Societies Worse Off 'When They Have God On Their Side'

[Nbadan]

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence ac ulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

Times Online

The author of this study, Greg Paul is a s bag, so it is unfortunate that such a fascinating study could come from such a tact-less person. Paul is a highly accomplished paleo-artist, and an ameteur paleontologist that actually writes real works in paleontology. He's a smart guy, but also a social nightmare.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

hmm... I don't get it... how can being religious translate into more cases of gonorrhea, teenage pregnancies, syphilis and abortion?? I'm thinking the guy that did that study conveniently disregard other very important factors that make up each society. I'm curious as to how that guy made the connection "more devout = more ed up" lol.

[jochhejaam]

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.
According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.
The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It seems as if a high percentage of people in any society claim a belief in some sort of God. Given that la ude as basis for a generic study I suppose you could make an arguement for any conclusion you end up with.

The terrorists are quite religious so in that context I wouldn't argue his assertations.

His conclusions are way off base for those that don't venture far from God's commandments.

He's a paleontologist which means there's a good possibility that he's athiest or agnostic so it's not surprising that he would venture into the anti-religion arena and come to conclusions that would attempt to undermine it's virtues.

Here's my own generic assessment based on the people I have met in my lifetime.
Those that are truly Christlike are not prone to criminal behaviour
Those that are unChristlike are prone to criminal behaviour.
(This study is unscientific (yet true) and is to be used for the sole purpose of spurstalk.com discussion).

[travis2]

To be fair, the report does state that it makes no cause/effect claim, but merely presents the issue in the hopes it will be studied further.

The report also makes mention of the fact that one can believe in a Creator AND believe in evolution...but it gets short shrift.

There are multiple ways to interpret the graphs in the reports as well.

[Jelly]

there are lots of things wrong with that article, but I'll just make one point. I believe Russia has the highest murder rate and they are hardly a religious country. Britian's crime rate is also fairly high and has been climbing, whereas our's has been declining for the past four decades. Britain is also having a huge problem with its youth culture right now (google yob). It is also misleading - and maybe disingenuous- for him to use Scandinavian countries and Japan as examples of how societies ought to be. These countries are almost entirely genous. genous nations do not have the same societal stressors that multi-cultural nations like the U.S. have. Personally, I'd rather live in a melting pot than in Japan or Finland.

I guess that's more than one point.

[SpursWoman]

[Spurminator]

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

[boutons]

Taking the longer perspective, Europe and West exploded in science and technology and social progress (eg, French and American Revolutions, the Industrial Revolution), aka The Enlightenment, after 1000 years of a corrupted Catholic Church dominating European life in power tandem with pre-democratic rulers(royalty). That period was known as The Dark Ages.

The FF were aware of this European church-state amalgam and made it absolutely clear in the Cons ution that church and state were to be separated.

The Repubs, s of the religious fundamentalists, are amalgamating church and state again. The creationism/ID bull is taking the US back to its own Dark Ages.

Note that the Repubs are exploiting/corrupting the hurricane disasters by paying back, and continuing to purchase, the religious nuts' loyalty.

Such re-imbursement is a first, and it's ALL MONEY POLITICS:

===================

washingtonpost.com

FEMA Plans to Reimburse Faith Groups for Aid
As Civil Libertarians Object, Religious Organizations Weigh Whether to Apply

By Alan Cooperman and Elizabeth Williamson

Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, September 27, 2005

After weeks of prodding by Republican lawmakers and the American Red Cross, the Federal Emergency Management Agency said yesterday that it will use taxpayer money to reimburse churches and other religious organizations that have opened their doors to provide shelter, food and supplies to survivors of hurricanes Katrina and Rita.

FEMA officials said it would mark the first time that the government has made large-scale payments to religious groups for helping to cope with a domestic natural disaster.

"I believe it's appropriate for the federal government to assist the faith community because of the scale and scope of the effort and how long it's lasting," said Joe Becker, senior vice president for preparedness and response with the Red Cross.

Civil liberties groups called the decision a violation of the traditional boundary between church and state, accusing FEMA of trying to restore its battered reputation by playing to religious conservatives.

