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I noticed this too.... good take Solid...
Team USA led by George Karl and Gregg Popovich in Indianapolis in 2002 was a failure. Their 1-on-1 or 2-man game and street ball style of play that works in the NBA was ineffective in the World Championships. This was partly because of a lack of team chemistry and familiarity compared with the National Teams of Argentina, Germany, and champion Yugoslavia (Serbia & Montenegro). The USA team used a style of play that didn't work when officiated with FIBA refs and where ball movement rules the day. The Americans repeatedly succombed to backdoor cuts for layups and spacing problems created in the passing game and continuous movement of the other NTs. They got schooled.
The Spurs now face a team that is playing well together but who also plays George Karl basketball. It thrives on working matchups, with isolations and then passing out of doubles or collapses, and crashing the boards. It is uptempo but it is more street than 5-man basketball. It is a style that flourishes with a Sam Cassell or Andre Miller creating, but it is a fairly low-assist style of play.
The Spurs can beat this style of play with it's current cast but only through a passing game and stronger perimeter ball pressure on D. The 4-down and 2-man game slowed the tempo, but the Spurs didn't execute for scores. They will likely have trouble again unless they change to more of a motion approach. Not every officiating crew will allow all the grabbing off the ball like they did in game 1.
They should not allow the Nuggets to home-in on a predictable hub 'n spoke offense or it will be more of the same. Keep it moving pop, FIBA style, get some easy buckets and then get them back on D. Don't you remember, that style worked on your team in Indy?
I noticed this too.... good take Solid...
Very good post. These Nuggets can be beat. They really don't have a go-to scorer. Bowen seems like he can have success versus Carmelo. The rest of the Spurs just have to step up defensively.
On offense, Duncan will need to have it going and Manu and Parker are going to have to be taking it to the rim.
They can do this.
Believe.
I wouldn't worry too much if I were a Spurs fan.
Yes, Denver won last night, but they won playing scrappy basketball, and not with their tried and true gameplan. Carmelo had a poor night offensively, and it took a great performance by Andre Miller and some hustle plays to win the game.
Does anyone really expect Andre Miller to average 31 pts per game throughout the series? I think not. If the Spurs can just muster some better offense, I think they'll be OK.
Solid D, the resounding voice of reason, good post man
What are the chances of Pop running a motion, FIBA, Princeton or whatever else when Tim is on the floor? Tim is the first option on nearly every possession. Pop is addicted to that, even when a hurt Tim can't perform.
What about the backourt pushing the ball up the floor, to try some transition offense and easy baskets the way the Suns do, rather than always wait for the defense to get set, and butt heads on the half-court?
There are lot of offensive tactics besides 4-down, set-piece half-court battles that the Spurs could do, but they mostly don't.
And even when I see Pop inidcating to speed up the tempo, it rarely happens because the Spurs seem to be imprisoned in Pop's system.
I'll be interesting to see how that "3 hour film session" by the Spurs on Monday impacts the offensive and defensive strategy in game 2. If you hear things like, "we just need to execute better or pay attention to detail and take care of the ball"...danger, danger, danger. That may not be enough "attention to detail" strategy-wise.
^Loser.
Spurs will take it, if they had hit some free throws and Tim made 2 of the baskets, we'd be up 1-0. Sometimes it don't go in, sometimes it do. That's how it rolls.
ahhh... the master of Solid disaster
Solid D,
Isn't that pretty much another way of saying "less four down, more motion?"
The problem is the half court post up Tim bull offense is Pop's security blanket, and he goes to it every time he gets scared in the playoffs.
This team is unguardable running a motion offense, too bad Pop can't figure it out.
The first post is categorically false. The Nuggets do not play an isolation style game. They are one of the better passing teams in basketball.
Lets look at this quote:
but it is a fairly low-assist style of play.
Karl coached the Nuggets for the final 40 regular season games. During that time the Nuggets averaged 25.4 assists per game.
The top assist team in basketball, the Kings, averaged 24.5 a game for the year. Karl's first real practice stint with the team happened during the all star break. (he took over on a road trip)
After the break, the Nuggets averaged over 26 assists per game.
All of this isn't related to just running the basketball.
You guys played solid defense last night. We didn't move the ball well and you held our transition game in check perfectly.
So let me answer your question. . . how many times is Dre going to go for 31? He won't do it again in the series. And you'll probably win the series. But it won't be because Denver is a "low assist" team, it'll be because you MAKE us a low assist team, something you have the capability of doing to anyone. (the Spurs have the lowest number of assists against them of any team. . . for a reason)
FIBA sucks.
Yo Troy, go look up how many assists Denver had last night and get back to me.
Thanks.
Aggie, I think that's what Troy is referring to. Denver had a lot amount of assists last night, due to San Antonio's defense. It's also related to what I referred to, in that Andre Miller uncharacteristically took a lot of shots last night. Those two reasons alone should give Spurs fans some confidence, in that the Nuggets won, but they didn't dictate the style of play in the game (i.e., they didn't win going with their first and second options)
Troy is right. SolidD is saying that IN GENERAL the Nuggets play a low-assist style of basketball. And since Karl took over, they actually don't. SolidD's premise is off.
Whoops, my bad. I was sitting in a hotel room here the bustling metropolis of Victoria, TX with three whiny, ornery Dallas Maverick loving co-workers.
