I'm sure Israel is not interested in laying waste to Lebanon. Lebanon gov. has no control in the south or any other part of their country. If they did, hezbollah would be trapped in the south. Many lebanese are grateful to hezbollah because of their charity, schools, hospital funding. Thats how you win a people over.
Israel has little choice.
So now that we're at this point, I wonder how this comes to a conclusive end without an escalation at some point that involves nothing short of a large scale invasion of Lebanon. Surely no one things Israel is going to bomb Hezbollah out of existance. Because if the plan is to bomb untill Hezbollah capitulates then the people in charge are rather idiotic.
And really, even if you invade Lebanon, unless Israel plans on keeping troops there for a long long time, how do they plan to keep Hezbollah out of the area? Hezbollah members will simply flee into Syria so where does the strategy then take you?
The Israeli warhawks have undertaken a strategy that provides short term satisfaction in terms of giving the people spilled blood in return for blood that has been spilled but how will this work in the long term with anything short of a large ground war that eventually takes Israel's army into Syria?
One thing is clear to anyone who wishes to see it. Hezbollah will not die, it will have to be killed. I'm not sure Israel has the stomach to make sure that happens. Bombing Lebanon's airports, highways and power plants may give the appearence of having some use, but what is it going to accomplish in the long run?
Make for damn good television
Yesterday Iran, today Syria...
Haifa-hit rockets were Syrian made
CJPosthief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz said on Sunday afternoon that the more advanced Fajar missiles that were fired with a barrage of other rockets at Haifa on Sunday morning, killing eight people, were made in Syria
Still waiting for them to lay the blame on lil Kim.
lil Kim is pissed off that this is taking away from him. He is sitting and pouting and
hitting the old bottle hard(er).
You know, finally there is a government willing to do something in that region. I say go balls out!
it! Who wanted to live forever anyway?
I hope Israel declares war on the entire region and fist- s everyone. CNN will be on 24 hour watch again in my house. I am so sick and tired of bending over for these Muslim ers, I dont even care anymore.
Hopefully, some day, this country will realize that some people dont belong in your borders. Dont kill em, just 'Return to Sender'.
then kill em
Israel, meanwhile, seems to have no interest in another occupation..
MATT MOORE
Associated Press
GLOBE AND MAILJERUSALEM — Israeli ground troops entered southern Lebanon to attack Hezbollah bases on the border, but they rapidly returned to Israel after conducting their military operations, officials said Monday.
Israel's six-day-old offensive against Hezbollah following the capture of two Israeli soldiers has been primarily an aerial campaign, but government spokesman, Asaf Shariv, said the Israeli army chief of staff confirmed that ground troops had gone into Lebanon, if only briefly.
A military official, insisting on anonymity, said a small group of Israeli troops had crossed into Lebanon overnight to attack a Hezbollah position but then returned to Israel.
“There was a small operation in a very limited area overnight,” the official said. “That is over.”
Israel has been reluctant to send ground troops into southern Lebanon, an area that officials say has been heavily mined by Hezbollah and could lead to many Israeli casualties.
Israel would also want to quickly withdraw from the area, rather than get involved in a prolonged conflict like its 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon that ended in May, 2000. The bloody nature of the fighting at the that time and the high number of casualties finally forced the government to cave into public pressure to withdraw from southern Lebanon and end the contentious occupation.
Well, if they think they can bomb them into submission I wish them luck in their foolish games.
More on Israeli intentions in Lebanon...
LA Timessnip
Israeli commanders said today that Israel intended to enforce a no-go zone extending about a half-mile north of the border. Israel also confirmed what an army spokesman described as a "very small incursion" overnight to dismantle Hezbollah positions, returning to Israel before first light. No casualties were reported.
The developments came one day after Israel and Hezbollah escalated their blood feud, as dozens of Lebanese died during airstrikes across their nation and the eight Israelis were killed when militants slammed rockets into the port city of Haifa. As explosions shook the earth and families cowered in shelters, both sides vowed to deliver even fiercer blows in the days to come. And world leaders struggled to find a diplomatic path out of the bloodshed.
snip
Although Israel's clash is with Hezbollah, the attacks on this seaside country appear to have done far greater damage to Lebanese civilians and infrastructure. Hezbollah has continued to shoot an unabated barrage of rockets into Israel, in turn frequently hitting civilians, even after Israeli missiles shattered the airport and highways, struck predominantly Christian neighborhoods and drove thousands of people from their homes.
Israel has attacked Hezbollah offices and the headquarters of the group's leader. But about 1,500 airstrikes have also targeted a lighthouse, grain silos, power plants, bridges, airports and a truck packed with children, targets with no apparent relationship to Hezbollah.
"Why are we killing each other? Why are we creating these victims?" asked 60-year-old Yemen Srour, a Lebanese woman whose home was crushed and family members wounded in Sunday morning attacks on Beirut's southern suburbs.
Crouched on a thin foam mattress at a makeshift refugee shelter in Beirut, Srour used the tails of her Islamic head scarf to dab the tears from her cheeks. "I don't think there is a point to this," she said.
