Human Nature

[101A]

I agree profs are committed to teaching, for the most part. The exceptions are the ones who are committed to research, and see teaching as this thing they have to do for their job.

The vast majority of Universities have a very small research component; and the profs are heavily loaded down with teaching loads; the notable exceptions are the large state schools (UT, A&M, TTECH) - of which in Texas there are a preponderance - kind of a lopsided view of what exists other places - HOWEVER, for a dedicated student, those research profs are vast resources of knowledge and ability; getting at it, as you hint at, is another story.

Administrators, on the other hand, especially if they are political appointments... I believe the new president of Texas A&M said in not so many words that his vision was to make sure his student-customers are satisfied. In my view, this makes him prima facie incompetent, but he's a Perry crony, so that's not surprising.

I was network admin at TAMU in '95; in Vet Medicine. Set up workstations for 2 separate State Senators who were put in place as administrator of this or that - nice offices (I assume pretty good salaries as well). Couldn't tell WTF they actually DID.

[101A]

Not just that, but i think everyone can agree that not all ins utions are equal.

I think we can all agree that Harvard > UTSA > ITT Tech

The difference is generally % of high quality profs; Harvard, obviously, is going to have a great many.

The secret is that EVERY school I have seen has at least a few. Could be a local guy who made it big, but wanted to move back home; or a family with a top notch prof. liked a specific school district a University happened to be near - point being, the true value in higher education is at some of the bigger "party" schools - check up on the professors, look at their grant and publication histories; there are some real studs hiding out all over the country; take THOSE professors, and you get them for $.05 on the $1.00. Now, of course, you might have a lower GPA, from a school with a not so great reputation; but you can have a great education, which will serve you better.

I have hired many people; never once asked for a transcript.

[Blake]

I should link her "ratemyprofessor" page; but we're not quite THAT familiar on here; in short; she doesn't.

What she does do is go above and beyond with assistance to those students who never should have been in the class in the first place. 2-3 study sessions prior to tests, etc....but still a lot of the idiot students don't come to those.

Her reviews from her Freshman classes suck bad because she DOESN'T play the game that way - she comes up for tenure next year; only then will we find out how much her idealism costs. It's not all professors, but those who are having to support a family on that job have to do what they have to do. My wife has some flexibility in that regard.

I can't really say with any real certainty, but I would think that the administration is well aware of the fact that flunking students most likely will give bad evaluations out of spite.

I would also think (hope) that it is taken into account when sorting through those evaluations when an administrator is evaluating a professor.

[Blake]

The difference is generally % of high quality profs; Harvard, obviously, is going to have a great many.

The secret is that EVERY school I have seen has at least a few. Could be a local guy who made it big, but wanted to move back home; or a family with a top notch prof. liked a specific school district a University happened to be near - point being, the true value in higher education is at some of the bigger "party" schools - check up on the professors, look at their grant and publication histories; there are some real studs hiding out all over the country; take THOSE professors, and you get them for $.05 on the $1.00. Now, of course, you might have a lower GPA, from a school with a not so great reputation; but you can have a great education, which will serve you better.

no doubt.

There is also no doubt that you will have a high percentage of exceptional professors throught a college career at Harvard.

You basically have to get lucky at UTSA.

I have hired many people; never once asked for a transcript.

if you are at a law firm and you have to choose between two basically equal candidates, except that one went to Harvard Law while one went to UT Law, who do you choose?

Putting school allegiances aside, chances are, Harvard Law guy gets the job.

[RandomGuy]

You have no idea. One of CHIEF barometers used to judge my wife's "performance" is student evaluations. Near the end of a semester students are given a note card with 3 or 4 categories, and a 5 number scale for each. ALL students responses are given equal weight - the senior major with a 3.9 vs. the Freshman whose about to flunk out, and this is his/her parting shot. What is a professor to do to make sure they don't get excoriated by those evaluations? Make tests easier; give extra credit; , just bump the grades up a letter each. Self-preservation being what it is, many professor do just that. Those that don't get tough reviews; and chastisement from their dept./dean.

Last semester I helped my wife grade some Freshman Chemistry tests; on the first page she had a series of metric conversions for the kids to do; fewer than 40% could convert from cm to mm. THOSE students got to evaluate her.

When I went to school, the professor, the school, everyone as far as I was concerned, could give two s what I thought of the professor.

