If you wanted to start a franchise, who would you pick?

[ambchang]

1973-76 Bob McAdoo > Hakeem at his best.
McAdoo has a higher ppg, rpg and FT% than Hakeem, and had similar FT%, and assist #s, the only things Hakeem has on McAdoo are blks and stls.
Not to mention that McAdoo had to go up against greats like Kareem, Dave Cowens, Elvin Hayes, Bob Lanier, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, and Wes Unseld.

[ambchang]

And why in this era is the PPG and FG% is down?

Because the league is watered down for reasons of expansion, declining skill sets, high school players coming right out and not honing their games, etc. You can call it conjecture to state that guys in this era don't have the fundamentals of passing, teamwork, midrange shooting, and running a fastbreak like in previous eras but to people who watched both era's, the vast majority feel that way. MJ didnt average 33 ppg on 50% shooting because the league was different. He did so because of his sick athleticism, jumper, skills, and footwork. Obviously if a league is composed of more talent as it was in the 80's/90's, there will be more scoring and higher FG%.

I whole-hearted disagree with this notion. One needs to look at a single consistent player and see how his performance has changed during the years.
Since you brought up Jordan, I will use his statistics to compare year across year.
With a watered down league, defense should suffer, scoring should suffer on a whole, but individual scoring should increase, because not only does the opposition's defense gets weaker, there is more responsibility for scorers to score.
But when you look at Jordan's career stats, both his ppg and FG% starts a slow decline since his 37.1 ppg year. Well were his skills diminishing? Well clearly not since the Bulls got better in that span, and Jordan's rebounding, minutes and FT% stayed relatively constant. Were his teammates taking more of a scoring burden? If that is true, wouldn't we expect Jordan to have a higher FG% with better shot selection? Shouldn't there be significant changes in his stats during the expansion years? Well, it doesn't seem to be the case.
The only reasonable explanation is that the league's defense is getting better and better.

[ambchang]

Ok, so when Hakeem in his 2nd NBA season took a team that was 2 yrs removed from a lottery to an NBA Finals apperance beating a team with HOF top 10 all time NBA players like Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar (not to mention James Worthy, Michael Cooper), his "leadership and team stank to high heaven and he couldnt will his team to a deep playoff run"

In just his 2nd year, Hakeem led a team with Sampson and a bunch of role players past Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper. A team that was one of the best dynasties in league history.

The hits keep on coming.

Duncan never beat a team of MJ's caliber either, so that doesn't hold weight here. The Spurs had a losing record against Shaq-Kobe in the playoffs. Not conjecture, but fact.

You make it sound like Sampson was chopped liver. Sampson was destined to be one of the best centers in the league before his knees went out. He was better than Robinson in 03, and arguably in 99 when he led the Rockets to the Finals in 86.
And Duncan was 2-3 vs. Shaq and Kobe in his career, including a sound defeat of the 3 time champion Lakers with a supporting cast that includes Parker in his second year, Manu's rookie year, and Robinson's last year. Malik Rose was considered to be an extremely important part of the Spurs, and Stephen Jackson was the 2nd most reliable scorer on the squad.

[bobbyjoe]

I whole-hearted disagree with this notion. One needs to look at a single consistent player and see how his performance has changed during the years.
Since you brought up Jordan, I will use his statistics to compare year across year.
With a watered down league, defense should suffer, scoring should suffer on a whole, but individual scoring should increase, because not only does the opposition's defense gets weaker, there is more responsibility for scorers to score.
But when you look at Jordan's career stats, both his ppg and FG% starts a slow decline since his 37.1 ppg year. Well were his skills diminishing? Well clearly not since the Bulls got better in that span, and Jordan's rebounding, minutes and FT% stayed relatively constant. Were his teammates taking more of a scoring burden? If that is true, wouldn't we expect Jordan to have a higher FG% with better shot selection? Shouldn't there be significant changes in his stats during the expansion years? Well, it doesn't seem to be the case.
The only reasonable explanation is that the league's defense is getting better and better.

Jordan was well into his 30's when expansion started to dilute the league. Nice try, but it's called father time.

If you dont think a player has an advantage playing against inferior compe ion in terms of achieving individual success, I don't know what to tell you.

[BradLohaus]

Duncan having more MVP's than Hakeem would mean something in the context of this discussion if they were in the same era competing heads up for it. But that wasn't the case.

Didn't you say earlier in this thread that since Duncan has never been the DPOY then that is a strike against him?

But the fact that Duncan has more MVP's (and Finals MVP's) is dismissed by you because they didn't compete against each other.

[bobbyjoe]

Except that there were clearly more dominant defensive players in the league when Hakeem was around.

Which is a harder field to win DPOY in?

Group A: Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, Mutombo (younger), David Robinson, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning, Dennis Rodman

or

Group B: Ben Wallace, Ron Artest, Marcus Camby, Bruce Bowen.

Answer me that objectively. I don't think anyone with a straight face could pick Group B.

[BradLohaus]

Except that there were clearly more dominant defensive players in the league when Hakeem was around.

Which is a harder field to win DPOY in?

Group A: Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, Mutombo (younger), David Robinson, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning, Dennis Rodman

or

Group B: Ben Wallace, Ron Artest, Marcus Camby, Bruce Bowen.

Answer me that objectively. I don't think anyone with a straight face could pick Group B.

Group A is better, but they gave the DPOY award to Ben Wallace a couple of years that it should have been Duncan. Everybody knows that Duncan is the best defender in the league; the media likes Wallace because of his style.

My point is that you dismiss everything Duncan wins as either: "teams were better when Hakeem played" or "Duncan has better players around him" or "Elie and Horry said Hakeem is better, so that means he is".

I mean, Hakeem's supporting cast during the 2 le years was pretty damn good. Ralph Sampson was pretty damn good there for awhile. From the time Duncan got into the league people were saying that the Spurs needed more help around Duncan, until Parker and Ginobili got here. Aside from Robinson, who had a bad back for over 5 years, just who were these stars surrounding Duncan from 97 to 02? Still he managed to win divisions and get out of the first round (at least) every year.

I'd like to know what big men you think are better than Hakeem. I'm guessing you think he was the best big man ever.

[gtownspur]

Except that there were clearly more dominant defensive players in the league when Hakeem was around.

Which is a harder field to win DPOY in?

Group A: Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, Mutombo (younger), David Robinson, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning, Dennis Rodman

or

Group B: Ben Wallace, Ron Artest, Marcus Camby, Bruce Bowen.

Answer me that objectively. I don't think anyone with a straight face could pick Group B.

4>2, not even a race.

Duncan > Hakeem

Duncan, best pf ever!!!

Hakeem, best ................. i'm sorry, what was that again.

[gtownspur]

The best guards Hakeem was threaten by the penetration in his run were Kevin Johnson and Penny Hardaway.

Duncan's was Nash, Kobe, Billups, AI, Allen, Kidd.

[gtownspur]

Not to mention, Duncan dismantled a Dynasty, and Hakeem.............. was dismantled by the Sonics.

[gtownspur]

Dirk> tHe dream....... in fishing.

[ambchang]

Jordan was well into his 30's when expansion started to dilute the league. Nice try, but it's called father time.

If you dont think a player has an advantage playing against inferior compe ion in terms of achieving individual success, I don't know what to tell you.

The whole notion is that the compe ion was not inferior, but in fact, superior due to better scouting, conditioning, and defensive philosphies.

[smrattler]

Because I'm a total homer?

No, aside from being one of the most talented ever, Timmy is one of the smartest players ever too. He'll find a way to get it done. Hakeem needed certain things to fall a certain way and that window was short lived because of that.