Forget intangibles. Pure skillsdet/talent/bball ability - Tim or David?

[SnakeBoy]

TD gets the edge in skill
DRob not quite the skill of TD but he was a far better athlete

Agreed but DRob was very skilled as well.

It's BS to say DRob couldn't get it done, TD couldn't have gotten it done with the teams DRob had to carry before TD's arrival. Ninja was the only solid talent DRob had around him consistently for the pre Duncan era.

[Quasar]

TD is a winner. He's done it 5 times. He led that 2003 team of dubious talent to a le. David didn't / couldn't . Forget all that. Who's the better basketball player, in the purest sense?

From whottt with love (2009 thread: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134772)

Crock of ...the 2003 team was the best Spurs Team of them all (NDLR: until 2009), are you ing kidding me?
3 Hall of Famers
3 Olympic Championships
About 20 All NBA Teams
About 18 All NBA Defensive Teams
Best 3 point shooter in NBA history, single season, and a carreer.
About 6 NBA 3 point shooting les.
3 or 4 rebounding les.
Blocked Shots le.
Scoring le.
Olympic MVP
Finals MVP

And none of those are including Tim Duncan.

I can't believe you guys think Duncan didn't have help on that team. That was one of the best basketball teams ever assembled.

It is the only basketball team in history to defeat a 3 time defending champion with it's core intact(meaning it's superstars were healthy).

It is the only team in NBA history to do that...and that doesn't even include the 60 win team they beat(that they haven't beat since), or the returning conference finalist.

You guys are morons if you think that was a scrub team...David Robinson right now would be better than any guy to line up at C since...and don't say he wasn't servicable, non-servicable players aren't the guys being asked to defend Shaq and actually left in by Pop to do it, and holding him scoreless when they are guy defending him in at least one of those games.

And I can't believe Spur fans on David Robinson...

More importantly, what I am saying is the truth, and what they are saying is not. I am not speaking from ignorance and lack of insight, and they are.

They start it, they start the ugliness...they start the Spur on Spur violence.

Don't whine like a just because I can get uglier...

Anytime David Robinson is belittled to make Duncan look better I am going to stick it up their ass until they ing bleed.

And I will outdo them in visciousness, ugliness and tyness every ing time.

So you guys either stop being stupid enough to insinuate David Robinson was in any way the reason we didn't win championships, in a stupid effort to get Duncan credit he already gets...or else it's ugliness.

Don't say David Robinson was the reason the Spurs didn't win a championship, don't even ing think it. Idiots.

You guys OTOH are saying David Robinson wasn't good enough to do it with a team capable of doing it.

And that is absolutely not the truth whatsoever. David Robinson was good enough to win a championship, from the very day he stepped on the court, to the day he walked off of it. And not a single time that they failed to do so, was it ever his fault.

It makes total sense to me...I am a misanthropic individual pretty much at odds with the world and the mindless stupidity of human beings, I just need a deserving outlet...and idiots serve that purpose. If you guys are going to be bunch of stupid ing morons that crap on the guy that saved the franchise, something Duncan probably would not have done had the situation been reversed....you aren't much of a Spurfan.

I know what a lot of people say...a lot of people also used to say the earth was flat.

I don't care if you guys think Duncan is better than Drob, I do not care if you guys think he is the greatest player ever....

But when you say David Robinson couldn't get it done...you are being a head and a ing moron. And he did get it done, he did everything in his power, even taking a role beyond the notice of idiots, just like he promised he would when he signed his contract with SA.

[barbacoataco]

Right on! Robinson was a beast. He had the fastest full court speed on the team of any player at any position. You're talking about a guy who lead the league in scoring while also being one of the best defensive players of all time. Look at his block totals. Of course he was good enough to lead a team to a championship.

[Russ]

McHale and Parish were along for the ride, Bird was the Celtics.

That reminds me of the story of the wise old sportswriter in Boston commenting to his friend as the Celtics starters are introduced one by one.

