At 82games.com, there is a 3-part article that analyzes the performance of all NBA players in the clutch.
From the last article:
"All right, a lot of people would balk at the notion of Manu Ginobili as the NBA's most clutch player. The facts though are he is very productive on offense (#6 in the league in points per minute during clutch stages), draws an incredible number of shooting fouls (#8 and the top perimeter player), knocks down the free throws (81%), creates his own shot (only 8% of his clutch FGM are assisted), holds his counterpart to sub-par performance (.342 eFG and only 1.9 Assists to 3.1 Turnovers), and while his +9 plus/minus doesn't seem like much, the Spurs have actually been -21 when he's off the court during crunch time, good for the #12 on/off or Clutch Roland Rating in the league. Did we mention that 60% of his crunch time shots are taken inside? Manu takes it to the hole!
This will not sway Kobe Bryant fans any, who are still reveling in his incredible recent performance in the 4th quarter against Charlotte. That however is the problem in a nuts -- people remember the game where he's brilliant, and forget the games (yes, plural) where he falls short. Let's state it one more time, Kobe is a good clutch player, but not currently the best. For further evidence that Kobe is not infallible, you might want to check out his 03-04 playoff clutch efforts, when he had a Field Goal Percentage of, ahem, 28%..."
I recommend reading it, since it is quite instructive.
The articles can be found at:
Part I: Clutch Scorers
Part II: Plus/Minus, Rebounding, Passing
Part III: PER Ratings, Counterpart PER, Overall Ratings
word.
Ginobili has been great this season. When he's attacking the basket in the fourth, the Spurs are tough to beat.
so does that mean he is greater then james?
No.
so being more clutch then someone else does not make you actually the better player
Correct.
noone is saying Manu is better than Kobe, that would be ridiculous
It means Manu is being used more for his scoring this season, especially in the clutch.
And for the most part he has been an efficient and effective clutch player. He may not have made last second shots to win games, but he does all the things that he needs to be doing for his team to contend in the clutch (such as scoring, getting to the line and converting).
Of course it does not mean he is better than the elite SG's of the league, but it is nice to know Ginobili can usually be counted on to attack the basket and convert at the FT line in the clutch.
Isn't Manu himself one of the elite SG's in the league?
After all he is an all-star....
Depends on who and what you classify as being elite. He isn't on the level of the Kobe's, Iversons, McGrady's, and Wade's of the league. Of course it depends on who you classify as being an SG, but there are a good handful of elite swingmen who are obviously better players than Manu.
He's not better than all of those guys, but if he could play 40 mpg and was his teams primary scoring option like those guys are, he'd be right there.
"Depends on who and what you classify as being elite. He isn't on the level of the Kobe's, Iversons, McGrady's, and Wade's of the league. Of course it depends on who you classify as being an SG, but there are a good handful of elite swingmen who are obviously better players than Manu."
Considering he is a better defender than many on that list, led his team to Olympic Gold and has a ring a case could be made is severely under-rated. Is he a Kobe no?
But what other ones on that list have ever won anything?
Ginobili has won a lot as a leader INTERNATIONALLY. Not in the NBA.
It's like comparing apples to oranges. Using the whole 'winner' mantra is a little tired because we do not know what Ginobili would do as a team leader in the NBA, and we do not know what Tmac or Ivy would do Internationally under similiar cir stances as Manu. It's an illogical comparison.
But as it stands, as an NBA player Ginobili has not proven any more than these guys. Sure the International les are impressive and show he can be a solid leader on the floor. But the fact remains is he has not actually done it FOR A SEASON in the NBA.
Until he starts putting up 21-5-5 in this system, I cannot say he is on the same plain as the ELITE SWINGMEN on the league.
You've got to be kidding. Name one swingman in the league that puts up 21-5-5 in 30 minutes. Just one. Bryant, McGrady, Iverson all play over 40mpg. If Manu's numbers are projected out to 40mpg, they're 21.5/6/5. And he's the third scoring option on the team, unlike all of those guys.
The only legitimate knock on Ginobili as one of the league's elite wings is that he may not be durable enough to play that many minutes. And that still remains to be seen, IMO.
