Question about our offense

[Amuseddaysleeper]

OK guys, so you know how obviously Pop and Rc dont want to have a team where its just run a 4 down or 5 down and dump it into duncan while everyone watches, they want players that can shoot and hit the open jumper to surround TD with. but yet when we get these shooters who are meant to be deadly shooters on paper, they seem to fizzle out when they get here (IE barry + hedo shooting wise). but when you look at hedo turkoglu this past season i'd like to believe that he had a great season and played upto potential with the magic. so my question is where is the line crossed between blaming the players for poor shooting and then blaming our offensive system for not allowing these offense long range shooters to flourish? is it the offensive system or is it the players? cuz sometimes its feels like even if we got larry bird in his prime on this team, he'd end up shooting 31% somehow cuz there's something about this team that does that to players who are meant to be good on paper. thoughts?

[rr2418]

Good question! I don't know the answer! But, let me tell you that in football you can see the difference in offensive systems, teams that like to pass alot, and teams that like to run the ball, and of course teams that like to keep a balance to their offense. But in basketball, at times, it seems that every team runs the same type of plays, just different names for them. All teams run pick n rolls. All teams run four corners. All teams dump the ball to their big guys at some point in the game. So.....that's why I don't know the answer. With that being said, maybe in Pop's system, more pressure is placed on the shooters to make their open jumpers, so that there could be room for Duncan to work. Maybe in "other" systems, it's more of a "if you're open, let 'em fly" type offense.

[ALVAREZ6]

Basically, all you need to know is that our offense sucks ass.

[Que Gee]

OK guys, so you know how obviously Pop and Rc dont want to have a team where its just run a 4 down or 5 down and dump it into duncan while everyone watches, they want players that can shoot and hit the open jumper to surround TD with. but yet when we get these shooters who are meant to be deadly shooters on paper, they seem to fizzle out when they get here (IE barry + hedo shooting wise). but when you look at hedo turkoglu this past season i'd like to believe that he had a great season and played upto potential with the magic. so my question is where is the line crossed between blaming the players for poor shooting and then blaming our offensive system for not allowing these offense long range shooters to flourish? is it the offensive system or is it the players? cuz sometimes its feels like even if we got larry bird in his prime on this team, he'd end up shooting 31% somehow cuz there's something about this team that does that to players who are meant to be good on paper. thoughts?

I find it odd, that there is obsessive ripping on Barry, Hedo, etc...and less paid attention to this topic...which I think is the bigger issue.

[gospursgojas]

Good question...I would think with Tim, our shooters would get easier looks, thus better shooting %. Maybe Hedo in Orlando and Barry in Seattle got more looks instead of better looks.

[Rick Von Braun]

Good question...I would think with Tim, our shooters would get easier looks, thus better shooting %. Maybe Hedo in Orlando and Barry in Seattle got more looks instead of better looks.

Bingo!

Our offense is very static, the Spurs don't move the ball, nor move without it. I understand what's going on from a player point of view. If you are spending your energy moving and fighting for positions to get free, you would like to receive the ball from time to time. If you are doing it for the 5th consecutive offensive posesion without getting the ball... well you stop doing it (if I am not going to receive the ball, I will just stop running like a moron). This is perfectly understandable and it also saves energy, but creates a very static offensive game.

It all starts with the plays Pop calls, and the offensive excecution of our PG. It is too late now, but I would have run practices where a player cannot dribble or hold the ball for more than 2 seconds, and all 5 players need to touch the ball at least once per possesion. That would create more bonding between players, better passing, more knowledge about individual tendencies, etc, etc. I wonder if the Spurs do any drill like this during practice.

4-down or pick&roll between Tony and Tim are not bad plays, but they should be used a certain percentage of the time, preferably less than 100%. There are other plays as well that involve moving w/o the ball and getting the rock from time to time (moving without purpose is useless).

[Kori Ellis]

I'm not answering the original poster's question. But just FYI, 4-down isn't run as much as Spurs fans believe it is -- only 10-20% of the time -- even less than that during the regular season. The Spurs also run pick-and-rolls, a variety of motion plays, and other plays.

[Kori Ellis]

It is too late now, but I would have run practices where a player cannot dribble or hold the ball for more than 2 seconds, and all 5 players need to touch the ball at least once per possesion. That would create more bonding between players, better passing, more knowledge about individual tendencies, etc, etc. I wonder if the Spurs do any drill like this during practice.

Yes they do -- that's why I used it when I coached LJ's summer league team. Almost every NBA teams does.

[orhe]

i haven't really seen much motion play lately...
is it just me?

[texbumTHElife]

I noticed something in the last two game that was missing that had always been a staple of Spurs offenses since David Robinson was here. We would almost always put someone on the corner on the same side TD or DRob are posting up so that they have a quick kick out. In turn this also makes Seattle defend the whole floor and opens up the backside (with good ball movement) big time. I think we need to get back to this. Let Duncan kick it to the corner to Bowen and let Bowen shoot or let the ball cycle around to Barry.

Any one else notice we stopped doing this?

[Rick Von Braun]

i haven't really seen much motion play lately...
is it just me?

The Spurs run lots of pick&roll, mostly between Tony and Tim and some with Manu and Tim. Sometimes, Tim gets the ball after the pick and roll, and if the defense collapses, he waits, so the play degenerates into a 4-down in practice. They also run classic 4-down with a lob pass to Tim.