"Nice player, but I'm not sure you can win with him . . ."

"Nice player, but . . ."

"Nice player, but . . ."

Finally, Bird is introduced and the guy turns to the sportswriter, "So what're you gonna say about him?"

The sportswriter just looks at Bird and nods his head, "Now that's one uva team."

[CGD]

This is pretty easily Duncan. Robinson never had Duncan's ability to score in the post, he was never the passer out of the post Duncan is either. Robinson had a better face up game due to him being a lot quicker and his jumper was far superior, but if I'm down one with 10 seconds left I'm giving the ball to Duncan since I can trust him a lot more to either score or make the right pass from the low post.

[baseline bum]

That reminds me of the story of the wise old sportswriter in Boston commenting to his friend as the Celtics starters are introduced one by one.

"Nice player, but I'm not sure you can win with him . . ."

"Nice player, but . . ."

"Nice player, but . . ."

Finally, Bird is introduced and the guy turns to the sportswriter, "So what're you gonna say about him?"

The sportswriter just looks at Bird and nods his head, "Now that's one uva team."

Haha, I can't believe how far the games of McHale and Parish have been amplified over time while everyone has forgotten how amazing Bird was, like Bird-McHale was 2001 Shaq-Kobe. , it wasn't even Jordan-Pippen. Damn if Bird hadn't put in that stupid driveway at his house in the 1983 offseason that destroyed his back for the rest of his career.

[Quasar]

I don't see any teams that any other bigman would have won a le with that David played on, because the outside shooting and perimeter game wasn't good enough.

Just because I'm being vulgar doesn't mean I'm belittling Duncan. He wasn't good enough to get it done by himself...neither was David, neither was any other player in NBA history. The POV that it is otherwise is both ed and wrong.

So what you are saying is because Duncan had a team that could win a game where he scored 5 points means he is better because David played on teams that couldn't win games when he scored 30 points?

Hey ing idiot...

Avery Johnson made 1 playoff 3 pointer in 19 ing years, that was an extra defender he had to contend with...that was John Stockton, being free to elbow him in the balls in every series they ever played.

You show me...one other player since the merger, that carried a team to the playoffs, much less to the conference finals, that David Robinson wasn't on...that had a PG that made 1 ing playoff 3 pointer in a 19 year career.

To put this in perspective...in Tony Parker's first game as a 19 year old rookie, against a HOF point guard, named the Glove, he tripled the figure Avery Johnson put up in his entire career.

Let me spell it out for you one more time

AJ in 19 years, in 90 playoffs games:

1-26 3pm-3pa

Tony Parker in his first playoff game, against Gary ing Payton, at the age of 19

1 game: 3-3 3pm-3pa

And Tony's not even supposed to be able to shoot.

You guys that make these arguments are just too ing stupid to understand what a double team is, what enables them to be done to players, and what it takes to beat them.

When Jaren Jackson nuked the Lakers? Was because Tim Duncan was feeling it that season.

That 19 points in a quarter and OT against Detroit in game 5 of the NBA finals by Robert Horry?

Duncan
Feeling
It
100%.

Steve Kerr? Mavs?

Duncan feeling it. The reason Kerr was in the game was not because no one else could hit a shot, it was because Duncan wasn't feeling it. Kerr was put into the game so Duncan would again, feel it.

Stephen Jackson bombing all those shots in the 2003 run?

Yeap. Duncan, feeling it.

S'really what it's all about. Duncan either feels it or he doesn't.

Olympics, with LeBron and Wade and AI and Kidd, gainst Manu?

Not feeling it. Not that year. Spent the off season practicing with the Olympic Squad, gave up his summer.... ed himself up for the following season, being humiliated on a world stage, and trashed(along with the Dream Team) by his fellow citizen, just because it seemed like it would be fun. He did not want to win Olympic Gold that year....

