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I think it has to be officially declared abandoned, or meet some specific critera that make it abandoned. Maybe someone else is more versed in maritime law.
Manny, I'm not yet convicting Bush (and I'm not a Bush hater). I'm sharing what I heard from a very desperate sounding rescue worker. From his perspective, it seems that they are not getting what they need from the feds. I don't know if that's accurate or not. Do any of us really know if our government is responding adequately? Maybe they are... but maybe they aren't. If they aren't, that is not acceptable.
I think it has to be officially declared abandoned, or meet some specific critera that make it abandoned. Maybe someone else is more versed in maritime law.
and if you ask me I'm the most reasonable, level-headed person on this board.
I have no doubt the federal government including one W is responding as best it can.
Some information from Jeff Masters:
And just a reminder that hurricane season still has 2 solid months left to go....Why did the New Orleans flood walls fail?
The 325-mile long series of flood walls and levees surrounding New Orleans were engineered to withstand the storm surge from a Category 3 hurricane. No Category 3 or higher hurricane has hit New Orleans in the past 150 years, a strange quirk one would not expect based on the pattern of hurricane strikes elsewhere along the Gulf Coast. New Orleans should get a Category 3 hurricane passing within 80 miles every 32 years, a Category 4 hurricane every 70 years, and a Category 5 hurricane every 180 years. However, the strongest hurricanes ever to hit the city were two Category 2 hurricanes--a 1893 hurricane that killed 2000, and Hurricane Betsy of 1965, which killed 75 and put parts of the city under 8 feet of water. Hurricane Camille, although it was a Category 5 hurricane and took almost the same track as Katrina, was a very small hurricane with hurricane force winds extending out only about 50 miles from the center. Camille brought 100 mph gusts to the eastern side of New Orleans. Katrina was a huge storm whose hurricane force winds extended a full 110 miles from the center, and probably brought 130 mph wind gusts to the same area. Katrina piled up a much larger storm surge wave onto the flood walls than Camille. According to the Army Corps of Engineers, "What failed were actually floodwalls, not levees. This was caused by overtopping which caused scouring, or an eating away of the earthen support, which then basically undermined the wall. These walls and levees were designed to withstand a fast moving category 3 hurricane. Katrina was a strong 4 at landfall, and conditions exceeded the design."
Now, this is just going to show how much forcasting has come with the new computer models we are using. It's pretty awesome.The tropics today
The most significant threat in the tropics I can see is the potential this weekend for a tropical depression to develop in the coastal waters surrounding Florida. This is the same location that Katrina developed. However, this time the development might come at the tail end of a cold front that is expected to push off of the East Coast, instead of from a tropical wave.
That is the 12 day model projection for August 19. In other words, what today looks like. The prediction on the map is 3 tropical cyclones out in the mid atlantic.
Here is what is out there right now:
I really hate to imagine another hurricane hitting the same area before the season is over, but it is quite possible.Tropical Depression 13 is nothing to worry about, as it is over the open Atlantic Ocean and heading out to sea. The well-organized wave 1300 miles east of the Lesser Antilles will probably become Tropical Depression 14 in the next day or two, but it is probably too far north to threaten any land areas. This system will probably recurve out to sea. The tropical wave that pushed off of the coast of Africa yesterday and is now south of the Cape Verdes Islands has some potential for development later in the week, and the GFS model projects that this wave will become a hurricane and a potential threat to the Leeward Islands a week or so from now.
As you recall, mid-August was a time of relative quiet in the tropics, but the GFS model was calling for an end to this quiet period. The 12-day GFS forecast called for 3 tropical cyclones for August 31. Well, the GFS was correct in calling for an end to the quiet period! While there is only one tropical cyclone (TD 13) out there, the other two strong tropical waves seen in the satellite image above certainly have the potential to become tropical depressions over the next few days. The GFS did miss the formation of Katrina, but the general 12 day forecast showing a big increase in hurricane activity was pretty accurate.
Even a heavy storm would exponentially worse than normal at this point.
Hope they don't get all the hurricanes in a row that Florida got.
You have no doubt that the federal government is responding as best they can but have every doubt that the ACoE is responding as best they can?
(I'm guessing you're one of the posters who have been calling them a bunch of idiots...too lazy to check...apologies if that wasn't you)
This is Steve Gregory's last email. He's a meteorologist, but he does a lot of work with the private energy sector in regards to forcasts so he's talking about things he knows
MAJOR events and actions being taken by the U.S.GOV'T today - have enabled energy markets to tumble.
A News Conference of unprecedented proportions by virtually every major branch of Gov't -- from the Secretary of Transportation, Director of the CDC, the Pentagon, Cabinet members and the list goes on, has just concluded. All came together to insure the Country that the response to this unprecedented catastrophe is being addressed aggressively.
Until about 9AM - energy markets were rising on the continual stream of bad news regarding real shortage and infrastructure issues. The reversal came sharply and intensely starting with the official release of the SPR, comments by OPEC to help in every way they can, the FED remaining cautiously optimistic that the economy is strong, but does stand ready to take whatever actions are needed to insure stability (aka lower rates), and then the above News conference.