BTW,You think Ivy would score 21 a game on this team, in this system??? What about as the third scoring option? Dude takes half of the shots for his team, and misses most of them. You think Pop would put up with that?
I had no idea they were that good per 40If Manu's numbers are projected out to 40mpg, they're 21.5/6/5
thats freakin awesome.
I'm not kidding at all. If Manu could play just as effectively for 40mpg as he does 30mpg he would at least get 35-36mpg by Pop. If you increase Manu's possesions dramatically, your likely to see law of diminishing returns in terms of his efficiency. Thats just the way it usually works out. In some cases a player might get better with more possesions, but I don't think Manu's efficiency would INCREASE if you gave him leadership of a team and 17 or 18 shots. Usually young players are the guys who fall into the category of getting better with more possesions, because they are actually still growing as basketball players at a higher degree than middle age veterans.
I think Manu's passing and assist to TO ratio would be better, but his scoring efficiency would go down with a heavy increase in minutes.
AI, Tmac and Wade are amazing players, but they haven't won . Internationally or in the NBA.
Nikos, his scoring efficiency could go down a long way before it got as bad as AI's. Check it out. It doesn't need to increase at all. The only question is if he could play more minutes at the same level that he does now. It's not a question of him getting better. He's already that good for 30 minutes. If he got 16-17 shots per game he could score 24 ppg even if his efficiency did drop off some.
Well that is a BIG question. I tend to think his scoring efficiency would go down, but his ballhandling/passing efficiency would go up. But that is just a guess. Manu is more of an all around player, not a pure scorer if you play him 40mpg. Even he alludes to this as well. In 30-35mpg he can be used as an excellent scorer per minute, while also providing a solid floor game. But all that changes with more possesions, minutes, pressure, and responsilibity.
I think Manu still can improve on his turnover situation. That is his main weakness and my only gripe on his game thus far. I think he can limit those turnovers even despite his 'wild' style of play.
As for those other elite guards, well they are better than Manu. Wade and Iverson may not have won a le, but they are playing better basketball than Manu. They have accomplished more in the NBA as individual talents and how it fits with respect to their team.
Winning on the international stage is nice, and I respect Manu a lot for it. He has shown his character, leadership, and his ability to win despite his team being the underdog. But I am not going to use that as a major basis for saying he is a better NBA player than the NBA's elite swing men. His international accolades are not enough to elevate him over and into the NBA's elite. He is an all star, but not a dominant player in this league at his position. He is an above average player, and an all star teamatte. A championship type of player. But he is no more of a leader of an NBA team than Tmac, Iverson, Kobe, or Wade. He has not proven as much as these guys on the NBA stage. I hope he can continue to improve into next season and eventually be a borderline elite/perenial all star calibur NBA guard. He has the goods to possibly even be a better player than he is. But who knows, if he will get any better? Who knows if he really could lead an NBA team any better than Iverson or McGrady?
Until he improves a bit on his turnovers, plays a few more minutes and/or increases his scoring I do not think he can be considered elite. Maybe if the Spurs win the le in convincing fashion a few times, and he continues to put up 17-18ppg-5rpg/4apg , than maybe you can make a better case for him being a perenial all star and elite guard in this league.
I hope he gets there, but he is not there...yet.
Bronx Cowboy wins.
Nikos:
Stats comparisons are always BS. Uh Manu was an all-star this year already, whose to say he is not already going to be a periannual all-star? The WCF coaches know how special he is - it is just not in his stats! He is also a of a defender.
I have a feeling interchange him with Wade (where there are not both Parker and Duncan getting points and both teams would have about same record and players statistics, Wade and Manu might well flip) In other words, despite Wade's statistical breakout year I am not convinced yet he is "heads and shoulders above Manu". TMac has arguebly the most talent of all you list but time will tell, so far = big loser in NBA.
Check out Wade's TOs.
Manu has become the go to player in the 4th. TD and TP often carry the team for three and then clear out and let Manu do his work in the 4th when the games on the line. Same as Wade this year. Same as kobe in past years. And usually he delivers as the 82game.com article points out. The clutch player on a dominant team. To me that makes him an elite player.
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