Because...
He
Did
Not
Feel
It

then.

[Quasar]

Duncan defense

Uh...[NDLR: as of 2009] Dirk's gotten (Duncan) twice now. Karl Malone got him twice.

Amare Stoudemire dropped nearly 40 point a game on Duncan a couple of years ago.

At least David didn't get butt ed by Dirk Nowitski and have his 2 guard draw the assignment of defending him, as the guy on his team.

I know I know...it's different then.

Go ahead...blame Manu, I ing dare you.

Idiots.

If Duncan is such a great Shaq defender, then what happened in 2004? We still had Kevin Willis and Malik Rose you know...

Why don't you look and see what Shaq did to us in 2004 VS every other time we played him in the playoffs ever, with David.

Shaq was held to his playoff lows for that season every single time he was guarded by David Robinson...and he destroyed our frontline the year after David left.

And finally, I didn't say David was still the David of old in that series. And yes his medical problems were that bad...he often was left without any feelings in his legs.

Nontheless David on his last legs in the NBA against Shaq in his prime was a better Shaq defender than Duncan was on his best day in his prime.

And one other thing...Shaq didn't score a point from the field with David on him in game 1 of that series.

You come off like a ing idiot saying at least Duncan wasn't owned by Karl Malone, considering Duncan never beat him in the playoffs.

Duncan is 0-2 against Karl Malone. Including 0-1 as a defending champ.

And don't you dare bring up teamates...because that was the year David Robinson left. And Duncan had a proven championship side kick playing along side.

Furthermore, Duncan has not beaten Dirk Nowiski in the post since David Robinson retired (NDLR - as of 2009).

Duncan cannot guard Amare Stoudemire or Dirk Nowtiski and you think he was going to shut ihng Hakeem Olajuwon down?

You are the stupidest ing idiot I haver ever met in my life.

No no no...you go youself. Teamates don't matter remember?

And you consider Manu Ginobili a liability and valid reason for not winning, when he ing beat Duncan and a team of All Stars in the Olympics? But not Avery Johnson and Vinney Del Negro.

You stupid, ignorant mother er.

Actually you chicken piece of ...the reason you get so much hostility is because you act like David had everything he needed to win a championship yet immediately go the teamates card when you get your own ignorance stuck up your ass.

You're a ing idiot, and you bring down the intelligence level of the board.

Even worse, you throw David Robinson under a bus, just make Duncan look better, which is something he doesn't even needl, which makes you not only an idiot, but a piece of as well.

FOAD. Your take is a dime a dozen, it's stupid, you contradict yourserlf immediately when presented with even a rudimentary counterpoint, and you are too ing stupud to even realize it.

Furthermore, you consider Manu Ginobili a reason the Spurs didn't win and David Robinson a reason Vinny Del Negro didn't win.

You don't know shiit. You are a ing moron.

[bic50]

Yes, nobody would argue otherwise.



They needed those players to win, not to perform well. People, like yourself, use David's underwhelming teammates for his poor play (relative to his Regular Seasons) in the 94 and 96 Jazz series', his inability to beat a team than won 11 less games than him in 91, and a bunch of his awful end-of-season games. In most of these series he was being defended by bums like Tom Chambers, Oliver Miller, Jim Peterson, Andrew Lang. He wasn't going up against Shaq, Ewing, Zo, Daugherty in his prime. When he did go up against Hakeem he got slaughtered.

OTOH, when Duncan went up against LA in 02 with an ty, old, injured Robinson and a bunch of scrubs, he still managed to put up a 29/17/5 series, because his teammates didn't dictate his play, merely the outcome of the series (wins and losses).

That's my point: teammates help you win; they don't help you perform, and it's common knowledge that Duncan performed better in the Playoffs than Robinson. Not because of his help, but because of his ability.

