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nice research whottt, how exactly did you find all these stats though im curious?
Here's the numbers:
Average minutes played in wins:
Brent - 21.3
Devin - 17.6
Average minutes played in losses:
Brent - 20.1
Devin - 21.1
Team record when scoring > 10 points:
Brent - 20-2
Devin - 14-6
Team record when scoring < 10 points:
Brent - 31-17
Devin - 36-11
Just for Chump...
Record when playing < 10 minutes:
Brent - 3-3(mother er! How hard is it to seeeeeeee)
Devin - 12-2
FG%
2pt FG%:
Brent - 530%(second best on the team to Manu)
Devin - 444%(second worst on the team to Bowen)
3pt FG%:
Brent - 357%
Devin - 372%
Devin seems to be better...until you realize Barry takes over twice the amount of 3 shots that Devin does...Devin has gone stretches of 6 or 7 games this season without even attempting a 3. Barry has made nearly twice as many 3's as Devin.
PPS:
Brent - 1.29(tied with Duncan for third on the team behind Manu and Horry)
Devin - 1.21(only Rasho and Bowen get fewer PPS than Devin out of the regular rotation)
It goes on and on and on...if you look at clutch statistics you see Barry has been the best(or among them) on the team while Devin has been among the worst...Barry is the guy that hit clutch shots this season...Devin is the guy that didn't even stand still to take a foul and win a game.
On defense? Barry has played heavy minutes in our lowest scoring games of the season...
If he can't play D he at least knows how to nutride the out of guys who do.
Offense? Our biggest margin of victory this season came when Barry started for Manu.
It's gets even deeper...if you look at how they play against teams we are likely to meet in the playoffs...Barry shoots very well against just about all of those teams(althouh not always from 3), while Devin shoots absolutely awful against some of them(like Phoenix).
It's time to stop playing games with this and realize that this team is an awesome team when Barry is playing well and relied upon.....while Devin playing well seems to not matter at all.
End the compe ion between them and give Barry about 25 mins per game(but make him a part of the damn offense or else it means nothing)...since we are nearly unbeatable when we do that.
Last edited by whottt; 03-30-2005 at 10:03 AM.
nice research whottt, how exactly did you find all these stats though im curious?
I found the minutes and PPG stats At ESPN.com.
Check it out for yourself...
Devin
Brent
To check out the minutes and PPG stats click on the game logs...
To see how they have performed against the teams we are likely to face in the post season click on season splits.
The clutch stats can be found here:
82 Games
There was an even more revealing stat site that Nikos showd me(that is down right now for some reason)...
It had a points per posession stat that measured how many points a team would score if a certain player handled the ball for 100 posessions...
In the heart of his slump...in probably the most miserable season of his career...Brent Barry was #1 on the team in that stat. Meaning, if all the guys on the team got the ball for 100 posessions...we'd score more points with Barry handling the ball than any other player.
And this was when he was slumping...
This guy is an amazingly efficient offensive player...even this year when he's struggling. It's stunning how high he grades out when you get into these really detailed efficiency stats....and the win-loss and PT record reflects it.
The only real question about this guy is how he will perform in the playoffs...but even there he is a career 40% 3 point shooter playing for teams like the Clippers and the Bad Sonics...how many guys can say that?
I am bigger fan of this guy now than I was when I first heard they signed him, in spite of his struggles...I wasn't really that high on him at first.
Whottt a statistics.
Like stats- they are not saying everything.
But those gives us a little hmm thinking. Maybe Brent is not so bad.
For me Brent always was an important player. Now --when brown is out- he can show his potential. And we hope to have that Brent to the rest of the season.
Ps. I thinh Whottt is thinking about that "Posterer of the year" award.
Am I wrong ?
Keep up the good writing.
jeese whottt, that's a lot of time and energy you put into this, i would have just said
1) Devin makes bad mistakes at important times in the game
2) Barry can do more things offensivley, and even as a mediocre defender in a swing position, the rest of the guys on the team can easily cover for him, and do.