"What really frosts me about all this is, here is an administration that didn't do its job and now is trying to dig itself out by making right-wing groups happy," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

FEMA officials said religious organizations would be eligible for payments only if they operated emergency shelters, food distribution centers or medical facilities at the request of state or local governments in the three states that have declared emergencies -- Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. In those cases, "a wide range of costs would be available for reimbursement, including labor costs incurred in excess of normal operations, rent for the facility and delivery of essential needs like food and water," FEMA spokesman Eugene Kinerney said in an e-mail.

For churches, synagogues and mosques that have taken in hurricane survivors, FEMA's decision presents a quandary. Some said they were eager to get the money and had begun tallying their costs, from electric bills to worn carpets. Others said they probably would not apply for the funds, fearing donations would dry up if the public came to believe they were receiving government handouts.

"Volunteer labor is just that: volunteer," said the Rev. Robert E. Reccord, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's North American Mission Board. "We would never ask the government to pay for it."

When Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, religious charities rushed in to provide emergency services, often acting more quickly and efficiently than the government. Relief workers in the stricken states estimate that 500,000 people have taken refuge in facilities run by religious groups.

In the days after the disaster, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) and other Republicans complained that FEMA seemed reluctant to pay church groups. "There are tons of questions about what is reimbursable, what is not reimbursable," DeLay said Sept. 13, noting that Houston alone had "500 or 600 churches that took in evacuees, and they would get no reimbursement."

Becker said he and his staff at the Red Cross also urged FEMA to allow reimbursement of religious groups. Ordinarily, Becker said, churches provide shelter for the first days after a disaster, then the Red Cross takes over. But in a storm season that has stretched every Red Cross shelter to the breaking point, church buildings must for the first time house evacuees indefinitely.

Even so, Lynn, of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said that federal reimbursement is inappropriate.

"The good news is that this work is being done now, but I don't think a lot of people realize that a lot of these organizations are actively working to obtain federal funds. That's a strange definition of charity," he said.

Lynn added that he accepts the need for the government to coordinate with religious groups in a major disaster, but not to "pay for their good works."

"We've never complained about using a religious organization as a distribution point for food or clothing or anything else," Lynn said. But "direct cash reimbursements would be unprecedented."

FEMA outlined the policy in a Sept. 9 internal memorandum on "Eligible Costs for Emergency Sheltering Declarations." Religious groups, like secular nonprofit groups, will have to do ent their costs and file for reimbursement from state and local emergency management agencies, which in turn will seek funds from FEMA.

David Fukitomi, infrastructure coordinator for FEMA in Louisiana, said that the organization has begun briefings for potential applicants in the disaster area but that it is too early to know how many will take advantage of the program.

"The need was so overwhelming that the faith-based groups stepped up, and we're trying to find a way to help them shoulder some of the burden for doing the right thing," he said, adding that "the churches are interested" but that "part of our effort is getting the local governments to be interested in being their sponsor."

A spokeswoman for the Salvation Army said it has been in talks with state and federal officials about reimbursement for the 76,000 nights of shelter it has provided to Katrina survivors so far. But it is still unclear whether the Salvation Army will qualify, she said.

The Rev. Flip Benham, director of Operation Save America, an antiabortion group formerly known as Operation Rescue, said, "Separation of church and state means nothing in a time of disaster; you see immediately what a farce it is."

Benham said that his group has been dispensing food and clothing and that "Bibles and tracts go out with everything we put out." In Mendenhall, Miss., he said, he preached to evacuees while the mayor directed traffic and the sheriff put inmates from the county jail to work handing out supplies.

Yet Benham said he would never accept a dime from the federal government. "The people have been so generous to give that for us to ask for reimbursement would be like gouging for gas," he said. "That would be a crime against heaven."

For some individual churches, however, reimbursement is very appealing. At Christus Victor Lutheran Church in Ocean Springs, Miss., as many as 200 evacuees and volunteer workers have been sleeping each night in the sanctuary and Sunday school classrooms. The church's entrance hall is a Red Cross reception area and medical clinic. As many as 400 people a day are eating in the fellowship hall.

Suzie Harvey, the parish administrator, said the church was asked by the Red Cross and local officials to serve as a shelter. The church's leadership agreed immediately, without anticipating that nearly a quarter of its 650 members would be rendered homeless and in no position to contribute funds. "This was just something we had to do," she said. "Later we realized we have no income coming in."

Harvey said the electric bill has skyrocketed, water is being used round-the-clock and there has been "20 years of wear on the carpet in one month." When FEMA makes money available, she said, the church definitely will apply.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

[MiNuS]

?

Allah,Buddah,or Jesus Christ?

today's modern "god" is money and greed.

[xrayzebra]

The following editorial kinda reminds me of someone who post, like 14 threads on the first page alone.


The left and hysteria
Dennis Prager


September 27, 2005


If you want to understand the Left, the best place to start is with an understanding of hysteria. Leading leftists either use hysteria as a political tactic or are actually hysterics.

Take almost any subject the Left discusses and you will find hysteria.

The Patriot Act: According to leftist spokesmen and groups, the Patriot Act is a grave threat to liberty and democracy. It is frequently likened to the tactics of a fascist state. This is pure hysteria. The Los Angeles Times recently published statistics concerning the use of the Act. Through 2004, of the 7,136 complaints to the Justice Department's inspector general, one was related to the Patriot Act. The number of "sneak and peek" warrants, allowing searches without telling a subject, totaled 155. The number of roving wiretaps was 49, and the number of personal records seizures under Section 215 of the Act was 35.

The war in Iraq: It is not enough for leftist opponents of the war to argue that the war is a mistake, was initiated due to faulty intelligence, or is being poorly prosecuted. Rather they charge that President Bush lied, that the war was waged for Halliburton, and that America is engaged in a criminal and imperialist enterprise. Each charge is a form of hysteria.

Risks to health: Not everyone who believes the hysterical claims of danger made about secondhand smoke, baby formula, dodgeball or Bextra is on the Left. But the Left leads the country in hysteria over dangers to health. That is why leftist organizations are generally incapable of merely saying that something is unhealthy. The danger must be described as the killer of hundreds of thousands and often be ascribed to some murderous corporate conspiracy.

Environment: More people may be attacked by aardvarks in any given year than visit the remote and frozen region of Alaska known as the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR). It is the home, however, of vast oil reserves and many caribou. Good people can differ on whether or not to drill for oil there. But the rhetoric of the Left is hysterical. Listening to leftist organizations one would think that drilling would bring no benefit to America and would render the caribou virtually extinct. None of this is true. It is all drama.

Likewise there is largely hysteria over global warming and the charge that man -- especially Americanus -- is the cause of it. The great number of scientists who claim that we are in a normal warming period or in no major weather change at all are ignored. Only the most hysterical scenarios are offered by the Left. Witness the reasons given for Hurricane Katrina. Yet even The New York Times reported that scientists are virtually unanimous in denying that the hurricane has anything to do with global warming.

Animal rights: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) is the living embodiment of hysteria. Take their program "Holocaust on your plate," which equates barbecuing chickens with the cremating of the Jews in the Holocaust. It is one thing to be concerned about chickens' welfare, but only hysterics compare eating them with the slaughter of a people.

Racism: There is no worse charge than racism. Acting hatefully toward people because of their skin color is among the most vile acts a person can engage in. Yet the Left throws that charge around as if it were the essence of the American people (which, come to think of it, is what many on the Left believe). Most of the time, however, the charge of racism -- such as when it is directed at opponents of race-based affirmative action -- is just another example of hysteria.

Christianity: Most on the Left really believe that this country is on the verge of a theocracy because George W. Bush is an evangelical Christian, because the words "under God" are still in the Pledge of Allegiance, and because most Americans don't think marriage ought to be redefined.

Other examples abound. America neglects its poor, beats up its gays, oppresses its women, fouls its environment, ignores its children's educations, denies blacks their votes, and invades other countries for corporate profits: These are common accusations of the Left.

No event is free of leftist hysteria. On the third day after Katrina, civil rights activist Randall Robinson reported that blacks in New Orleans were resorting to cannibalism. Indeed, most of the news media coverage bordered on the hysterical. Not to mention the hysterical predictions of 10,000-plus dead in New Orleans.

None of this is to deny that the Right also gets hysterical. Some right-wing reactions to immigration and Terry Schiavo provide such examples.

But the irony in all of this is that the Left sees itself as the side that thinks intellectually and non-emotionally. And that is hysterical.



©2005 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

[MiNuS]

can you pleeeeeeeeeease summerize what you read instead of using copy & paste!

[Spurminator]

Note that the Repubs are exploiting/corrupting the hurricane disasters by paying back, and continuing to purchase, the religious nuts' loyalty.