I consider pick&roll a two-man game, NOT motion offense. Look at what happens to the other 3 players when Tony and Tim run it... they are just standing in the perimeter with appropriate spacing but doing nothing. Motion offense involves at least 3-4 players and involves passing to dynamic positions, people moving, cutting, etc., not just people standing around in the perimeter.

[texbumTHElife]

I think our main problem on offense is just an overall lack of aggression.

[LakerGod]

Stupid "defense first" mentality that popazit has inflicted on his players, this is one of the main reasons the spurs are painful to watch because they are one boring team!

[ALVAREZ6]

this is one of the main reasons the spurs are painful to watch because they are one boring team!

They're just about the most exciting team, especially on a good night.

You enjoy watching all those eastern conference teams? Huh? How bout them lakers?

The only FUN thing about watching the Lakers play is watching Jack Nicholson ing on the court.

[LakerGod]

Liar! The Suns and Mavs are exciting to watch not the spursies!

[cherylsteele]

Basically, all you need to know is that our offense sucks ass.

Now there is some constructive criticism

[cherylsteele]

Stupid "defense first" mentality that popazit has inflicted on his players, this is one of the main reasons the spurs are painful to watch because they are one boring team!

And that is why they are competetive even when players get hurt or traded.....Unlike the Lakers.

[LakerGod]

And that is why they are competetive even when players get hurt or traded.....Unlike the Lakers.

And that is why they are going to get eliminated by yet another lower seed because popazit has no player who can shoot the ball on a consistent basis!

[LakerGod]

And how you dare to compare the Laker greatness to the pitiful spurs franchise?

[cherylsteele]

And how you dare to compare the Laker greatness to the pitiful spurs franchise?

At least we don't have a version to "As The World Turns".......
BTW...you brought up the comparisons....not me.

[ballhog]

This team has so many streaky players--save for Duncan. Why don't they do the inside-out thing a little more? They need the guards to hit shots on a consistent basis. Duncan's getting his--but all the other guys get out of the flow of the game. When they can't hit shots, their defense starts to suck it up.
They need a guy out there who can make a person like Ray Allen work on defense a little---Bowen ain't scaring anyone.

[LakerGod]

I haven't seen the boxscore but how many points did Bowen score last night?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I haven't seen the boxscore but how many points did Bowen score last night?

against kobe? Bowen had 24 points and kobe only managed 17

[Que Gee]

This is from Charley Rosen on Fox Sports-

Make no mistake, however, San Antonio did not lose Game 4 (as they did Game 3). Seattle won it with hustle, energy and daring the Spurs to beat them from the perimeter — a challenge which San Antonio refused to accept.

For sure, Duncan's 35 points dominated the paint, but it was this very dominance which closed the lane and foreclosed too many of the Spurs' other offensive tools. In the end, Nate McMillian's game plan was better than Gregg Popovich's. In fact, McMillian took full advantage of Pop's legendary stubbornness.

Let's see how (and, indeed, if) Pop can make appropriate adjustments. Otherwise, the Spurs will once again go down to a quiet defeat in Game 5.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The reason all those guys can't find their range is they don't get any easy looks to warm up their stroke with.

We don't run any plays that get guys like Barry or Big Dog layups - just send them out there, tell them to go stand in the corner or out top, and expect them to be automatic.

Even the great shooters in this league, guys like Ray Allen, Michael Redd, etc., they get themselves a few easy buckets (generally layups or short range jumpers), and then get hot from everywhere.

None of our "gunners" get that benefit in the Spurs offense. The only ones who do are Tony and Manu. The rest are designated campers outside the arc.

It's one of the more maddening things about our offense, particularly in the playoffs - we've got to be lucky enough to have two guys get hot from outside for it to work.

It's stupid, and low percentage playoff basketball offense.

You want Brent Barry to warm up? Run him some pick and rolls to get him going to the bucket. Lift everyone up high and back pick his man so he springs clear for an easy layup, like that, to get his confidence going.

Same thing for Glenn. Seattle likes to switch on their pick and roll. Work him and his man in with a guard, and end up with Glenn posting up a smaller guard in the post. He'll get hot in a hurry doing that.

The other thing about our offense right now is that I don't think Tony is doing a very good job distributing the ball. When he drives into the lane (which is pretty rare these days too) he never looks to kick out, just tries to finish. That's not going to work for someone his size, and that's not what makes our offense click.

And finally, we have this whole "throw it into Duncan and wait for the double team" thing going on all the time.

There's two problems with that:

1. By it's very nature when you run the offense like that guys are going to stand around. You're *waiting* on the defense to move on Duncan. It's a reactive offense, when you should be *attacking* them. It's prone to failure, both physically but also mentally you're telling your guys to react to the defense instead of attack it.

2. Seattle knows this, and they are using the exact same thing on defense that LA befuddled us with for years on end: wait til' Duncan puts it on the floor. He's methodical in his movements, which has a tendency to produce turnovers or bad shots by Duncan. By waiting, the shot clock is also clicking down, leaving less time for Duncan to do his thing and even less time for us to move the ball around the perimeter or find another man for a better shot.

And Kori's right, they don't run 4down too much anymore. Duncan's playing more center, so it's called 5down