All of this resulted in a huge sell-off in every energy market except gasoline. Gasoline is truly in short supply given the lack of refinery production that will last for a month at least. Some of the very people reassuring Americans that everything is 'under control' etc -- also mentioned that it might be a good idea to stay home this Labor day weekend and have a BBQ versus driving a long distance for the holiday weekend. So from 10AM until about 20 minutes ago oil had tumbled from$71.70 down to $67.80 - a $4 move in 3 hours. But in the final 20 minutes of trade, prices across the entire energy complex has begun to recover, with oil just over $69.
Natural gas prices that hit $12.30/bcf, fell to $11.20 before recovering to $11.50
This remains a VERY emotionally driven market complex -- but the fundamentals tell the truth. There is a major shortage developing in certain product categories, and the cost of dealing with it will be phenomenal. It goes beyond the estimated $30bil it will take to cleanup the damage caused by Katrina -- but there still some very big unknowns in certain areas regarding how much permanent damage has been done to some platforms and pipelines -- and how long it will take to restore power to many areas. Estimates of 2-6 weeks are being made -- that's quite a range. And several refineries remain under water -- so it is not a stretch to think we are looking at a major reduction in oil and gas production will exist for the next 45-60 days.
There could be a permanent loss of several bcf of NG per day for the next 6 months, and probably a 5% reduction in total domestic oil production for the next 4-12 months on average. There is no way to fill the gap for NG gas via imports, but all other refined products can be imported. The real question is, at what price? It costs extra money to bring in products and oil from the other side of the world versus producing it in your own backyard. And it is not as if the world has plenty of extra oil and refined products to go around to whoever needs it.
One final comment regarding the release of oil from the SPR -- what didn't get broadcast to the world -- but is in fact the true story -- is that they will allow oil companies to 'borrow oil from the SPR, and then pay it back with 'interest' when things stabilize'. Pay me now, or pay me later -- we didn't just find cheap or 'extra' oil.
Below a few comments on the overall economic impact as seen by the DJ Editor
Steve
these poor people.
Finally got a truck getting them some water.
Some people like Jelly gotta understand.
This is an ENORMUS situation.
You can plan and plan and plan.
But like the old saying goes
it never prepares you for the real thing.
Communication is REALLY difficult.
Shepard Smith right now, telling a state trooper, "You need to come to 235 exit and HELP these people"
Shep Smith is the best...
[QUOTE=T Park]these poor people.
Finally got a truck getting them some water.
Some people like Jelly gotta understand.
This is an ENORMUS situation.
You can plan and plan and plan.
QUOTE]
You guys are totally misunderstanding my posts. I give up....
I'm one. I've had my own personal beefs with the COE. They are kneejerk idiots.(I'm guessing you're one of the posters who have been calling them a bunch of idiots...too lazy to check...apologies if that wasn't you)
T Park,
apply that comment to the group of posters ing about what a bunch of incompetent fools the Army Corps of Engineers are and critisizing their every move.
Manny, what you put in bold isn't exactly true, I read about the repayment deal on CNN Money this morning.
And I still don't understand why the release of the SPR would make any difference. Before Katrina we were at close to peak refining production and now with some refineries out of service, what is going to be done with the oil if there is no where to refine it?
My waves I was talking about yesterday to you, still look pretty. Hmm, the NHC said that the wave off the Lesser Antilles could possibly be upgraded to TD 14 as soon as later today...but both Steve Gregory and Jeff Masters have said one or two more days off an on...guess we'll find out. At least they forecast one of them building up into a hurricane...sucks that it will threaten land but I'd still like to see it develop.
EOC conference room broadcast talking about the nine hospitals running out of fuel for the emergency generators, no power, no plumbing, and waiting for evacuation.
Those hospital workers are amazing. My hat's off to 'em.
Those stupid V22 Osprey.... we have like 7 of them parked in Corpus but they can't land ... or because they are in testing..
I say we use them....
If we had used the money on new CH47's instead they could land or hover to rescue... waste of money.
Is that guy on WWL using Google Earth?
Well, we've lost more production than refining if I understand correctly. So they can offset the production losses for now.
Yeah, the one farthest to the east is the one that I'm worried about. That one could come up through the carribean and with the ridge across Texas not being what it was a few weeks ago, all bets are off.
But thats still way off in the future. Weeks at the least.
i still do.
I think Cosmic and I both called this a few pages back.According to the Army Corps of Engineers, "What failed were actually floodwalls, not levees. This was caused by overtopping which caused scouring, or an eating away of the earthen support, which then basically undermined the wall. These walls and levees were designed to withstand a fast moving category 3 hurricane. Katrina was a strong 4 at landfall, and conditions exceeded the design."
That earthen area behind the levies got washed out, and when it did they had no backing to support the walls against the water.
Game over.
Here's what I don't understand. A news chopper took this pic. Take five minutes out of your day taking photos, come in, hover a little bit above the roof (like a foot) and pick them up and give them a lift to the emergency center.
Personally I think all the news chopper pilots should be helping pluck people from roofs instead of just flying around taking photos.
I agree 100% Aggie.
Id much rather see pictures of an empty town due to everyone being saved, than pics of people saying HELP US
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