You'd think someone just kicked their dog. Twice.
The "low-assist style" was not an accurate statement. I should have referred to the style as backcourt distributor style of play. I'll retract that terminology. The offense relies on a high % of assists coming from Miller and Boykins in the backcourt.
The rest of the my premise about George Karl's use of isos and 2-man is not false. Spread, lift and iso is a staple.
But even that part is off Solid. The Nuggets actually rely on ball movement, and a TON of it. Miller and Boykins did have some big assist games the second half of the season, but there were games when the team had 35 assists with the leader having 6 or 7. We had games where we had TEN players with two or more assists.
And the ISO thing is simply wrong. The Nuggets don't play a ton of ISO. They'll play a little pick and roll with Dre/Melo. They'll certainly put Melo on the block, but that's about the only player on the team that consistently gets the ball in the post.
There really isn't a lot of ISO play. It's a motion offense. And when it's working, it looks a lot like Phoenix minus the three point shooting. A ton of ball movement, four or five guys touching the ball each possession and people moving. Karl said the Nuggets biggest problem the other night was not making the extra pass. . . the one this team has continually made the second half of the season.
A little back story on the Nuggets offense for those interested:
When Karl took over, he felt the Nuggets had too many ball stoppers. He told the guys in practice that he wouldn't be an X's and O's coach, he'd let them play, as long as they did ONE thing for him in practice. The rule was no Nugget could hold the ball for over three seconds. You get it in your hands, you have three seconds to shoot or pass. The style very quickly worked it's way into the real games. This team is a great passing team and it isn't just the PG's.
You'll only see it in spurts this series because of how dominant your D is. But if you watch a Nugget game on tape from earlier in the year, you are going to see your entire premise, both with the low assists and the ISO is false.
Whoops, my bad. I was sitting in a hotel room here the bustling metropolis of Victoria, TX with three whiny, ornery Dallas Maverick loving co-workers.
You'd think someone just kicked their dog. Twice.
I love your defense. I'd rather have a running team and play 80's style basketball myself, but your defense is something special. The entire team working as one, it's an awesome site to see. The Nuggets can play that way in spurts, but not for 48 minutes. The positive thing is they usually play that style in the fourth quarter. If you are only going to do it for one quarter. . .
As for the Mavs. . . OUCH
So is it time to throw a zone at Denver? They only took 6 3s in game 1, and one was Miller's half-court heave. Ignore that one and they shot 2-5 from 3. A good percentage (for 3s), but it shows they don't do it much. I think a zone would slow down their offense and certainly keep Miller from abusing Parker with his strength. I'd a lot rather face the problem of Wesley Person from deep than Miller from 5 feet.
I'll watch the games along with you from here on out and see what unfolds in the playoffs. I haven't seen Denver play in as many games as you Troy or some of the other Denver fans. I know what George did with Seattle and Milwaukee and, of course, Team USA. I watched the game Sunday and the replay of the game yesterday and in a fairly high percentage of the plays Denver ran, they lifted their bigs to the perimeter and went from there. One frequent example: D. Johnson/Miller in corner, Melo/Person wing, Camby top, KMart either high post or side screener, Miller or Boykins iso'd to work in space triple-threat or 2-man game screen/roll.
They did use some double screens and some motion that looks like 4-out, 1-in, but it was more NBA style of spread the floor with not much motion to it until the guard created action with a shot or dribble penetration. When the Spurs zoned them a few times, the Nuggets used a fairly standard zone offense with the bigs high/low.
Maybe they play differently in games I haven't seen. We can compare notes as this thing progresses, game by game.
My primary focus was how to beat Karl's Nuggets offensively, from the Spurs perspective. Less hub and spoke and more motion for the SPURS.
Last edited by Solid D; 04-26-2005 at 08:15 AM.
Manu didn't seem to have any trouble beating Karl when his coach wasn't Pop...come to think of it...he didn't have any trouble beating Pop either....or Duncan, or Carmello, or Kmart...
I agree let's do this the FIBA way...let's make Pop an assistant for the Nuggets.
Solid D is never wrong.
How does that saying go? "I thought I was wrong once...but I was mistaken."
First,
USA 2002, played different than USA 2004. In fact with the exception of the final place the 2002 was better, and they lost because the lack of good post players ( Sorry but Ben Wallace, and J. O'Neal played horrible ).
When you face something like this (Denver tough defense ) it is quite difficult so say that you will fix the things playing FIBA style. First, in FIBA you won't be allowed to play that holding, elbowing, pushing game, so a team playing like Denver will be left without players in 10 minutes. So FIBA do not give anything for this.
Anyway, what FIBA use is a lot of ball movement, and zone defense. Zone defense is good for stoping dominant players and specially for dominant players in the low post. San Antonio is good in one on one and our internals are better than Denver's. So the defensive solution is that Parker start moving his butt and shut Miller. With respect to ball motion, that's another issue, San Antonio should move the ball more in the Flex style, that is what they have used early in the season. The only problem is that you have to have decent shooters for that task and in defense one on one is not that easy. By the way Flex, was invented by Hubie Brown, and basketball is basketball.
So, move the ball and fight, .
Gus
Last edited by gus; 04-26-2005 at 10:21 AM.
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