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che bene! bravisimo !
the good ol'CIA
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091104/...taly_cia_trial
Italian judge convicts 23 in CIA kidnap case
By COLLEEN BARRY, Associated Press Writer Colleen Barry, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 23 mins ago
MILAN – An Italian judge on Wednesday convicted 23 Americans in absentia of the 2003 kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric from a Milan street, in a landmark case involving the CIA's extraordinary rendition program in the war on terrorism.
Citing diplomatic immunity, Judge Oscar Magi told the Milan courtroom Wednesday that he was acquitting three other Americans.
Former Milan CIA station chief, Robert Seldon Lady, received eight years in prison. The other 22 convicted American defendants each received a five-year sentence.
The Americans, all but one identified by prosecutors as CIA agents, were tried in absentia as subsequent Italian governments refused or ignored prosecutors' extradition request.
In Washington, CIA spokesman George Little declined to comment on the convictions. He said, "The CIA has not commented on any of the allegations surrounding Abu Omar," the kidnapped man.
Lawyers for the 23 convicted Americans said they would appeal the convictions. The Americans remain fugitives from Italian justice and prosecutor Armando Spataro said he was considering asking the government to issue an international arrest warrant on the strength of the conviction. The government of Silvio Berlusconi, a close ally of President George W. Bush, has previously refused.
Magi said he was acquitting five Italian defendants because an Italian high court ruled key evidence inadmissible as classified. Two of the Italian defendants were convicted as accomplices to kidnapping and received three-year sentences.
The verdict "sends a strong signal of the crimes committed by the CIA in Europe," said Joanne Mariner of Human Rights Watch. The crimes were "unacceptable and unjustified," said Mariner, who was in the courtroom for the verdict at the end of the nearly 3-year-long trial.
The Americans were accused of kidnapping Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr, also known as Abu Omar, on Feb. 17, 2003, in Milan, then transferring him to U.S. bases in Italy and Germany. He was then moved to Egypt, where he says he was tortured. He has since been released, but has not been permitted to leave Egypt to attend the trial.
The trial is the first by any government over the CIA's extraordinary rendition program, which transferred suspects overseas for interrogation. Human rights advocates charge that renditions were the CIA's way to outsource the torture of prisoners to countries where it is permitted.
The Milan proceedings have been a sore spot in relations between the United States and Italy. The CIA has declined to comment on the case, and Italy's government has denied involvement.
Among the Americans acquitted was Jeffrey Castelli, a former Rome CIA station chief, who prosecutors had alleged coordinated the abduction. The two other acquitted Americans were also assigned to the U.S. Embassy in the Italian capital and thus were covered by broad diplomatic immunity.
The trial continued despite obstacles that threatened to derail it, including Rome's refusal to cooperate with prosecutors.
In addition, Italy's highest court ruled some key evidence inadmissible because it is considered classified — including dossiers seized from the Rome apartment of an Italian intelligence agent and the testimony of a carabinieri officer allegedly at the scene of the kidnapping. That ruling was cited in the acquittal of the main Italian defendants, including the former head of military intelligence.
The government's will to enforce the verdict against the Americans, however, is unlikely to be tested any time soon. Sentences in Italy aren't served until all appeals are exhausted, a process that can take years.
The court also ruled that those convicted must pay 1 million euros to the Egyptian in damages and 500,000 euros to his wife.
Last edited by nkdlunch; 11-04-2009 at 02:55 PM.
che bene! bravisimo !
I'm not too crazy about trials in absentia, but can understand why it happened.
So, they basically tried and convicted people who they will never incarcerate.
Yeah, way to go Italy. Anymore of your taxpayer's money you want to waste? Ive got this sweet island right on the...
Remember Polanski?
The principle (remember those?) is extremely important.
The Great American People would feel equally violated if Italian CIA took people off the US streets, without judicial warrants, and sent them to foreign countries to be tortured.
The difference is, we wouldn't try them in absentia. That's a principle too.
The operation to capture Abu Omar was part of the CIA's extraordinary rendition program, according to U.S. intelligence officials involved in his transfer. The kidnapped cleric was held in Egypt for four years and says he was repeatedly tortured there by Egyptian interrogators.
He was never charged with a crime and ultimately set free. He remains in Alexandria, Egypt.
"He was the wrong guy," said Baer. "It was not worth putting the reputation of the United Sates on the line going after somebody like this."
The kidnapping was discovered and linked to the CIA by Italian authorities due to "sloppy" tradecraft, according to U.S. officials. Much of the evidence used in the trial involved cellphone records of the CIA team assembled to take Abu Omar.
"They were using e-mail, they were calling home, the Italians were able to connect their credit cards with true names and true addresses," said former CIA officer Bob Baer.
"I did these same things under the Reagan administration," Baer told ABCNews.com "When we did a rendition, we did it in international waters. The Bush administration threw all caution to the wind."
It's the right thing to do and the US does it all the time.
As soon as one of these guys leaves the US, they can be extradited. Which basically forces them to stay in the US and away from the rest of the world.
Youre smart, so I am not going to say youre wrong, but...
When was the last time the United States tried and convicted someone in absentia?
I dont even think we did that for Osama bin Laden, and if it wasnt done then, well, I cant think of another.
Yes, but he wasnt tried in absentia, he was standing trial while on bail and as soon as it became clear he was going to lose, he bolted (iirc).
Point being: never say never.
I never did say "never". The US doesnt try people in absentia, to my knowledge (thats without looking it up, mind you). Polanski being a guy who fled the country while in the closing stages of his trial.
The two cases (Italians trying the CIA agents vs the US trying Polanski) are not the same.
No, the US does not have trials in absentia. However, I'm sure the defendants in this case were given plenty of time to show up. If they are afraid of Italy's system, perhaps they could provide written testimony to demonstrate their innocence to the world.
This is exactly the reason why a lot of countires hate the US. It's that y at ude that US leader officials express, thinking that UN laws don't apply to US agencies. How would we like it if Spain/France all of a sudden start kidnapping and torturing our citizens(your fun lovable Arab/Indian store owner who sells you after hour beer), then all of a sudden, "my bad, they're not Alqueada". We would be out looking for justice.
aka, US "exceptionalism".
US does whatever the it wants, but no other country better try to do the same, esp if it's a non-Euro and/or non-Christian and/or non-white country.
Last edited by boutons_deux; 11-05-2009 at 02:41 PM.
You're right in that the US does not convict in absentia.
However, what I was responding to was the 'they'll never incarcerate' part.
The US does exactly the same as Italy did in this case, which is to put a capture request with Interpol. As soon as one of these guys steps on a country with an extradition treaty with Italy, they're screwed.
have you ever heard the term "making a point"?
Saddam Hussein: Guilty as charged
Osama Bin Laden: Guilty as charged
Manuel Noriega: Guilty as charged
etc, etc, etc
Hussein: tried in Iraqi Court, not in absentia
Saddam Hussein: Guilty as charged
Osama Bin Laden: Guilty as charged
Manuel Noriega: Guilty as charged
etc, etc, etc
Bin Laden: to my knowledge, has never been on trial, therefore cannot be convicted.
Noriega: ditto
This is an argument about being tried in absentia, which to my knowledge, is not practiced by the American government.
@velik_m
Ahhh, now I see the point you were making. I thought you were saying I was wrong that America has never tried someone in absentia, but you were asserting the "never to be incarcerated" to be wrong.
Which, in retrospect, is true.
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