Reply With Quote
No doubt.It was worse being in the same division. Just trust me on this one...
It was worse being in the same division. Just trust me on this one...
No doubt.It was worse being in the same division. Just trust me on this one...
Didn't Kobe and Shaq win 3 les together? So why isn't Kobe getting a free pass like Jordan? I never came up with the Jordan = terrible leader because he broke up the team, the point originally came as Kobe was terrible because he broke up his team.
Thanks for showing how stupid that original argument was with Kareem and Magic.
Kobe doesn't get a free pass because he was still young, and only starting to hit his prime, and was acting like a bag just to have his own team. It's not like Jordan, who was already starting to get past his prime, and had already done everything that you can ask of an NBA player, and had absolutely nothing else to prove. Jordan didn't get all public and make personal attacks on people just to break up a team for his own "benefit" (which ultimately it has not benefited Kobe one bit at all). Jordan did his thing, then left when he felt his time playing basketball in the NBA was done. Those are VERY different situations.
and another thing... going back to your first post... you said IF Jordan didn't win 6 rings, blah blah blah...
if you wanna play the "woulda coulda" game... then if Tim Duncan didn't win 4 rings, he would be considered the next Karl Malone. If Kevin Garnett won a few rings, he would probably be considered the best PF of all time. If Charles Barkley won a ring or two, no one would consider him a "choker."
the fact is, is that Jordan won 6 rings by being a good team player. he accomplished more than any player in the NBA, and on the court, did exactly what good teammates and great players are supposed to do (and ultimately, you are judged by what you did on the court... not off the court).
Jordan led a revolt against management, "retired", then came back and destroyed the Wizards until he was forced out. How was that not acting like bag to get his own team. Better yet, he was expanding his power of influence in the ranks of management. He arguably earned all of that prestige by leading the Bulls to 6 les, but that was being a bag nonetheless.
The "if" comment was used to illustrate that no one would be changing history and giving him a free pass. The difference is, if Duncan never won any rings, yes he would be on the level of Karl Malone, no doubt, but the thing is, Jordan still wasn't a great teammate despite winning 6 les, just that if he never won it, nobody would be defending him like they do now.
BTW, Barkley wasn't a choker, Malone was. Barkley scored 56 points in a finals game, hit a dagger over Robinson in 93, and carried the 6ers to great heights despite a crappy supporting cast.
How the did he destroy the Wizards when playing there? That team SUCKED, but he had them as playoff contenders in his years there, and was actually pissed at how immature many of the players on the team were. Seriously, you don't know what the you are talking about.
Coulda shoulda woulda... he has his 6 rings, and got them with a very mediocre supporting cast. Of course no one would defend him as much if he doesn't have the 6 rings. Just like if Kobe won a ring without Shaq, there wouldn't be quite as much criticism of him either. But he hasn't won , and hasn't proven that he is capable of being a good teammate on the court, like Jordan was, and he hasn't proven that he is a winner, like Jordan did. Jordan answered all his critics in every aspect possible. Kobe hasn't. They said Jordan wasn't good enough defensively; he won a DPOY and made the ALL-NBA First defensive team a number of times. They called him a choker; he did nothing but kick ass in all kinds of clutch moments and big games and is now considered the most clutch player ever. They said he couldn't play like a team player and win the big one; he won 5 MVPs and 6 les, and is inarguably the greatest player in NBA history.
6 rings, 5 MVPs, GOAT.
END OF THE ING DISCUSSION.
I'll take that in a guy who can be a head to his teammates at times, anyday over having a "good teammate" or "class citizen" that doesnt win any les, period.
I'm with stretch on this one..as any nba fan should be
Jordan was great, and its just ridiculous to rag on him and say he was a bad teammate
Im not sure what's going through ambchang's mind when hes saying all this..but ill give him a free pass its been a long offseason and maybe hes just bored out of his mind.
There are always two sides to the story. Jordan had a messy breakup with the Wizards because of control issues, and he wouldn't let go and let the young team developed. For the sake of satisfying Jordan's will to win immediately, the Wizards did not develop young players for two years.
And I would take this player too, so as long as you agree that he was as much of a jerk as Kobe. I couldn't understand how people can see me as disliking Jordan by refusing to acknowledge that he was perfect in everyway.
Magic is my #1 player of all time, but I am ready to say that his individual defense is not at an all-time great level, Robinson is my favourite player of all time, but would easily say that he had a poor post up game for a big man, so why can't I say Jordan wasn't a great teammate?
I am in fact bored out of my mind, can't wait till next week .....
Anyways, I just didn't like seeing how people have double standards for Kobe and Jordan for doing similar things to their teammates, but oh well.
I think they main difference is that Michaels actions spoke for themselves..regardless of anything else, but this isn't always the case with Kobe. When Jordan criticized his teammates, then goes out and busts his ass for them, people see that he is doing it for the better of the team and MJ got results. When Kobe criticizes teammates, especially around playoff time, it usually results in a frustration because the Lakers just aren't an elite team. Untill Kobe wins something without Shaq people are going to continue to criticize him, whether its right or wrong.