How then do colleges figure out which of their professors are actually teaching?

I had some rather poor teachers, as has my wife. Should a college simply ignore the fact that the majority of the students taking a particular course are failing? How does one determine whether it is the students or the professor?

Not trying to be difficult, but merely trying to point out the other side of the issue.

[101A]

How then do colleges figure out which of their professors are actually teaching?

Some colleges don't appear to care (seriously). They are looking for tuition $$ - and to meet enrollment goals; flunking students is not a good way to do that - tying professor rankings to student evaluations, which are to a large degree tied to grades, however, helps make sure the professors aren't chasing off the clients.

I had some rather poor teachers, as has my wife. Should a college simply ignore the fact that the majority of the students taking a particular course are failing? How does one determine whether it is the students or the professor?

That can be challenging, frankly - but to a large degree, in college, the onus of learning ought to be on the student; there is a reason professors have NEVER taken classes on HOW to teach - the ADULTS they are dealing with ought to do the reading, be able to pay attention to the lecture, STUDY - and learn the subject matter. That was understood when I was in school - however, now, to a large degree the students EXPECT much more; powerpoint presentations, lively lectures - hands on this and that; basically it is the professor's job to KEEP them interested. Also, they expect the lecture to be posted on line, and often lecture notes as well. They expect study guides prior to tests. If a professor knows their , and does all of that, I am comfortable in hanging poor performance on the students.

What we have begun to recognize is the system is become seriously broken. When the lackadaisical professors teach the pre-req classes, give lots of "A's" and pass the kids along; they get seriosly bitter when they stumble into my wife's Biochem 301 class, having been passed through high school, then through the first couple of years of college, and are met with a class that is merciless. This class begins to tie ALL of your Chemistry, Biology and Calculus together in one big intellectual orgy (yes my children are all smarter than me) - and these (up to this point happy go lucky 3.8 average) students get flattened. This one seperates those that have a shot at med/grad school from those that don't; it should happen sooner, IMO - by then kids are Juniors, and think they are O.K; only to learn they aren't so much.

Not trying to be difficult, but merely trying to point out the other side of the issue.

[101A]

no doubt.

There is also no doubt that you will have a high percentage of exceptional professors throught a college career at Harvard.

You basically have to get lucky at UTSA.

If you do your homework, it doesn't have to be luck; Just search the last names, check out their publications - note where they are from; you can figure out the pedigree of someone pretty quick (where they got THEIR education, and who they studied under). Also check out rate my professor; gravitate to those profs that consistently get "hard as " by their names.

if you are at a law firm and you have to choose between two basically equal candidates, except that one went to Harvard Law while one went to UT Law, who do you choose?

Putting school allegiances aside, chances are, Harvard Law guy gets the job.

University of Texas Law in Texas probably has a leg up, frankly - of a Law School; St. Mary's would be a better example, but point taken.

[Blake]

If you do your homework, it doesn't have to be luck; Just search the last names, check out their publications - note where they are from; you can figure out the pedigree of someone pretty quick (where they got THEIR education, and who they studied under). Also check out rate my professor; gravitate to those profs that consistently get "hard as " by their names.

if you have the money and resources to pick your school, that's great.....

but UTSA is currently the only public 4 year university here and once you get into the upper levels in many degree programs, you really don't have a choice in the professor you're going to have if you need to take a certain course.

[RandomGuy]

Some colleges don't appear to care (seriously). They are looking for tuition $$ - and to meet enrollment goals; flunking students is not a good way to do that - tying professor rankings to student evaluations, which are to a large degree tied to grades, however, helps make sure the professors aren't chasing off the clients.

That can be challenging, frankly - but to a large degree, in college, the onus of learning ought to be on the student; there is a reason professors have NEVER taken classes on HOW to teach - the ADULTS they are dealing with ought to do the reading, be able to pay attention to the lecture, STUDY - and learn the subject matter. That was understood when I was in school - however, now, to a large degree the students EXPECT much more; powerpoint presentations, lively lectures - hands on this and that; basically it is the professor's job to KEEP them interested. Also, they expect the lecture to be posted on line, and often lecture notes as well. They expect study guides prior to tests. If a professor knows their , and does all of that, I am comfortable in hanging poor performance on the students.

