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Im sure Knicks and Jazz fans feel similarly.As you may have noticed, Pistons' and Pacers' fans are not so enamored of MJ as the rest of the NBA world.
I can't agree that Jordan was a jerk because I have never met the man, but I totally believe that he wanted to win for his own legacy. Still, I don't believe he was a bad teammate because he did things to help his teammates win games. Setting them up in position to do so, like Paxson's and Kerr's winning shots in the playoffs. To me, getting your teammates involved in your team's success is a good teammate. He may very well be a jerk off the court and in practice, but as long as he was part of the team on the court and does his job and helped others on the court to win games, that is all I would ask of a teammate.As long as we all agree that Jordan was a jerk, then this is settled. I was sick of hearing how Jordan was so driven and his whole goal was to win when in fact, he has said that he wants to win with himself being the main reason. The man was very consciously trying to win for his own glory.
Just my .02.
Last edited by samikeyp; 10-24-2007 at 10:01 AM.
Im sure Knicks and Jazz fans feel similarly.As you may have noticed, Pistons' and Pacers' fans are not so enamored of MJ as the rest of the NBA world.
Ask Jerry Krause.
if you really read The Jordan Rules like you claim, then it's pretty odd of you to reference Jerry Krause as some reputable source to talk about ego.
Jerry Krause was an idiot. I thought you started this discussion talking about stuff you read in the Jordan Rules. I seriously think you didn't read that book, otherwise you would know that Krause is an absolute in moron.
haha, you beat me to it.
Well, they weren't exactly the same. Not to take anything away from Jordan, but it was a combination of the Bulls coming into their own and the Pistons slowly declining. The Bulls took them to seven games in the Piston's second championship year. Detroit then lost Mahorn to expansion, while a much younger Bulls team had Pippen and Horace Grant improve upon their previous year, since they were both on the upswing of their careers. Also, the Bulls were hungrier. Jordan and his team were obsessed with toppling Detroit, while Detroit's chemistry wasn't that great that year and they were fat and happy from winning two les. They basically did to Detroit what the Pistons once did to Boston.
I don't remember 100%, but didn't Pippen steal the pass, passed it to Grant, and then Grant set up Paxson for the series clinching shot vs. Phoenix in 93? If you are talking about the 91 playoffs vs. the Lakers, where Paxson scored like 20 points, then yeah, I think Jordan had a hand in that.
It was about how Jordan never destroyed a team.
And I read that book when it came out, so it was what? 15 years ago? What is wrong with it and Krause's ego?
You really didn't read that book dude. If you did, it wouldn't be "i think jordan had a hand in that."
no, he was the main hand in that. as I recall, they had a timeout, and Jordan already knew why they called the timeout, as Phil Jackson asked him "who is open, Michael?" and he said "Paxson." and that was the end of that. he penetrated like he had been all game, but when it got to a point they focused too much to ask any man to handle, he would use that attention that he drew, to free up Paxson for the kickout and a wide open jumper.
Read it again then. Krause had a ridiculous ego. Not to mention he was an overlysensitive mofo that cried to Jerry Reinsdorf because he couldn't handle a couple jokes from Jordan and the rest of the team, who refered to him as "crumbs" because he was such a messy eater, and had a very strange, egotistical, and annoying personality.
How did having a hand in that contradict with what the book stated? Did say "Bull , Jordan sucked, he didn't pass the ball, it was all Pippen and Jackson"?
It has come to a point where you are simply arguing for arguing's sake, even when what I said agreed with what you did.
It seems to me that you are just trying to find a way to discredit anything Jordan did. Like I said, if you read the book, it wouldnt just be a "possibility" that Jordan had a hand in it. You wouldn't just say "I think" he had a hand in it. He was the ONLY hand in it, and it was basically at the climax of the book, so I don't see how someone that read it, could not remember that.
Also talked about the gravy stains too, how does that show Jordan didn't have a hand in dismantling the team after 98? Their public spats were well-known, Jackson, Jordan and Pippen was clashed repeatedly with management throughout their run, and it takes two to clash, just like Kobe's ego wouldn't have any effect if it didn't meet with Shaq's.
Kobe have as much to do with the Lakers breaking up as Shaq (maybe less, given the "Are you going to pay me now?" comments by Shaq), and Jordan has as much in dismantling the Bull as Krause.
There was also talk about Kukoc getting grilled by Jordan and Pippen because he was Krause's pet project, and absolutely nothing to do with his basketball ability.
if you want to blame someone for the breakup of the Bulls, look no further than Jerry Krause. His personality was grating on all the players, and in fact, they all banded behind Jordan in showing their dislike of Krause.
Krause was eager to get rid of Michael & Phil just to prove that he could build a winner without them.
When did I say it was merely a possibility? I said I think it was, just like I think Jordan didn't pass to Paxson in 93. I read the book 15 years ago, I watched that play 14 years ago, I don't remember exactly what happened or what I read, I remember bits and pieces of it.
My memory is not served for the purposes of remembering solely basketball related subjects.
"Dismantling" a team by retiring is completely different than acting like a little crybaby to PURPOSELY dismantle it.
And Kukoc was getting grilled because Krause spent way too much time talking to a guy that was never truly planning on coming here, since at the time, he could have made more money in Europe. They were spending time and money on him, instead of pursuing other proven, quality players (true point guards in particular) that were available, such as Derek Harper, or Danny Ainge. Even Jackson was pissed with Kukoc because he was taking up way too much of the Bulls time, when he knew that he wasn't going to come any time soon, that he was just using the Bulls as a way to negotiate with a team in Europe.
That was one part they talked about in the book that actually bonded the team, was that they all hated Krause equally. Do you remember that part, ambchang, or are you going to conveniently "forget" more crap?
I stand corrected on the Paxson shot, but my opinion of Jordan remains unchanged.
That despite the fact that Jerry Buss, Phil Jackson and later on Kobe Bryant came out and said that he never requested Shaq traded, and even Shaq himself coming out that Kobe didn't have a hand in the trade.
Kobe has been villianized by the press over and over again, but some of the allegations were simply untrue.
Yes, the team bonded while ultimately led to the team breaking up and not having the chance of winning more les. Certainly a great way to be a leader.
I'm not saying that Kobe asked for Shaq to be traded. But the way he acted like a baby to the team and on a personal scale, got to the point that no one wanted to deal with him. Jackson himself said that for a while, Kobe was too difficult of a player for him to coach.
They won 6 les. I really don't see how you can discredit the team for winning 6 les. That's simply ignorant and stupid.
All things come to an end. In this case, the team came to an end with Jordan's retirement. Much like the showtime Lakers were done once Kareem retired and Magic got AIDS. Are you going to tell me that Magic is a terrible leader because he was too busy ing multiple es at the same time?
Buck got the AIDS.
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