Not once did I disagree that he was a jerk, like Kobe.
But knocking on him, for not winning more than 6 les is in stupid. That was what I was debating the whole time.
As for Magic being your #1 guy... I would like to see how you defend that. So without further ado... how is Magic Johnson the greatest player in NBA history in your book?
Couldn't have said it better myself. Michael always backed up anything he did and said. On the other hand, Kobe gave up on his team when they were in a position to pull off a huge upset.
I would have to say Jordan, because the records and hardware back it up, however, Magic is definately in the conversation. He is the only "great" player that was truly able to play all 5 spots on the floor, and he played them all well. Magic's court vision and playmaking ability are far superior to Jordan's. Jordan won the most rings with the least help though. Jordan's shooting and his D were better than Magic's. Magic had so many good players around him......
Jordan was great but selfish, cynical and over-hyped in a crazy 90s. 90% of the fans were kids in that generation and MJ now compared to then isn't as amazing or whatever after his comeback stints and draft adding to the poverty of people bringing his airness up again. It got old a few years ago.
He played how he wanted and either you jumped on his back or got on, pretty much.
I don't think knocked him for not winning more than 6 les, it could have been another person.
As for Magic being the #1 guy, it would be a very difficult argument based on his numbers, because he wasn't a particularly impressive scorer, he's "only" #2 in career assists, despite being known as the best passer in the history of the league, his individual defense is around average, but the following things are what stood out to me:
1) He changed the game - The 70s was the dark ages for basketball as players were mired in drug abuse and suffering terrible image problems. Individual plays have taken over the team concept, and teams just generally sucked. Entered Magic and Bird, and the whole landscape changed because they brought the team concept back to sports.
2) Leadership - Not many people can have the greatest center of all time willingly concede their leadership role on a 3-time NBA champion, but Magic did that with a grumpy center to boast, and won 2 more les after wards.
3) Making his teammates better - Worthy had a 10% drop in FG% (or something like that) the year Magic retired, Kareem prolonged his career, he made Byron Scott near all-star, and integrated Vlade Divac right out of Europe, then there are the Coopers, the Wilkes and the Norm Nixons who undoubtedly had better stats with than without Magic. In all, Magic orchestrated the best offense in the history of the league to perfection.
4) 5 champsionships in arguably the toughest era in basketball, made the NBA finals 9 times in 12 years. And he beat some of the best teams in the league's history (76ers and Celtics).
5) Stats - yes, it wasn't as eye-popping as those of Wilt, Jordan, or even Bird, but he is the closest to averaging a triple-double for a whole season since the Big O, he is as versatile as a player could possibly be.
How is complaining that he could have won more les not knocking him?
Here is my argument for Jordan. Everything that Magic accomplished, Jordan surpassed, except for his passing stats and abilities (which Jordan was also an incredible passer, but was a scorer first, but his passing abilities could have allowed him to easily average 10 APG... then again, he didn't have James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to throw passes to... he had Bill Cartwright, Scottie Pippen, and John Paxson... LOL)
Magic got 5 les. Jordan got 6.
Magic got 3 Finals MVPS. Jordan got 6.
Magic went to 12 All-Star games. Jordan went to 14.
Magic got 3 MVPs. Jordan got 5.
Magic got 1 Olympic Gold Medal. Jordan got 2.
Magic was a 9-Time ALL-NBA first teamer. Jordan was a 10-time ALL-NBA first teamer.
Jordan led his team to a perfect record in Finals appearances. Magic did not.
Jordan won 10 scoring les. Magic won none.
Jordan was a regular on the ALL-NBA defensive first team (9 times). Magic I don't believe made it once.
Magic may have played in an era with some great teams (Celtics, 76ers, Pistons), but Jordan played in a more balanced era, with a FAR less talented team. Not to mention, defense was actually a staple in the NBA in the era that Michael was winning in. There was a very minimal amount of defense played in Magic's era. And the 90's had some very good teams. There weren't quite as many teams with losing records making the playoffs as well, as the talent was more balanced, thus making it more difficult to have those 60+ win seasons, as opposed to the 80s, when there were 4 or 5 good teams, then everyone else pretty much sucked, because all the best players were on those great teams. But just because most teams in the 90s didnt win les (due to the absolute dominance of Jordan), doesn't mean they werent good teams. The Suns had a VERY good team. The Jazz were a damn good team as well. Don't forget the Sonics, Rockets, Knicks, Pacers, Magic... there were plenty of solid teams in the 90's as well, and plenty of compe ion that Jordan had to deal with as well.
Sorry, but when you look at the entire picture, I really don't see how you can even think about saying Magic was the best player in NBA history. I used to think it was somewhat debatable, but after looking deeper into everything... about the only things that he beat Jordan out in was having better court vision, better assist numbers, and having a big body that allowed him to play bigger positions (which would NOT have worked in the 90s or today, because people actually have to play defense in this era). He would get absolutely manhandled by guys like Duncan, Garnett, Yao, Dirk, and Amare.
I hate saying it, because I loved Magic, and he was always one of my favorite players of all time, and I honestly think that he is still a top 5 player of all time, but he is also overrated by many as well, including yourself.