3) He costs more money and plays well when given consistant minutes, so Barry should have the consistant time.
4) during the last three games he has out played Manu in less minutes.
the one problem I have with barry was he was passing open shots up
even if they were two point shots
THAT IS HORSE !
he already won one
longest post award goes to him
oh by the way I would hope barry would make better decesions then a guy that has not been in the league as long or has played as many minutes
barry I would bet played atleast twice as many minutes as devin has
Just having the opportunity to get out and play, you start to feel more comfortable and it‘s been nice to do that,” said Barry recently.
what does it mean???
i think only one person don't understand this--coach pop--
barry >>>>>>>brown
simple barry know the games
pop and brown.......
I think Whott has said it that way about 1000 times(literally). Other Posters have said that it was bull . Now he has the numbers. The numbers really validate everything he has been stating over the last few months.
Whott, Nice stats-- I was always one of the guys fighting the battle for Barry and Like you I am now a bigger fan. It really makes me hope that Pop keeps giving him the consistent Minutes and gives Devin the spot minutes when he is ready to come back.
he already won one
longest post award goes to him
Don't be hater ducks...I don't force anyone to read them and some people like long posts.
I personally like long posts by other posters, and tend to post less when other people are writing a bunch of them...they are like news articles...I like articles.
Took me about 20 minutes...most of it I already knew to begin with since this is the same information that lead me to support Barry in the first place( I seriously wasn't that crazy about the signing at first).
And really...the only stat I really needed to post is this one:
That pretty much says it all right there and actually I am cheating Barry...Just for Chump...
Record when playing < 10 minutes:
Brent - 3-3(mother er! How hard is it to seeeeeeee)
Devin - 12-2
One of those wins we got when he played less than 10 mins was the first Detroit game where he came in and hit the clutch Free Throws when everyone else was choking them...we probably lose that game if not for Barry...and truthfully we probably a 2-4 record with him playing less than 10 minutes.
In contrast...when he plays over 25 minutes a game and Duncan is healthy? We have a 19-2 record.
The win-loss record never lies.
I have no problem with this and your analysis to skew the minutes to Barry (esp if his confidence continues to improve) but an obvious solution is play both at times as back ups to Manu and Bowen (or on the floor with Manu, Barry, and Brown together) Despite your statistics there is no denying that when healthy Devin is the Spurs primary "energy guy".
I use stats in arguments all the time, a lot of times they help me form my opinion...it's just I usually use them on about the 10th page of a thread that everyone else is tired of reading in the middle of a 2000 word post
But you are right sometimes the stats do lie...but when you use them with other stats and they are backed by the win loss column...you just can't get much more accurate...anything else is unproven speculation.
And nah...you can't try to win a poster of the year award, and there are too many great posters at this site and I am head a lot of the time...besides I really do think NBAdan deserves it if anyone does
I actually like long post to whott
one liners do not mean alot to me
I try to write more but to do not have the time
Give SeguSpur and LakerGod Co-Posterior of the Year Award (and no that is no mispelling, I am talking about a gluteus maximus award)
I agree that Devin is the Primary energy guy. However that is how he should be used. If the spurs are flat bring him in, if we are letting guys get easy buckets bring him in. for us to have the best chance to win in the playoffs,the majority of the minutes need to go to Brent. Brent is the thing we have that no else has off the Bench. he makes us a different team and a more efficient team. Devin just changes the style of play at his position and does not change the style of the team. He does hustle and inspire other guys to hustle, and don't get me wrong sometimes we need that. But other times his style disrupts the flow of the game and hurts the spurs offense. We need to avoid those times.
I didn't skew anything...
I don't have personal bias in favor of Barry, I wanted to start Devin in the offseason, he was the only guy that showed up really against LA...
And he is an energy guy..but he also is very inexperienced and does disrupt the Spurs offense and defense almost as much as he does it to our opponents...