These "religious nuts" played a key role in helping Katrina evacuees. Believe whatever you want about whether or not the government should be reimbursing them, but to insult people who came together so admirably to help those in need, no matter what faith they are, is patently offensive.

Besides, many of the churches and faith based organizations who provided relief were made up of a high percentage of African Americans. I wouldn't say those "religious nuts" have been especially loyal to the Republican Party.

There are plenty of causes for concern relating to the government being involved with religious organizations. Reimbursement for aid rendered after one of America's worst natural disasters is not one of them.

But if any faith based organization comes to your aid during a time of need, do be sure and let them know what you think of them.

[boutons]

agreed, scratch the "nuts"

but the point remains, the faith-based orgs, doing wonderful, non-profit charity work, risk being co-opted and turned into just more Repub sub-contractors.

And you know come election time, the compromised reverends will be hyping voting for the "prime contractor".

It's a dangerous precedent, and absolutely "in character" for the all-corrupting Repubs to go there.

[Spurminator]

What's the difference between a secular organization donating time and supplies to a relief effort and a secular organization providing the same supplies? Why should one be reimbursed but not the other? It's not like they're getting money for distibuting Bibles out there. And if they are, then that's a problem.

Instead of looking at this with political tunnel vision, consider the greater good.

[xrayzebra]

agreed, scratch the "nuts"

but the point remains, the faith-based orgs, doing wonderful, non-profit charity work, risk being co-opted and turned into just more Repub sub-contractors.

And you know come election time, the compromised reverends will be hyping voting for the "prime contractor".


It's a dangerous precedent, and absolutely "in character" for the all-corrupting Repubs to go there.

You mean like when Clinton and other Demo's make political speechs at black churchs?

[scott]

Not surprising considering the research I have done that shows Christians as over 200 times more likely to incarcerated than non-Christians.

[Medvedenko]

Those that are truly Christlike are not prone to criminal behaviour

That quote alone makes me laugh.....remember, you are forgiven of all your sins as long as you ask.

What's truly "Christlike"....like killing in the name of your god...or maybe molesting a young boy. Hey maybe persecuting other humans that don't believe in your ideology.

[SpursWoman]

Not surprising considering the research I have done that shows Christians as over 200 times more likely to incarcerated than non-Christians.

No, I believe in prison is where they actually find religion, scott.

[SpursWoman]

agreed, scratch the "nuts"

but the point remains, the faith-based orgs, doing wonderful, non-profit charity work, risk being co-opted and turned into just more Repub sub-contractors.

And you know come election time, the compromised reverends will be hyping voting for the "prime contractor".

It's a dangerous precedent, and absolutely "in character" for the all-corrupting Repubs to go there.

[Jelly]

Not surprising considering the research I have done that shows Christians as over 200 times more likely to incarcerated than non-Christians.

umm...have you ever heard of quoting sources? Or should we just accept your ambiguous "research" as fact?

If that's the case, let me join in on the fun......
My research indicates that Canadians commit adultery at a rate of over 200 times that of Peruvians.

[scott]

No, I believe in prison is where they actually find religion, scott.

That is something that I attempted to control for. I estimated that the act of incarceration added to the propensity to "become Christian", but it did not explain away the increased likelyhood of a Christian to be incarcerated.

[scott]

umm...have you ever heard of quoting sources or citations?

It's my own academic research, I made that very clear. No need to cite myself. I have advanced degrees in economics and statistics, you can take that into account and believe me or not believe me.

[SpursWoman]

Maybe or maybe not relevant to the thread, but would this explain that indescribably awesome feeling I get right after a long, hard workout at the gym? The one that's a cross between really good sex and the feeling I get when I just leave church?

[jochhejaam]

What's truly "Christlike"....like killing in the name of your god...or maybe molesting a young boy. .

?? One of the dumbest questions I've ever run across...ever.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are totally ignorant of the life Christ lived.
If you are aware of the life he lived and still think those assertions represent Christ (Christlike) then you are an utter fool.
Either way, at this point in your life, you're a loser.

[Jelly]

It's my own academic research, I made that very clear. No need to cite myself. I have advanced degrees in economics and statistics, you can take that into account and believe me or not believe me.

Anyone with an advanced degree knows they need to cite at least some sources and data. You offer none. Sorry, but message board claims of "credibility" are meaningless. I choose to not believe you.