the one your website implies as "folly").

I now see the problem here. I have made the mistake of taking for granted that jochhe understands the difference between correlation and causality.

Here is a rather simple explanation of the difference:

http://w-uh.com/posts/030302a_correlation_vs_ca.html

jochhe, you seem to want to insist that I have implied causlity, when in fact I haven't, and in fact I've gone out of my way to say that there is no evidence for causality between Christianity and Crime - my study points out a correlation.

I apologize for making the error of assuming that jochhe had a grasp of this concept.

I can't speak for others regarding scott's research but I took exception to the the absurdity of his statement that Christians are 200 times more likely to be incarcerated than non Christians. At face value it's an overt attempt to nullify the positive change that takes place in the heart, mind and lifestyle of those that have genuinely become followers of Christ, and scott being an avowed atheist just adds to the skepticism of his conclusions.

It's only absurd to you because you refuse to believe that such a correlation could be possible, when in fact my peer-reviewed statistics show it to be the case. You may want to discount things you don't like as attempts to discredit something, but you are the only in "folly" - falling victim to the fallacy that percieved bias automatically discredits scientific findings.

And now for a grand prediction: this will once again fall on deaf ears, or more appropriately, blind eyes.

[scott]

Well, the assertion as I understand it was that a 'religious society' is worse than a non-religious one. What might make sense would be to look at it on a state or MSA level. Perhaps a bit stereotypical, but Texas v. California, Virginia v. Massachusetts, Houston v. Boston, etc...

I thought you were refering to my study, rather than the one in the original thread. Sorry.

In the case of comparing religious societies to non-religious ones... it seems like an uphill battle in trying to find seperate societies that are comparable in most ways aside from their religiousity. I don't think you could do it within a given country, because the range of religiousity in comparable cities tends to be rather narrow. I city like, Dallas, for example may rank high on the religiousity scale, but it really isn't significantly more religious than, say, Seattle.

You really would have to compare discrete metro areas in areas with widely different religiousity profiles, which most likely means different countries - probably seperated by a significant geographic boundary. In the process of controlling for all the socioeconomic variables, I suspect the data will be mangled beyond the point of comprehension. University of Chicago Economist James Heckman won a Nobel prize for his work in developing a method for analyzing selective samples, so maybe some of his techniques could be applied to get some meaningful answers.

[MannyIsGod]

Correct Manny, it would be incorrect to label Christians as good or bad however they can be categorized as strong and weak Christians supported by "let them that are strong bear the infirmities of the weak".

No, they can't. If the measure of a Christian is simlpy their acceptance as Christ as their savior then that is something you have no way of measuring. You want to use the facets of your religion that are convient to you when they are convient and disregard them at all times. If salvation is deterimed by acceptance and if salvation is the only matter of importance then acceptance is the only measure of importance when it comes to Christianity!

It amazs me how someone who feels so strongly about their religion has such a weak grasp on it's fundemental tenet.

[ChumpDumper]

Does that mean God favors a progressive income tax?

[jochhejaam]

Quote=jochhejaam: Correct Manny, it would be incorrect to label Christians as good or bad however they can be categorized as strong and weak Christians supported by "let them that are strong bear the infirmities of the weak".

sidenote- the thumbs up was for yoni's post
[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]No, they can't.

Manny, you're usually on shaky ground when it comes to discussions about Christianity and your comments here indicates that you fall far short of even attaining shaky ground status.

It's a no brainer manny, of course they can be strong and weak.
Are you of the opinion that each convert to Christianity immediately becomes a moral clone of Christ? The thrust of genuine conversion is that it wipes away the sin in a persons life and reserves a place for them with God in heaven, closely following the perfect example Christ set is a life long challenge, one that is constantly sought after but never fully achieved. To paraphrase the words of Apostle Paul, 'it is a life long race, run it well'.

Let me use a worldly illustration for you because it's obvious by your post that you have great difficulty grasping the nature of Christians and that you have serious deficiencies when it comes to understanding the fundamentals of Christianity.

1. We have a college professor who has mastered the subject he is teaching.

2. We have a student who is in his first day of class and has little knowledge of the subject.

That equates to one being quite strong in the area of study and one being quite weak in the area of study.

And in addition to that parallel, after taking a class in a particular study we have students that come out strong in the knowledge that was presented and those that come out weak.


The strong are those whose Christian walk very closely resembles the way Christ lived his life which was a life without sin. That strength comes through a relentless study of God's scriptures, through daily prayer and communion with God, because of a genuine love and admiration for Christ and with a sincere desire to help mankind in the ways that Christ did. First and foremost that would be following the exhortation of Apostle Paul who said, 'I become all things to all men, that by all means some might be saved'.

The weak are those who struggle in their walk with Christ. Becoming a Christian wipes away the past sins of our lives but does not promise total control over the temptation or inclination to sin in the future. It liberates us from the penalty of sin (death) but does not fully insulate us from the tempations of sin. There will always be the struggle within us because we have taken on the nature of Christ but we still have to deal with our carnal flesh.

Becoming a Christian happens in an instant, in the "twinkling of an eye" if you will. Becoming a strong and wise Christian come with time and entails some very hard lessons. Being purified by the fire of adversity and gaining inner strength and resolve by having Christ helping us through the crises of our life which serves to strengthen us. Each tempation or trial that is overcome leads us to the point where (from the writings of Flavius Josephus referring to Joseph's time in prison for a crime he didn't commit) our soul becomes as iron! No longer are we easily sidetracked by the tempations of this world, no longer are we beaten down by those diversions that would distract and limit the effectiveness of the commission given to us by Christ!
The tempations that at one time caused us to stumble are no longer stumbling blocks, we are to the point where we are no longer fazed by them. Our focus becomes sharp and our will to follow Christ is unfettered,uncomprimised, and undeterred

If the measure of a Christian is simlpy their acceptance as Christ as their savior then that is something you have no way of measuring

.

The acceptance of Christ as Saviour is not the measure of a Christian, the acceptance of Christ is the action a person takes that emancipates them from the penalty of sin.

You want to use the facets of your religion that are convient to you when they are convient and disregard them at all times.

??? That read like a riddle Manny, I'm unable to decipher the point you are trying to make here, would you like to attempt to clarify it?

If salvation is deterimed by acceptance and if salvation is the only matter of importance then acceptance is the only measure of importance when it comes to Christianity!

Where oh where did you receive information about Christianity that would lead you to believe that salvation is the only matter of importance in Christianity? That is the most important personal matter and is essential to the what Christ wants us to do after conversion, but it's not anywhere near an end in and of itself! Once we are converted/ transformed we are then told to "Go and preach the Gospel to all nations. Personal salvation is only the starting point Manny.


And a sincere wish from me to you to have a good day Manny.