Both equally stretched the facts... what else is new..
Yahoo News
WASHINGTON - Republican Sarah Palin criticized a version of a Barack Obama health care plan that doesn't exist and Democrat Joe Biden clung to a misleading charge about Republicans and big oil when the two clashed in the vice presidential debate Thursday.
Some examples of facts cast adrift in the debate:
PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."
THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repe ive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.
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BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation."
THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis today. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse.
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PALIN: Criticized Obama's "plan to mandate health care coverage and have universal government run program" for health care, and added: "I don't think it's going to be real pleasing for Americans to consider health care being taken over by the Feds."
THE FACTS: Wrong on several counts. Obama's plan does not provide for universal coverage, only mandates insurance for children and doesn't turn the system over to the government. Most people would still get private insurance through their work. Obama proposes that the government subsidize the cost of health coverage for millions who have trouble affording it and he'd set up an exchange to negotiate prices and benefits with private insurers — with one option being a government-run plan.
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BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."
THE FACTS: That's not surprising — the money is meant to pay for health insurance. The Obama campaign tried to capitalize on the candidates' health care exchange by issuing an ad Friday contending that the Republicans can't explain "the McCain health tax."
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PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."
THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters — McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control.
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BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."
THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.
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PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.
THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began.
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BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."
THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide compe ion, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."
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PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."
THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."
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PALIN: "Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year."
BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes."
THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others.
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PALIN: Said a McCain-Palin administration "will support Israel," including "building our embassy ... in Jerusalem."
THE FACTS: Moving the U.S. Embassy from its present location in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a perennial promise of presidential candidates courting the Jewish-American vote. In fact, moving the embassy is actually required by U.S. law. But successive administrations of both parties, including George W. Bush's, have made the same pledge only to find that the realities of Middle East peacemaking have forced them to invoke a waiver to delay it. Jerusalem is claimed as a capital by both Israel and the Palestinians and Israel's occupation of east Jerusalem is not internationally recognized. The city's status is one of the key issues of disagreement in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Associated Press writers Tom Raum, Steve Quinn, Jim Kuhnhenn, Lolita Baldor and Matthew Lee contributed to this report.
I'll cop to Palin's exaggerations.
Anyone, however, gonna argue after that list, that the Dems aren't full into the slander game? The attacks on McCain's healthcare plan seem particularly egregious.
Also, how can letting Bush's tax cuts run out raise taxes on people who only make 42K? I thought he only cut taxes on the rich?
McLame's health care "plan" IS egregious.
It would encourage companies to drop health care coverage, and for those companies who did maintain health care coverage, it would not be tax deductible.
The avg family of 4 with employee health care coverage pays $12000/year for health insurace, of which $9K is paid by the employer, and the $3000/year for out-of-pocket healt expenses.
McLiar's plan would encourage companies not to offer coverage, pushing $9K onto the family of four, while giving only a $2500 tax break, iow, raising the costs to avg famly by $6500/year.
That's the disaster for for a healthy family.
If the family has a member with a chronic illness, they will not be able to get ANY insurance from for-profit insurance companies.
Result? Very probably 10s of millions more Americans would be without any health insurance.
Why don't you go out and try to purchase your own health insurance and get back to us.
If you want to take it a step further, go try to fill a prescription with that insurance and let them tell you their team of doctors have decided that "x" drug works just as well as an older "y" drug and that since "x" drug is newer and more expensive we don't cover it. We know better than your doctor.
I can tell you I worked for a health insurance company for 3 years while I was in college, and I never saw this "team of doctors".
Now sit there an tell me we need to let these guys run wild, unregulated.
I do purchase my own (and for my 30 employees).
I also process medical claims for a living - sell our services to businesses. I can talk at length on the subject, but got to leave for a lunch date with my wife.
I can talk at length too. I've worked for a company that provided coverage to those small companies like yours. We didn't cover individuals. They are two completely different things.
In looking for coverage for 31 families, you have more pull than someone shopping for insurance on their own. Company coverage is a lot different than self coverage.
Maybe you're different, but the companies that we covered were in the dark and confused about the way we functioned and we went great lengths to keep it that way. The less they knew, the better.
I was standing in line to pick up a prescription for my wife yesterday, and the lady in front of me had self coverage. 4 out of her 6 prescriptions were not covered by her plan. I couldn't help but over hear since I was stuck in line behind her for 30 minutes while they called her insurance company.
It was intellectual dishonesty. You'd have to be a single payer making $42,000 and your taxes would go up a whopping $15.
Believe me, more and more employer sponsored plans are excluding more and more drugs (brand name, specifically). Anybody who want the carrot dangled by the Fed of the HSA MUST have a plan that has a high deductible, no copays for either office visits, or Rx.
I am familiar with the individual market; although I don't market it; had to learn it to get licensed. It certainly is no panacea - but RIGHT NOW, as a healthy 40 year old, with a wife and three kids, I could get a plan with the same coverage as I have under my group plan than it costs under my plan. I employ several people over the age of 65 (3), and their costs drive up the price for the entire group. If I didn't have a plan; they would be on Medicare.
That said, the biggest problem with the employer funded health insurance model is the disociation from the entire process that the patients are subjected to. They are, for a very personal choice, at the mercy of their eomployer. They could have a doctor, be happy with him, be a couple of days from surgery, and their employer could change palns, companies, deductibles, you name it. It happens regularly. Also, people could work where they are best suited, and not work specifically where their is a plan that best fits them. People, themselves, are best equipped to know what level of coverage they need. Some want very little out of pocket exposure, some are willing to accept more risk for the lower premiums. Some don't mind a gate keeper model; some want to be able to go to any damn specialist they want to, when they want to. Right now, each person's choice is made for them by their employer - not ideal, IMO.
As for Insurance compaies? Yes, they will behave in their own best interest (understand, I am no fan of Insurance Carriers; I compete with them - I sell against them); so many of the regs currently levelled at group insurance will need to be levelled at the individual level. This will be tricky, and I haven't seen how McCain proposes to do it. Right now it isn't the insurance co.s that are regulated, it is the employers - and the Federal Gvt. derives its power to do so through the interstate commerce clause of the Cons ution; the fed has no right to do the same to individuals; and insurance companies are the domain of the States; I believe he wants to change that (my state's rights instincts quiver).
Anyway, I think individual choice would best serve the industry - but I don't think it can happen anytime soon; too much infrrastructure to change all at once. I also feel that health coverage should be "universal"; as a modern, wealthy, country, our citizens should not have to worry about bankruptsy if they get sick. Obama's plan, as far as I can tell, isn't going to control costs, nor provide universal coverage. McCain's could control costs better; but, ironically, is the more "radical" plan, and has little chance of going anywhere.
So, what that means is that even though everybody WANTS something done about healthcare, and even though both candidates are talking about it; it's still gonna be a huge issue in 4 years, because the system is still going to be nearly identical to what it is now (but we'll probably be covering more of the uninsured through some form of govt. assistance).
btw; My company also has a panel of doctors, and very few of my employees ever "see" them; they come in after hours (and they each bill by the hour, so I don't let them stay long).
Which is what, double?
What's double?
15 X 2 = Now dude would pay $30 dollars in taxes.
I must have missed something in the thread. Under what plan would it double?
So, you two agree?
I believe he's just being facetious saying that a single person that makes 42k only pays $15 in taxes in the first place. He's just being funny.
What's the point of a debate if it's just a bunch of lies?
Because that's what politics have become. He said she said crap. The Cons ution says nothing about a 2 party system, but politicians love to argue.
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