Michael Jordan said he would get the Wizards in the playoffs in the first season he played with them. He said they'd contend for a le in his second season with them.
Watch how you use absolutes like "always."
Don't pull that crap, hater. You know damn well what I meant.
or as the Sgt. Dignam Troll would probably say to Jamstone...
"Oh, you're a in genius. Who forged your transcript, head?"
He's not overrated. How does what I said equate to me saying he's overrated?
He was one of the greatest winners in the history of the NBA, and he's one of the best players ever to play the game.
The guy was not perfect. I don't discredit his achievements at all. He was one of the greatest ever, probably the greatest.
He was also an egomaniac, a degenerate gambler, an incessant adulterer, and a bad teammate. Just because he was those things, it doesn't mean he wasn't one of the greatest basketball players ever. It just means he was those things as well.
I used to think that Magic was the best until Jordan finshed up. My argument for Magic was that during his career he could have been a legit all-star at all five positions. Jordan was awesome and could have dominated the 1,2 and 3 and maybe even the 4 but could not have survived the 5 spot in the era he played. By the time Jordan was done with the Bulls, I changed my mind about who was the best ever. IMO, the best player because I never saw any one player will a victory for his team like Jordan did.
Just my .02. Not wrong, not right...just one person's view. My personal opinion and not a suggested course of action.
BTW, I also disagree about Robinson's post game but that is for another thread.
I meant I don't think I said he could have won more les, I think it was another person.
I certainly couldn't say that Magic was definitely better than Jordan, but I would like to point out that a lot of your statistics were in Jordan's favour because:
1) Magic had better compe ion than Jordan. Celtics, 6ers and Pistons, even Rockets, were definitely better compe ion than the Knicks, Pacers, Portland and Suns.
2) Jordan simply played longer. If Magic played for a longer time, he too would have more All-NBA first teams, All-Star games. Not including their respective ill-advised comebacks, Jordan played one more season (explaining the All-star and All-NBA)
3) Magic is one of the rare players who could simply take over the game without scoring a point, he is like Kidd, only much much better. He made the whole Lakers more dangerous.
But overall, no question than defense was more established since the days of hte bad boys, and that Jordan was simply a more dominant individual. It ultimately goes to Magic maximizing the talents of those around him.
Magic also had a loaded roster against other teams with loaded rosters. Jordan went against teams with very, very good rosters, with a very average roster. And don't forget, that Jordan actually had some of his best statistical years during the same era that Magic played... and that was before he even hit his prime. So that era crap is bogus. Not to mention... again... Jordan played in an era where there is FAR more defense played, as opposed to the 80s, in which there was minimal defense played.
Jordan also had a season where he was hurt, and only started like 7 games. Take that one away, and Jordan has only 11 true seasons. But the only seasons I will take away for statistical sake for Jordan, are the injury year, and the 95 comeback. I still credit the Wizard's seasons to him, even though they were well past his prime. The only year I take away for Magic is the 1996 comeback. So really yes, Jordan still played one more year, although those two years were one of those "ill-advised comebacks." But in that comeback, he was still an all-star caliber player, despite how old he was, and being retired for several years. Magic's comeback was a complete faliure on the other hand.
Again, let's see how easy it is for Magic to take over a game without scoring much, with teammates like Will Perdue, Craig Hodges, and John Paxson. Suddenly, he's going to be forced to score, isnt he? I guarantee that if Jordan had guys like Kareem, Cooper, and Worthy, he could have done just as good of a job. And he maximizes talents of those around him in different ways. Magic did it by great ball distribution, and smarts. Jordan did it by his mere presence, drawing double and triple teams to free his teammates up for much easier shots. Unfortunately, they would miss half the shots, or drop the amazing no-look passes that he would give them, and all his efforts up. Again, its MUCH EASIER to make players with talent look good, as opposed to players with no talent look good.
I wouldn't call Jordan's le team having a very average roster. Pippen is one of the best SF of all-time (best perimeter defender IMO, better than Bowen and Cooper), Grant is an all-star caliber PF (so was Rodman in the 2nd 3-peat), Cartwright was a fantastic low-post defender. He was way past his prime, but he still had that sweeping awkward (but unblockable) jumpshot, and there were those sharp shooters. It wasn't close to the Magic teams in terms of talent, but it's not just very average.
When Jordan played with a less defensively oriented league, he averaged more points, but when Magic played in a more defensive-oriented league (late 89 to 91), he still put up similar stats.
Magic also had an injury year, I think he played like 35 or 37 games that year. And Magic's comeback was decent, he played PF, and was only forced to retire because the 12-year-old-impregnating Karl Malone was complaining about AIDS after a cut by Magic.
I would agree that Magic definitely benefited by having great teammates, but he was doing exactly the same in Michigan, and in 90 and 91, when the Lakers were notably less talented, he still led the team to great post-season success, including a finals appearance in 91 vs. Jordan.
There is just no way you can argue Jordan could make his teammates better than Magic could. BTW, Magic could score, he usually scores when his team struggles. He may not be able to average 37 like Jordan, but he could average 25 a game.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions