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George Hill.
Some Numbers on Duncan, Russell, Jordan, & Shaq
compiled by Galileo
Stats only include games the player actually played in.
Career Playoff win/loss records:
Bill Russell
107 wins, 58 losses, in 13 playoff seasons
.648
Tim Duncan
100 wins, 55 losses, in 10 playoff seasons
.645
Michael Jordan
119 wins, 60 losses, in 13 playoff seasons
.665
Shaquille O'Neal
122 wins, 81 losses, in 16 playoff seasons
.601
I have not compliled the numbers for Bird and Magic or Kareem.
However, it's safe to say that the level of continued excellence shown by Tim Duncan rates right up at the top in the annals of NBA history.
If Tim goes 7-3, he ties Bill Russell
If Tim goes 19-5, he ties Michael Jordan
If Tim goes 22-26, he ties Shaq
Regular Season Records
(includes all games, including those missed by player)
Bill Russell
716 wins, 299 losses, in 13 seasons
.705
Tim Duncan
652 wins, 272 losses, in 12 seasons (through game 54 this season)
.706
So if you are going to talk about winning, Tim Duncan wins just as much as Bill Russell.
Tim ties Bill Russell if the Spurs go 64-27 in the next 91 regular season games (doable).
Russell won more les because during most of his career, you needed to only win two playoff series to win the le, and there were only 8 teams, so you only had to be better than 7 other teams, rather than 29 like today.
Tim Duncan is not done yet, either. Duncan is under contract with the Spurs for three more seasons after this one. The Spurs have managed the salary cap well. I expect Duncan to drop a little by 2012 to maybe a 2nd team all-NBA player, or even 3rd-team. He will still have all-star Tony Parker in his prime. Backup George Hill looks like a keeper as well. Manu will probably be on the decline soon, but I expect the Spurs to maintain their lofty pace for at least three more seasons.
Even if Duncan is averaging 15 points and 10 borads four years from now, he will still be an all-star caliber player, and I expect some young stud to jump on board to help Tim win another ring, or 2, or,....
George Hill.
I forgot to mention that I think Ian Mahimni will be an all-star by the year 2012.
nice research... Basically this confirms again what we all know... Tim is the man.
Regular Season W/L Records (all game included)
Duncan
652-272
.706
Jordan
769-461 (15 seasons)
.625
Average wins per 82 games
Duncan
58 wins, 24 losses
Jordan
51 wins, 31 losses
For Duncan to tie Jordan, the Spurs must:
win 117
lose 189
in their next 306 games.
Easy.
Duncan > Jordan
great post. but we need hollinger to approve and certify this post before these statistics can be valid.
Hollinger says the Spurs will miss the playoffs this season.
Stats can only account for so much. No question Tim Duncan is a Hall Of Fame player, but it takes more than a few numbers to make him greater than the GOAT.
A FEW numbers, eh? Did you not see all the numbers racked up by Duncan??
Duncan's W/L record is 100-55 in the playoffs, almost exactly the same as Russell's 107-58.
Duncan's regular season W/L record is 652-272, almost exactly the same as Russell's 716-299.
Combined total record:
Duncan; 752-327
.697
Russell; 823-357
.697
If Russell is the greatest winner in sports history, then so is Tim Duncan. They both won at exctly the same rate.
Then factor this in:
Russell played against inferior compe ion. When Russell played, it was before the post WWII baby-boomers came on board, before blacks were fully integrated into the NBA, and before there were any international players.
The fact is, 6'9" centers don't much exist anymore.
Here's another factor.
In Tim Duncan's career, he has never had a 1st-team, all-NBA teammate, and only once did he have a 2nd-team teammate (DRob in 1998).
Russell had many all-NBA teammates:
1957
Bob Cousy, 1st-team
Bill Sharman, 1st-team
1958
Cousy & Sharman, both 1st-team
1959
Cousy & Sharman, both 1st-team
1960
Cousy, 1st-team
Sharman, 2nd-team
1961
Cousy, 1st-team
Tom Heinsohn, 2nd-team
1962
Cousy & Heinsohn, both 2nd-team
1963
Cousy & Heinsohn, both 2nd-team
1964
Heinsohn & John Havlicek, both 2nd-team
1965
Sam Jones, 2nd-team
1966
Havlicek & Jones, both 2nd-team
1967
Jones, 2nd-team
1968
Havlicek, 2nd-team
1969
Havlicek, 2nd team
TOTALS
Duncan
one all-NBA teammate
one season 2nd-team
Russell
Had an all-NBA teammate every year of his career.