One more thing: Duncan won in 03 without another All-Star. let alone another HoF-worthy player. Parker and Manu weren't effective players yet, and Robinson was on his last legs. So no, you don't always need HoFers to win. Duncan didn't, Hakeem didn't. And guess what? Both those guys were dominant low-post players who are better than the David Robinson's, the Kevin Garnett's, the Karl Malone's.

"That's my point: teammates help you win; they don't help you perform" You cant perform when the opposition does not respect your supporting crew, that's why Drob constantly was double even triple teamed, they had no fear of his teammates to step up and help him out and they didnt. Double hakeem his supporting cast would make you pay big time, kept the defense honest leaving room for hakeem to work, witnessed this a bunch during their championship runs, elie, maxwell, k.smith, where horry started to develop his clutch reputation, clyde drexler was no joke either and is a hall of famer. We've seen Parker, Manu not only hit big shots but show the ability to take over games, drop 20,30,40 points on the opposition. David never that kind of help, he was everything for that team, they depended on him so much that in times of need had no idea what to do or didn't have the ability to do what was needed.

[Quasar]

The only thing I'm saying about Duncan is that he didn't do it by himself, and giving examples....oh how mean can I be?

Meanwhile you guys are saying David couldn't get it done on a team capable of it, as if he was somehow part of the problem...the only one belittling anyone is you.

That first year Hakeem won a le...he played for a team that set the NBA single season record for 3 pointers made.

It mattered...it wasn't just that Hakeem felt like stepping up.

Dip s, why don't ya'll go look at the numbers David put up in the post seasion, when he had PG's that had some semblance of a perimeter threat..

And by the way...David Robinson was never swept in a series in his prime. That is not true of Hakeem, or Duncan, or Shaq, or Kareem, or Wilt.

And with the exception of the loss to GS, the teams David lost to were either teams that would at some point make the finals, to lose to perenneial champions like the Pistons or Bulls, and featured multiple HOF'ers on them, or at some point won a championship.

[Quasar]

When doing this comparison, there are other factors...

Would Tim Duncan have even signed with the Spurs? It's debatable.

One thing is not...if Tim Duncan had signed with the Spurs, they would have surrounded him with better talent than they did Drob...because Duncan would have made them or else he would have walked. I mean Duncan almost walked away from a Spurs team that had won a championship. David never even came close to walking untill the end of his career and his motivations for walking were entirely different than Duncan's.

David didn't put that same kind of pressure to win on the Spurs. He looked at it as his job and his job alone to win the Spurs a le. He wasn't going to ask them to give him help. And IMO the Spurs took advantage of that aspect of David and didn't do everything they could have done to build a winner around him. Duncan wasn't going to play that game with the Spurs and he made that clear right off the bat...and it's probably the #1 reason the Spurs have 4 championships now more than anything Robinson or Duncan ever did on the court.

if young David Robinson had old Tim Duncan as a teamate...how would things have turned out then?

[Quasar]

Wow so many posts in one day... rare for me

I don't agree with everything Whottt says or the way he said it, but I just thought he would have been all over this thread if he were still here.

His posts were always entertaining and backed by facts plus some good old fanboyism.

[Quasar]

Couchman - I like it - rational argument based on facts and a conclusion, but I disagree Teams collapsed on David the way they can't on Duncan. You rarely see Duncan triple-teamed because the Spurs have too many weapons. Remember the playoffs when David was injured? See my earlier Whottt posts

David destroyed Duncan in 1 vs 1 in practice circa 98/99. Even in prime vs prime, I believe David would beaten Duncan any day thanks to his superior physical abilities and skill set, including his jump-shooting ability.

However in a playoff series with teams of equal ability (e.g. with Parker, Manu, Kawhi, Boris) and swapping Duncan for David, I'd say David beats Duncan 4-3.

Witness how Duncan was beaten by Dirk/Shaq/Amare/ZBo - imagine all those players rolled into one and you'd get David in his prime.

