Spurs player pairings(which Spurs pairs play the best togerher)

[whottt]

Ok, last 82Games post for the night...

82Games


Player Pairs/Tandem statistics

The following numbers represent the plus/minus per 48 minute stats while two specific players were on the floor together. The summary table is color coded with the green cells representing cases where the +/- numbers for the player in the far left column were better with that specific teammate than his overall +/- stats.

Please note that these numbers are in raw form and have not been adjusted for the other players in the five-man unit, nor for the opposing 5-man unit on the floor at the same time. We do have adjusted ratings available, as well as full details on the 2-man pairs (team eFG%, rebounding, turnover data, shot selection, etc) -- for more information contact us.

[whottt]

When you look at this thing in color coated terms it gives you a revealing and in some cases, confirming, perspective...

Looking at the solid green down the lines of Duncan and Manu...well obviously they make everyone they play with better...no secret there...but they also make each other better...their highest +/- pair on the team is each other...

Is it any wonder we look like a far different team now with that dynamic gone?

But take a look at Rasho...after Duncan and Manu he may be the guy that does the most to make most of his teamates better...

What's surprising(or not, to some of us)...is that there is only one player on the team that seems to lift the games of both Duncan and Manu...and his name Robert Horry...looking back on his past...it's not really much of a surprise.

What's also revealing is that the Beno/Parker backcourt pairing is absolute poison...

Take a look at the total white down the columns of Brown, Rose, Bowen and Massenburg...these guys seem to have the least amount of impact on the games of their teamates..and in a way they are all very similar players who carry the toughness, hustling, and defensive aspect of this team...they get the dirty work.

In Bruce's case...Bruce plays on an Island, he plays within the teams offense, but his defensive role pretty much leaves him to live or die on his own...his job is defense

Devin and Malik were hustling energy type guys capable of big numbers or kickstarting a team with hustle...but their big games did not necessarily translate to the team playing well...I have been saying this all season...

Mass is kind of enforcer type...it's usually not a pretty game when he is in there...

Now take a look at the left side of names and look down the lines of Parker and RAsho...

These guys are the inverse of Bowen, Rose, Mass and Brown...

Very few of their teamates seem to be able to raise their games or make them better...they are capable of making others better, but very few seem to be capable of making them better. Their sucess is by and large up to them and no one else....Brown and Massenburg seem to be able to be helped the most by their teamates.

Then smack dab in the middle of it you have Manu....I think we all agree that Manu is a jack of all trades...What's interesting looking down Manu's lines is that...

Not only does he seem to make every other player on the team better, including Rasho and Parker...the two that seem be helped the least amount by their teamates.....



But when you look down Manu's left hand line...you see the players he seems to play the best with are Parker, Barry, Duncan and Horry....those are the ones that give him the most green....

I think if you polled most Spurfans in the offeseason...that would be lineup most Spursfans would pick for being the most effective and the one they most want on the court in the 4th quarter...

Which begs the question...why is that the most seldom used 5 man lineup on the team this season? Go look at the Spurs 5 man pariings and that lineup isn't evne listed because it's been used so few minutes....

Things that make you go hmmm.

[whottt]

It's also kind of interesting that Duncan's second best +/- after Manu is with Beno...And I'd say Beno probably has been the best 3 shooter off Duncan's kickouts this season...not Barry.

[Summers]

Interesting chart. The first thing I thought was "Holy cow, Rasho!"

[MI21]

But when you look down Manu's left hand line...you see the players he seems to play the best with are Parker, Barry, Duncan and Horry....those are the ones that give him the most green....

I think if you polled most Spurfans in the offeseason...that would be lineup most Spursfans would pick for being the most effective and the one they most want on the court in the 4th quarter...

Which begs the question...why is that the most seldom used 5 man lineup on the team this season? Go look at the Spurs 5 man pariings and that lineup isn't evne listed because it's been used so few minutes....

Things that make you go hmmm.

No huh.

Parker, Barry, Ginobili, Horry, Duncan is the lineup I would want out on the court in crunch time, perhaps subs uting Bowen in for somebody if opposing team has a player going off (Kobe, Tmac, Allen, LeBron, Iverson etc..).

Very surprsing to see it is very rarely used, I can't really see why that would be. Spurs didn't have to many close games when those 5 were all healthy, and as noted 657,990 times by Whottt, Barry often hasn't been used in the clutch. Strange.

[whottt]

The best and worst 5 man lineups for each player using the +/- of pairings...

Note: This is essentially a bunch of crap that has no true bearing on what the actual most productive 5 man units are with each player during actual court time together. It's just adding their highest and lowest +/- pairings just for the of it.

Beno:
Best - Barry, Ginobili, Horry, Duncan +49
Worst - Brown, Bowen, Massenburg, Rasho +3

Parker:
Best - Ginobili, Bowen, Duncan, Rasho +52(Tony's best lineup is the starting lineup)
Worst - Barry, Brown, Horry, Massenburg +20

Barry:
Best - Parker, Manu, Horry, Duncan +40
Worst - Udrih, Brown, Massenburg, Rasho +17

Brown:
Best - Beno, Manu, Horry, Duncan +34
Worst - Parker, Bruce, Massenburg, Rasho -3

Manu:
Best - Parker, Barry, Horry, Duncan +59
Worst - Beno, Brown, Massenburg, Rasho +49

Bruce:
Best - Parker, Manu, Duncan, Rasho +48<<<The starting lineup
Worst - Beno, Devin, Horry, Massenburg -7

Horry:
Best - Beno, Barry, Manu, Duncan +58
Worst - Parker, Brown, Bowen, Massenburg +26

Massenburg:
Best - Parker, Barry, Manu, Rasho +13 Weird...the only "best" lineup without Tim Duncan in it.
Worst - Beno, Brown, Bowen, Duncan -28 Even more weird...Duncan is in his worst lineup.

Duncan:
Best - Beno, Barry, Manu, Horry or Rasho +73
Worst - Parker, Brown, Bowen, Massenburg +39

Rasho:
Best - Parker, Manu, Bowen, Duncan +56<<<<Starting lineup
Worst - Beno, Barry, Brown, Massenburg +34

Manu is the only guy in every teamates "best" lineup...
Massenburg and Brown are in every teamates "worst" lineup.

Manu, Duncan and Horry are the most common 3 man combo in the best lineups.

Duncan, Manu, Barry and Horry are all in each others best lineups, and Beno's as well....that's the combo featured in the most "best" lineups...with Parker being the PG with Barry and Manu's best, and Beno being the PG with Duncan and Horry's best(and Beno).

Or to put it another way...

Barry and Manu both have the same "best" lineup.

Horry, Duncan and Beno all have the same "best" lineup(although Rasho and Horry are interchangeable in Duncan's best)...

Tony, Bruce and Rasho all have the same best lineup.

Duncan has the highest rated "best" lineup, by far.
Manu has the highest rated "worst" line up, also by far...in fact his "worst" lineup is the 5th "best" lineup listed.

[Solid D]

Interesting stats Whottt. Could also be led: "Making the guys around you better"

Top 5 best pairings by that chart (which doesn't include Nazr Mohammed on it)
+20 Duncan and Ginobili
+19 Duncan and Horry
+19 Duncan and Nesterovic
+19 Duncan and Udrih
+17 Ginobili and Horry

Top 5 worst pairings by that chart
-14 Massenburg and Udrih
-12 Rose and Nesterovic
-11 Parker and Udrih
- 9 Rose and Massenburg
- 8 Bowen and Brown

Ginobili is in double figures with everyone except Malik Rose (only a +8). The only player Rose played better with, though was with Tim Duncan (+15).

[MI21]

Top 5 best pairings by that chart (which doesn't include Nazr Mohammed on it)

Best and Nazr in the same sentence. Come on, Solid.

[boutons]

Consistent with what a lot of us felt: Tony + Beno sucks.

[Solid D]

@ MI21

Continuing the thought of players making the guys around them better...
acknowledging that "minutes played" impacts these stats, here are the rankings if you add up the +/- numbers for each player, not including their own (blue box):

Making the guys around them better
1. Tim Duncan +146
2. Manu Ginobili +141
3. Robert Horry +99
4. Rasho Nesterovic +85
5. Brent Barry +72
6. Tony Parker +65
7. Bruce Bowen +50
8. Beno Udrih +41
9. Devin Brown +19
10. Malik Rose +9
11. Tony Massenburg -18

[MI21]

Those statistics don't take into account making the players on the other team worse by smashing them in the face, arm, chest, etc.

When you take that into account, T-Mass is +539.

[whottt]

No huh.

Parker, Barry, Ginobili, Horry, Duncan is the lineup I would want out on the court in crunch time, perhaps subs uting Bowen in for somebody if opposing team has a player going off (Kobe, Tmac, Allen, LeBron, Iverson etc..).

Very surprsing to see it is very rarely used, I can't really see why that would be. Spurs didn't have to many close games when those 5 were all healthy, and as noted 657,990 times by Whottt, Barry often hasn't been used in the clutch. Strange.

Yeah and what makes it strange is back in the early part of the season that line up was one of the more popular and it rated as the best 5 man unit on the team(and AHF and I both posted that)...

Yet it has been completely unused since the beginning of the season...Lineups with Manu, Barry and Horry in them together are scarce period...Although they should be getting more common right now.

I think think Pop doesn't want to make Barry or Manu play SF, they haven't gotten much court time together this season until recently...and I think Pop doesn't like making Duncan play C...that's the only reason I can think of as to why that lineup isn't used more...who knows...maybe he really didn't like all those blowouts.

[SequSpur]

Rose doesn't play for the Spurs. Get over it. Plus in back to back games Manu can't play and Pop can't coach.

It doesn't take a chart to figure this out.

How about a chart on Manu since his allstar selection, and back to back games. Also, when Manu fails to show up for a game how many times does the Spurs lose by 20 because he needs to sit on the couch and rest?

Huh?

[whottt]

head....don't blame me...blame 82 games.com...he's still on the chart and I didn't put him there...GFY

[SequSpur]

My sincerest apology.

[Solid D]

The "Pop, Please Don't Play These Guys Together!" List

1. -14 Udrih and Massenburg
2. -12 Rose and Nesterovic
3. -11 Udrih and Parker
4. - 9 Rose and Massenburg
5. - 8 Brown and Bowen
5. - 8 Brown and Massenburg
7. - 7 Brown and Rose
7. - 7 Bowen and Massenburg
9. -1 Brown and Parker

[whottt]

Interesting stats Whottt. Could also be led: "Making the guys around you better"

Top 5 best pairings by that chart (which doesn't include Nazr Mohammed on it)
+20 Duncan and Ginobili
+19 Duncan and Horry
+19 Duncan and Nesterovic
+19 Duncan and Udrih
+17 Ginobili and Horry

Top 5 worst pairings by that chart
-14 Massenburg and Udrih
-12 Rose and Nesterovic
-11 Parker and Udrih
- 9 Rose and Massenburg
- 8 Bowen and Brown

Ginobili is in double figures with everyone except Malik Rose (only a +8). The only player Rose played better with, though was with Tim Duncan (+15).

Yeah...you could say that the "green" running north south indicates franchise player ability and the lack of it indicates more of a role player or specialist...it's pretty interesting how much the +/- matches the general consensus of Spursfans on those players strengths and weaknesses...

By the same token when you look at things running right and left you get a good look at the players that are the most versatile and adaptable to their teamates and those that aren't...

It's interesting Parker and Rasho seem to be able to help their teamates play better quite a bit...but they don't necessarily play their best with everyone...even if they are helping others...

Good catch on that Rasho Malik pairing..that's another poison one...although they did play well together last season IIRC.

[Solid D]

Sequ, of all the threads, this one should be the most humbling for you. Your last post, though, was appropriate for this thread.

My sincerest apology.

[picnroll]

I think when you go down the columns it's pretty obvious why Horry beat out Malik and why Malik needed to be dumped to reclaim the salary. Every single played at or above their average teamed with Horry. Every single player played below their average teamed with Rose. And Rose and Rasho were death warmed over together.

[SequSpur]

Seriously, It would be amazing to see some better players around Duncan, especially in the post.

[SequSpur]

Sequ, of all the threads, this one should be the most humbling for you. Your last post, though, was appropriate for this thread.

Thanks Solid. I really appreciate it from you man.

Thanks.

[MI21]

Seriously, It would be amazing to see some better players around Duncan, especially in the post.

Where are good players going to post up on offense, with Duncan also posting?

Please don't say on the other side.

[picnroll]

Seriously, It would be amazing to see some better players around Duncan, especially in the post.

1999 - David Robinson. Seemed to work pretty well.

[whottt]

I think when you go down the columns it's pretty obvious why Horry beat out Malik and why Malik needed to be dumped to reclaim the salary. Every single played at or above their average teamed with Horry. Every single player played below their average teamed with Rose. And Rose and Rasho were death warmed over together.

That's a given that Horry beat Malik out because of his versatility and his ability to play off of great players...I never said otherwise.

But what you don't see there is that if you take away the great players...Guys like Malik and Devin are more capable of putting up huge numbers than guys like Barry and Horry....and that's why these injuries are killing us right now....they seem to play their best in ugly games...Everyone has their role and +/- isn't everything...they might not do a great job of making their teamates better...but that doesn't mean they can't win their one on one matchup, and their teamates are capable of lifting their games.

Bruce is a great example of that...If Bruce has a bad night...we are likely to get smoked...even though he doesn't really help elevate his teamtes game that much...

And we can't see Nazr's +/- either...I bet his are worse than Malik's.

[SequSpur]

MI21,

Pull out your Laker vs Spurs VHS tape from last years playoffs and get back to me.

Again, I think in terms of winning championships, not in terms of winning games during the regular season and making foreign countries proud of their fellow citizens making it in the NBA.

But yeah....... on the other side.