You can go look at any stats you want and get them as detailed or generic as you want and the only ones you'll find Devin better at is rebounding and 3 point PCT...and he doesn't have that big of a margin in either of those categories...And the W-L record is totally in Barry's favor.
The only thing I am skewed towards is winning a le this season...and I don't like Devin enough to want to see him get minutes ahead of a guy that helps the team more, even if that guy is shooting poorly from 3 by his own standard and no one elses'.
Thank you bro for getting it...and thanks for noticing I had said it about 1000 times lmao...I finally gave up and just busted out the numbers
You should post more...you seem to be an observant guy and I would like to see your thoughts on the team more often.
ducks, you're perfect just as you are...don't go changin'
Although you might want to lose the Malik/Barry hate before you wind up vbuckless
It's not that I don't believe Barry is a better player than Brown - he is - but some of those stats present chicken/egg questions.
For instance, are we losing because we're not playing Barry 10 minutes or more... or are we not playing Barry 10 minutes because he is sucking and contributing to our losing the game?
HAHAHAHAH-PATHETIC
-my how the tide always turns when a guy has a couple good games, you people on here flip flop when the wind blows. Now when Barry has a couple of bad games the post begging for Devin to come back will mysteriously start to appear. Lets see how long the barry wave will last
I thought about that...I remember most of the games and the details and I ed about them at the time but in a nuts ...
Barry didn't make FG in the first half of any of those games and he didn't get any PT in the second half except to come in and hit the game saving FT's in the Detroit game...and the pass that Devin choked on in the first Houston game...
I wonder why he started pressing from 3....
In any case...you can't blame him for any of the losses, since he wasn't given an opportunity in the second half,but you can give him partial credit for at least one of the wins.
The games were:
VS Det 6 mins of PT Won 80-77
VS Sea 6 mins of PT Loss 102-96
@ Hou 9 mins of PT Loss 81-80
VS Cle 8 mins of PT Win 116-97
VS Orl 2 mins of PT Win 94-91 <<< this one was the genesis of that stupid bet with Chump
@ Orl 7 mins of PT Loss 93-87
You can't blame Barry for any of those losses...look, none of those losses were by more than 6 points...nearly all of them we blew a lead or stagnated in the 4th quarter...
Remember what Barry just did against Houston in the 4th quarter...he didn't get that chance against those teams...
I wish I could find the stat for what he has shot in the second half of games VS the first half...because I am 99% certain he has shot much better in the second halves of games...He didn't do crap in the first half of the big Phoenix win...those threes he bombed late...he'd only made like 1 shot the entire game before those.
That's another stat in his favor...when he gets a lot of PT we have a huge margin of victory and when he doesn't we barely seem to win except for that Cleveland game.
I don't think there is any denying that early int he season when we looked so good...Barry was averaging 30 mins per game...and he was still confident even though his shot hadn't come around yet...but that's when our passing game was so awesome.
Thiis last slump he was just afraid to do anything because he didn't want to get yanked.
Pop has yanked him for missing shots...Pop yanked him in 1 game for a turn over and it was his only turn over of the game.
The dude has been abused, he damn sure hasn't been coddled. He's been the team .
And I'd say 99% of it is because Pop doesn't like his D...but ironically, statistically our defense doesn't suffer when he is in the game...so he evidently knows how to nutride the greatness of other defensive players.
I think it's more because we don't miss as many shots when he is in the game and there aren't as many turnovers.
You are kidding right?HAHAHAHAH-PATHETIC
-my how the tide always turns when a guy has a couple good games, you people on here flip flop when the wind blows. Now when Barry has a couple of bad games the post begging for Devin to come back will mysteriously start to appear
I wish this board would flip flop after Barry has a good series of games...that aint what's happening...the Barry bashers are stubborn to come around.
I think Devin does things that are important that do not appear in a box score...but statistically.....the numbers don't lie. Personally, I am glad the Spurs have them both.
As someone who also likes to crunch numbers....I tip my hat to you, Whottt. Well done.
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