We are so lucky as Spurs fans to be able to have this conversation. I was there in person for DRob's 1st game ever against the Lakers and rooted my heart out for him his entire career. David Robinson was one of the most elite athletes to ever walk the earth, and he used that ability to be one of the greatest basketball players of all time, and yet he was fairly limited in terms of the offensive basketball skills that matter for a big man. The comparison between TD and DR is close, but for me it is decided by this factor. Robinson did not have a consistent and dependable set of post moves which kept him from being a dependable "go to" option in crunch time. That was during an era of basketball where that skillset was more important than it is now.
By contrast, Tim Duncan is an elite athlete, but not an all time great athelete like Robinson was. What TD immediately brought to San Antonio was a mastery of historically proven "Big Man" skills. Tim ALWAYS held the ball up high and avoided having the ball stripped or fumbling the ball as Robinson often did. TD had an array of post moves, most of which resulted in easy buckets or soft misses off the rim that were prime for put backs. Because of his superior post play Duncan also could generate offense better by passing out of the post. This was the foundation of an offense that allowed lesser role players to thrive. Guys like Antonio Daniels, Derek Anderson, Devin Brown, etc etc and the list goes on.
One final factor is that TD is a brutally fierce compe or while DRob was the ultimate gentleman. I think TDs compe ive fire is a significant advantage for him and his teams that helped not only fire him up but also keep his m in line.
My vote goes to Duncan.

[bic50]

"And I can't believe Spur fans on David Robinson...

More importantly, what I am saying is the truth, and what they are saying is not. I am not speaking from ignorance and lack of insight, and they are.

They start it, they start the ugliness...they start the Spur on Spur violence.

Don't whine like a just because I can get uglier...

Anytime David Robinson is belittled to make Duncan look better I am going to stick it up their ass until they ing bleed.

"And I will outdo them in visciousness, ugliness and tyness every ing time.

So you guys either stop being stupid enough to insinuate David Robinson was in any way the reason we didn't win championships, in a stupid effort to get Duncan credit he already gets...or else it's ugliness.

Don't say David Robinson was the reason the Spurs didn't win a championship, don't even ing think it. Idiots."



This is great. It is indeed Sad "spurs fan" try an belittle Drob the way they do.

[Russ]

David didn't put that same kind of pressure to win on the Spurs. He looked at it as his job . . .

That hits it right on the head -- the difference between Tim and Dave.

Dave played basketball because he was good at it. He was given talent and he was going to use that talent. It would be a crime not to. People expected it and he wasn't going to let those people down. It was his job.

Almost no one on this Earth was more conscientious than David Robinson.

Duncan just played because he needed to win. It killed him to lose. Therefore he did everything to learn how to win -- he strategized about how to maximize what he had -- like developing the best footwork and post game around.

He couldn't give a damn about any job.

[Quasar]

Awesome post below Join'orDie - well thought out and well written!! No ragging, only respect! You only have 5 posts only???!?

David was not *just* a finesse player though, although he had the jump-shooting skills. He also had his famously violent tomahawk dunks. His rim defense, blocks, blocking out, and rebounding were legendary as well. Ibaka is not nearly the kind of player he was...

Anyone who goes toe to toe against Shaq and beats him is not *just* a finesse player. David beat Shaq consistently in head to head games where they were THE Man.



I am biased though - I became a Spurs fan because of who DRob was outside the court. I then found he was an awesome player.

Manu became my favourite after David left...

My favourite players are the Spurs fans love to rag on the most... so I thought I should be the contrarian here until I found your post

D-Rob, MJ, Shaq, Lebron, are the most talented players I've ever seen. These four had dominating physical gifts (that they sometimes relied too heavily on) combined with the skill to use those gifts. Tim is one of the most skilled players I've ever seen and a top 5 compe or as well; along with MJ, Bird, Kobe, Gino. To put it another way Tim is considered one of the best bigs to ever run the floor because Tim runs the floor hard every play not because he's particularly fast. D-Rob was one of the greatest big runners because he was the fastest guy on the court.