Despite the relentless bombings, Israel has not disrupted Hezbollah's leadership or smashed the militants' ability to wage guerrilla war, said Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's chief.
snip
Former Israeli army chief of staff Shaul Mofaz, now a Cabinet minister, described the rockets used in the Haifa strike as "Syrian ammunition." Israel also said Hezbollah had made first use of Iranian-made Fajr missiles, with a 25-mile range and a much bigger warhead. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice echoed the criticism of Syria and Iran on Sunday, blaming them in part for the crisis.
"I absolutely see that Syria and Iran are playing a part in this. They're not even trying to hide their hand," Rice said in an interview on CBS' "Face the Nation." Rice declined to say whether the U.S. would go so far as to support Israel if it chose to strike Iran in retaliation for that country's alleged role in some of the missile strikes hitting Israel.
Many Lebanese scoff at criticism that Hezbollah is using Iranian-made weaponry, pointing out bitterly that the United States manufactures much of Israel's arsenal.
snip
The Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot reported that elite forces had been deployed in Lebanon.
But Israeli military analysts said a large-scale ground offensive would occur only after military strategists felt that other options — including the air campaign, the naval blockade and the severing of major land routes — had been exhausted.
Utimately, it may be a half-mile buffer zone that Israel is after.
a half mile buffer zone is the equivlant of a bullet proof vest made of saran wrap.
Although Israel's clash is with Hezbollah, the attacks on this seaside country appear to have done far greater damage to Lebanese civilians and infrastructure. Hezbollah has continued to shoot an unabated barrage of rockets into Israel, in turn frequently hitting civilians, even after Israeli missiles shattered the airport and highways, struck predominantly Christian neighborhoods and drove thousands of people from their homes.
Israel has attacked Hezbollah offices and the headquarters of the group's leader. But about 1,500 airstrikes have also targeted a lighthouse, grain silos, power plants, bridges, airports and a truck packed with children, targets with no apparent relationship to Hezbollah.
This is why the fact that Hezbollah can lob missiles 25-30 miles into Israel complicates things.
Exactly, which is why I don't see anything short of a ground invasion fixing this. And even then, they're going to need to go into Syria as well because thats exactly where Hezbollah will flee to.
Either that, or capitulate and release the Islamic prisoners and remove Hezbollah's main reason for existing as a militant wing. Turn it into a political wing if they want to continue to be a part of Lebanon.
So what's the solution, Manny and Dan?
Move Israel to South Carolina.
Very interesting debate between manny/scott/yoni/gtown (i throw in gtown cuz he's like the comedic relief)
I think one thing you all have to realize is that its not necessarily the truth that we have ALL of the truth in this situation. With the available facts, it is definitely arguable that the Israeli bombings are flat out stupid strategy. But how do we, not having the exact intel Israel does, KNOW that these bombings into Beirut, etc, are not taking out important Hizbollah infrastructure, weapons, etc? Putting aside the question of how these attacks will affect the common Lebanese person, how do we know its not really weakening Hizbollah?
Manny seems to not give Israel the benefit of the doubt, but I do. I agree with Yoni on alot of this, but I'm not so neocon that I don't admit Isreal is BLATANTLY using more force than necessary.
What I want to see from all this is Israel go awol. I want them to follow through with what they say, and root out Hizbollah from Lebanon. What I see here are feints within feints within feints. I am thinking that Israel wants Syria and Iran to be out in the open with their support for Hizbollah and then has a hidden card to play after that.
Who's to say that hte U.S. isn't secretly backing this and maybe even planning it for Israel throughout this entire northern offensive? If Iran joins the battle openly, isn't that want the republicans want? More reason to invade htem and take their assets.
It benefits both sides of the U.S. Israel alliance.
I am thinking Israel sticks to its guns, begins a land invasion of lebanon and tries its very best to get syria to get involved. If they are doing this SOLELY for the quieting of Lebanese based Hizbollah activity, without any future plans of a broader offensive, they are in fact MORONS---i just give them more credit than this I guess.
I also have to say that I believ these airstrikes in Lebanon can weaken Hizbollah, but only temporarily. They need to capitilize, use even more disproportionate use of power, and strike as hard as they can to strike the terrorists a crippling blow.
If they air strike, and just twiddle their thumbs, then it appears Manny has owned you all.
One last thing--on the surface, we see that Israel attacked Lebanon, then Hizbollah unleashed weapons we "didn't know" they had. But what if Israel knew they had them, and expected them to use them, and now confirmed their beliefs? It only connects Syria and Iran further to this terrorist organization. And you all know what the World Police thinks about them terraists! World War Three: Be all that You can be.
Last edited by Cant_Be_Faded; 07-17-2006 at 11:16 PM.
I don't see what the was up with your pussyfooting long post to say such a wasteful sentence.
If Israel does not follow on what they have planned as their objective. Than you're fat ass freind manny had nothing to do with the brilliant discussion.
As you have stated, Israel has to move boldly on this, Manny opposes any bold move, from the outset.
So to your standards, Manny is already ed.