What we have begun to recognize is the system is become seriously broken. When the lackadaisical professors teach the pre-req classes, give lots of "A's" and pass the kids along; they get seriosly bitter when they stumble into my wife's Biochem 301 class, having been passed through high school, then through the first couple of years of college, and are met with a class that is merciless. This class begins to tie ALL of your Chemistry, Biology and Calculus together in one big intellectual orgy (yes my children are all smarter than me) - and these (up to this point happy go lucky 3.8 average) students get flattened. This one seperates those that have a shot at med/grad school from those that don't; it should happen sooner, IMO - by then kids are Juniors, and think they are O.K; only to learn they aren't so much.

I am RandomGuy and I concur 100% with this post.

I will say this jives with a lot of what my wife has encountered: people expecting spoon-fed to them.

I occasionally spend a lunch hour answering questions on Yahoo Answers (RandomGuy from Texas, so sue me for unoriginality) and am surprised/disapppointed by the amount of obvious homework questions that are there.

If you answer these questions with something that just points them to the answer by telling them the process without actually giving it to the asker, you get punked when it comes time to the asker choosing the "best answer" in favor of the person who just gave them the answer and no explanation how they got that.

THAT said:

There are professors who are just ty teachers.

One can expect adults to learn and study, but if the tests that determine the grade were written by a professor who just made up the test off the top of their head, and never quite taught or indicated to the students the specific information on the test then you can get a situation where the test material is nowhere in either the lectures or the textbooks, and no matter how much diligence the student does, they will not do well.

[RandomGuy]

I will also relate that she has had one professor that literally spoon-fed the entire test at an after-hours voluntary review.

The professor quite literally went through the review item by item, and she found out the next day that the professor had obviously just read through the test line by line.

There were still people that failed. She is in one of those "party" schools, btw, and is rather appalled, as I was in my classes, at the amount of parentally-supplied tuition money that appears to be wasted.

[101A]

I will also relate that she has had one professor that literally spoon-fed the entire test at an after-hours voluntary review.

The professor quite literally went through the review item by item, and she found out the next day that the professor had obviously just read through the test line by line.

There were still people that failed. She is in one of those "party" schools, btw, and is rather appalled, as I was in my classes, at the amount of parentally-supplied tuition money that appears to be wasted.

Things are the same everywhere.

Fortunately, if my kids are going to piss away college, it won't cost me anything.

[RandomGuy]

Things are the same everywhere.

Fortunately, if my kids are going to piss away college, it won't cost me anything.

I am going to advise my boys to work/travel for a few years before starting college and get all the partying out of their system first.

They can go straight to college if they want to, and I will provide matching funds for whatever they earn, but the second that I see the first "C" I will pull any support and that money will not come back.

The military is generally a good place to grow up for a few years after high school, or at least it used to be, before Iraq.

Something tells me that we will still be around central/southeast asia by the time my 5 year old is eligble.

[Winehole23]

Honestly, do you have to go to some sort of reverse college to get this dumb? One where you take courses specifically designed to make you sound mentally challenged?

US public schools, for example.

[DarkReign]

US public schools, for example.

Try the fish and dont forget to tip your waitress...ya-ooooo!

(doesnt make your statement less true, however)

[Winehole23]

Try the fish and dont forget to tip your waitress...ya-ooooo!

Ah, thank you. I'll be here all week...

[Winehole23]

if i wanted lessons in how to elevate the hissy fit and the rant to high art you'd be my huckelberry.

You need the lessons.

However Christ and Buddah were both simple and plain spoken and they were able to heal minds bodies and souls, and elevate the connciousness of mul udes, whereas your ability seems to articulate with keeness, and great skill a mind full of .

I would always expect to lose in the comparison. You're not too far off IMO, even though you're playing with loaded dice.

[LnGrrrR]

why is it a fallacy? maybe in some cases they are wise, wisdom is not measured in linguistic and grammatical muscle. And in some cases, you're right, some people are just lazy.

Wise people know there is always more to learn.

[LnGrrrR]

What we have begun to recognize is the system is become seriously broken. When the lackadaisical professors teach the pre-req classes, give lots of "A's" and pass the kids along; they get seriosly bitter when they stumble into my wife's Biochem 301 class, having been passed through high school, then through the first couple of years of college, and are met with a class that is merciless.

Sounds like politicians who vote pork for their cons uents.