Robinson was hurt by the era he played. Dude was a finesse big in the time of smash-mouth. What Detroit did to Tim in '05 David had game in and game out. Admiral was at the top of the FTs attempted list year after year not because he flopped or tried to draw contact, but because teams would hammer him as this was the only viable defensive strategy. And because it was the 90s he probably didn't get to the line as much as he should have, flagrants weren't called enough, and every team had four or five goons to throw at him.

The other thing that hurts D-Rob is the talent and organization around him. In his first season, the Strickland pass year, Spurs only made like 50 threes and shot less than 25% on 3-point attempts. And yet the Spurs were one of the highest scoring teams in the league at the time largely thanks to Robinson. The 3-point situation never got a whole lot better, contrasted with Dream who was surrounded by great shooters, D-Rob never had a chance. Strickland, the best pg David played with, fueded publicly with the teams dumbass owner and left in free agency for nothing. Terry mings the best 4-man to play with David (before Tim) blew out his ACL in a pickup game in '92. Elliott was traded for Denis the Menace. The head coaches chair looked more like a revolving door with like 6 coaches in 8 years. And ownership was more interested in selling the team than actually putting a winning product on the floor.

All of this and the Spurs were still a top regular season team every year because of David. For this reason I think Admiral's leadership is also criminally underrated. Robinson's early years actually mirror Jordan's in a lot of ways; and just like MJ, D-Rob needed a Pippen. Except he never got a Pippen. Instead he got one of the 5 greatest to play the game. And because of age, injuries, and a willingness to put team before individual needs Robinson played Robin to Tim's Batman. But make no mistake, in his prime, the Admiral was one of the most incredible talents to ever touch a basketball.

[Quasar]

That hits it right on the head -- the difference between Tim and Dave.

Dave played basketball because he was good at it. He was given talent and he was going to use that talent. It would be a crime not to. People expected it and he wasn't going to let those people down. It was his job.

Almost no one on this Earth was more conscientious than David Robinson.

Whottt actually meant that David looked at it as HIS job to make the spurs win.

That is, he did not twist the hands of the front-office into making changes that would give the Spurs the best chance to win.

Remember that Duncan almost walked off...

[Russ]

Whottt actually meant that David looked at it as HIS job to make the spurs win.

That is, he did not twist the hands of the front-office into making changes that would give the Spurs the best chance to win.

Remember that Duncan almost walked off...

Duncan almost walked off because he only cared about winning (then realized the potential error).

But you're right, I just twisted the quote to suit my point . . .

[Quasar]

Right there with you Russ...

Don't you miss Whottt and his interminably long rants?

[baseline bum]

If David would of signed with the Lakers instead of Spurs, he would have won a le or two with Magic.

I still hope Rick Barry gets AIDS tbh

[Keepin' it real]

David was slightly more talented and better defensively.
Tim has been a considerably more reliable low-post scorer than David, which helped him enjoy better playoff success.

But since 2004, Tim has had sooo much better teammates than David ever did before Tim arrived.

I still remember driving to a Spurs game back in the day, only to hear on the radio that the Spurs decided at the last minute to let David sit out the game for injury reasons. Talk about devastating. David WAS the Spurs. If he wasn't playing, why even bother going to the game?

At least with Tim's teams, it's been entertaining to watch Tony and Manu propel the team to victories in Tim's absence. If only 5-0 could have had a Tony and Manu of his own ...

[barbacoataco]

No doubt Robinson was a better defender. With his size, speed, strength and being left handed, he was built to block shots. While Duncan has the better low post game, as an overall scorer Robinson was more prolific, had a great face/up game and better mid-range jump shot. He also went to the FT line a lot. Offensively Robinson had a game kind of like Amare, but he was bigger and faster. And he was a million times better than Amare on defense. Go back and read stories from the day and Robinson was clearly regarded higher while active than he is now 20 years later. I think mainly because of the 1995 Rockets series being blown out of proportion. But I'm not getting into that now.