But who gives a about who owns who, and who your favorite poster is, this is not ing USC vs UT, if Israel fails, no one here is a victor.
We will all reap the repurcussions of this.
It's funny how you have owned yourself, by admitting to this terror problem. Only a year ago did i hound you for being a ludicrous dumbass, because you thought that the islamofascist problem was small and that negotiations was the right course to deal with this.
But it took this situation to finally wake you up to realize that the war on terror is not fought in french palaces with pens and papyrus. It is faught with brute force. Diplomacy is dead. Diplomacy is best after the victors have been decided.
Give up more territories.
A little article about the Israeli Air Force.
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
Israel capable of air strike on Iran
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published July 18, 2006
Israel is in the best position militarily in its history to mount air strikes against Iran, after a decade of buying U.S.-produced long-range aircraft, penetrating bombs and aerial refueling tankers.
Tel Aviv has ratcheted up the volume in attacking the hard-line Islamic regime as it fights the Iranian-backed Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. In the past, Israeli politicians have talked openly of attacking Iranian nuclear sites to prevent the U.S.-designated terror state from building atomic warheads.
Israel has purchased 25 $84 million F-15I (I for Israel) Ra'am, a special version of the U.S. F-15E long-range interdiction bomber. It also is buying 102 of another long-range tactical jet, the $45 million F-16I Sufa. About 60 have been delivered.
The Jewish state also is buying 500 U.S. BLU-109 "bunker buster" bombs that could penetrate the concrete protection around some of Iran's underground facilities, such as the uranium enrichment site at Natanz. The final piece of the enterprise is a fleet of B-707 air-to-air refuelers that could nurse strike aircraft as they made the 900-mile-plus trip inside Iran, dropped their bombs and returned to Israel.
"They have the capability to strike Iran," said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas G. McInerney, a former fighter pilot who has trained with Israelis. "It would be limited, though. They could do 30 to 40 'aim points' in the array. I'm not worried about them hitting the targets. They will suffer losses, but they are capable of doing it."
He said Israeli fighter pilots are "the best in the world. I've flown against them. They train better. They get more flying time."
Perhaps just as important as weapon systems is airspace.
The most direct route would be through Jordanian and Iraqi airspace. Two Israeli pilots showed that they could navigate both without being shot down in 1981, when they flew the 600 miles to the Osirak nuclear reactor near Baghdad, dropped their bombs and returned over Jordan to an air base in southern Israel.
Today, the United States, not Saddam Hussein, controls Iraq's vast airspace. Military analysts suggest the United States might approve the mission passively by letting the jets fly both ways unen bered.
Gen. McInerney said the United States must grant airspace rights. "They really can't do this without us," he said. "I wouldn't have them do it. We can do it much more aggressively and more decisively. We shouldn't force the Israelis to do it when we should do it."
The retired pilot called Iran's air defenses "1960s vintage" and not as good as the Iraqi defenses that Israeli pilots avoided in 1981.
Vice President Cheney last year revealed Bush administration su ions that Israel may take pre-emptive action.
"One of the concerns people have is that Israel might do it without being asked, that if, in fact, the Israelis became convinced the Iranians had significant nuclear capability, given the fact that Iran has a stated policy that their objective is the destruction of Israel, the Israelis might well decide to act first, and let the rest of the world worry about cleaning up the diplomatic mess afterwards," he said on the "Imus in the Morning" radio show.
In the Osirak strike, both F-16s made the round trip without aerial refueling, but targets in Iran are at least 300 miles farther away. Although the F-15Is and F-16Is have a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles, the numbers would indicate that the mission might require aerial refueling, thus complicating an already daunting operation.
However, the Web site GlobalSecurity.org says the F-15Is and F-16Is "extended flight range reportedly allows Israeli forces to attack targets well within Iran without having to refuel."
Israeli political leaders have pressed the Bush administration to halt Iran's nuclear weapons program. At the same time, some have publicly stated that Israel will take unilateral action to destroy Iranian facilities if Washington fails to stop it.
Copyright © 2006 News World Communications, Inc. All rights reserved.
Copyright The Washington Times valeoip beacon
Well, there's always the possibility of meaningful negotiations between the two sides. You know, Israel could give up the rest of the occupied territories and release some of the less dangerous prisoners. Hezbollah could be challenged to change from a militant-wing in a polical-wing, you know, kinda like Al-Sadr in Iraq. Maybe put in a multi-national UN force between the two sides like we did in the former Yugoslavia, if Israel would allow it. Turn Jeruselum in a city-state like the Vatican, only not binded to any one religion.
This is a UN problem after all, they put Israel back on the map and this is what years of neglect of the growing tensions between Jews and Palestinians has manifested into.
Noticeably absent from your negotian points is the whole "Israel has no right to exist and will be wiped from the map" position of their enemies.
A) Can you get them to put that on the bargaining table?
B) How do you assure Israel they've actually dropped that ambition?
It's a foundational tenet of the PLO (and by proxy the PA), Hamas, Hezbollah, and you've got Iran and Syria singing this tune every day.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