Five different all-NBA teammates
Eight first-team teammate seasons
14 2nd-team teammate seasons
Duncan > Russell
Last edited by Galileo; 02-22-2009 at 07:58 PM.
It depends on how you define "winner".. the ultimate definition is number of championships, something that all those great individual winners would probably agree upon. That's why I have a hard time putting malone, Stockton, Barkley and non-other champions in the same category as Russell, Jordan, Duncan, etc..
Duncan < GOAT = Jordan
Duncan > Russell
GEORGE HILL > players mention in this thread
Good post!!
Using the argument "there were 8 teams he had to beat" is a 2-sided sword...that also means that good players were on every team, like there were no Udokas on most teams :P
Less compe ion, new league. An 8 team NBA TODAY would have great players on all of them, but there wasn't such an extraordinary amount of talent back then.
That's the truth.
Great stuff, Galileo. Thanks for compiling all of this.
Thanks also for not including the collossally overrated Mr. Bryant in this analysis. He can't hold hold a candle to any of these NBA legends.
Tim Duncan is in the conversation for best big man of all time because of the very point you bring up -- he hasn't had top tier talent with him the whole way through. He now has an all-star point guard, but man, Parker may never make all-NBA first team unless he gets a real jump shot. And Manu can't stay healthy long enough to. We all know that Big Dave was fading by the time Tim got here, so in my opinion, Duncan has done more carrying on his four les than most all-time greats. Guys like Russell, Magic, Kareem, and Bird had WAY more help than Duncan.
Another good post!!!
I'd take Bryant over Russell in a heartbeat. No well in over any of the other three though.
You had less players in the NBA then
True, but my point stands. Russell had WAY more help, no matter how you slice it.
Russell had 4 of the NBA's top 50 players all-time for teammates.
Bob Cousy for 7 seasons (all of them as an all-star)
Sam Jones for 12 seasons (5 as all-star)
John Havlicek for 7 seasons (4 as all-star) [He would have won more honors, had he not come off the bench, like Ginobili]
Bill Sharman for 5 seasons (4 as all-star)
NBA 50 Greatest Players
http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._greatest.html
Cousy won the MVP in 1957, Russell's rookie season.
Havlicek went on, after Russell retired to lead the Celtics to NBA les in his old age in '74 and '76.
Sharman I would argue is overrated, shouldn't be a top 50 player.
Sam Jones was either the 3rd or 4th best guard of the 1960s (behind Oscar & West, tied with Hal Greer), and played his entire prime with Russell.
In 1957, the Celts also had the rookie of the year, hall-of-famer Tom Heinsohn (not Russell, because he missed much of the season in the Olympics). Heinsohn was still making the all-NBA team in 1964, and the all-star team in '65. He played his entire career with Russell. In 1960, Heinsohn had a 20-10 season. (pts/reb)
Heinsohn made 6 all-star teams with Russell.
Another hall-of-fame player (although overrated) was Frank Ramsey, who played with Russell from '57 through '64.
Russell had still another hall-of-famer from '67 to '69, Bailey Howell. Howell made the all-star team in 1967.
Duncan has 3 hall-of-fame teammates, as Parker and Ginobili will both eventually get in, along with DRob. Bowen might as well, you never know. So might Horry or even Finley has a shot, because of all the rings.
Last edited by Galileo; 02-23-2009 at 11:10 AM.
I wish I had a time machine and could transport TD back to Russell's era or vice-versa. No doubt TD with his sound fundamentals would have been a dominant player. On the other hand, Russell could run and jump like a gazelle and would fit right into today's fast-paced, small-ball game..
Oh, I forgot, Russell had even one more hall-of-fame teammate, K.C. Jones. Jones played his entire career, '59 to '67, with Russell.
So Russell for teammates had:
1 MVP player
5 all-NBA team players
4 top 50 players
8 hall-of-famers
6 all-star players
oops, I found two more hall-of-fame players who played with Russell; Andy Phillip and Clyde Lovellette.
Phillip finished up his career in '57 and '58, and Lovellette finished up his career in '63 and '64, both with Boston.
Phillip had been an all-star as recently as 1955, while Lovellette was an all-star in 1961, and scored over 20 pts/game in 1962. Both had their minutes drop quite a bit with their new teams, but they still were good players.
That makes 10 hall-of-famers who played with Russell.
Well that all ofcourse doesn'r change the fact that Russell was he reason Celtics were dynasty.
He was the one who got them winning.
btw. all those all-stars and HOF's credited from being in the winning team which ofcouse not making them worse then they were.
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