[T_L_P]

"That's my point: teammates help you win; they don't help you perform" You cant perform when the opposition does not respect your supporting crew, that's why Drob constantly was double even triple teamed, they had no fear of his teammates to step up and help him out and they didnt. Double hakeem his supporting cast would make you pay big time, kept the defense honest leaving room for hakeem to work, witnessed this a bunch during their championship runs, elie, maxwell, k.smith, where horry started to develop his clutch reputation, clyde drexler was no joke either and is a hall of famer. We've seen Parker, Manu not only hit big shots but show the ability to take over games, drop 20,30,40 points on the opposition. David never that kind of help, he was everything for that team, they depended on him so much that in times of need had no idea what to do or didn't have the ability to do what was needed.

See, but Duncan was also routinely drawing double and triple teams. Against much better defenders than the ones who David went up against, and he played better.

Again, 02 Lakers series. Duncan had an injured Robinson (missed one game, sucked in the others), Bowen, Daniels, Parker, Rose, Smith and Porter. His teammates had TS%s of .519, .502, .476, .475, .434, and .273. The Lakers were doubling Duncan at the touch and he still put up a 29/17/5 series.

David, under similar cir stances, against the likes of Andrew Lang and Tom Chambers, put up 20/10/2.

Both lost the series, but one performed significantly better than the other, because one was the better player. The help had very little do with it.

[2centsworth]

See, but Duncan was also routinely drawing double and triple teams. Against much better defenders than the ones who David went up against, and he played better.

Again, 02 Lakers series. Duncan had an injured Robinson (missed one game, sucked in the others), Bowen, Daniels, Parker, Rose, Smith and Porter. His teammates had TS%s of .519, .502, .476, .475, .434, and .273. The Lakers were doubling Duncan at the touch and he still put up a 29/17/5 series.

David, under similar cir stances, against the likes of Andrew Lang and Tom Chambers, put up 20/10/2.

Both lost the series, but one performed significantly better than the other, because one was the better player. The help had very little do with it.

you're taking one series in isolation and forming a general opinion. Using the imperfect, but better measurement PER, Duncan is consistent at 24.5 during regular and post season, while David was at 26/23. I've seen Duncan the bed in a series or two, but that doesn't define his career.


What I will say is that David never reached his full potential, which I mainly blame on the organization. David was not a gym rat, but a more naturally gifted athlete than Tim. David with Pop and this current generation of Spurs would have been amazing to see.

[Join'orDie]

See, but Duncan was also routinely drawing double and triple teams. Against much better defenders than the ones who David went up against, and he played better.

Again, 02 Lakers series. Duncan had an injured Robinson (missed one game, sucked in the others), Bowen, Daniels, Parker, Rose, Smith and Porter. His teammates had TS%s of .519, .502, .476, .475, .434, and .273. The Lakers were doubling Duncan at the touch and he still put up a 29/17/5 series.

David, under similar cir stances, against the likes of Andrew Lang and Tom Chambers, put up 20/10/2.

Both lost the series, but one performed significantly better than the other, because one was the better player. The help had very little do with it.

Really you're going to grab some random series and compare them? Fine then so will I. At age 34 both Robinson and Duncan played on teams where the best players were injured. In the 2000 playoffs Duncan was out as the 4 seed Spurs played the 5 seed Suns. In 2011, Ginobili played with a broken arm, as the 1 seed Spurs played the 8 seed Grizzlies. Both teams would lose in the first round 4-2 in '11 and 3-1 in '00.

Duncan averaged 13-10.5-2.5 on 48% shooting 15.5 PER and .500 TS.
Robinson averaged 23.5-14-3 on 37% shooting 25.6 PER and .463 TS

Also 20-10-2 is better than Duncan's playoff stats going back to 2008.