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they couldn't shoot worth in the 50s and 60s
Here's a bit of history, career rebound averages:
Full list: http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._g_career.html
Rank Player RPG
1. Wilt Chamberlain* 22.89
2. Bill Russell* 22.45
3. Bob Pet * 16.22
4. Jerry Lucas* 15.61
5. Nate Thurmond* 15.00
6. Wes Unseld* 13.99
7. Walt Bellamy* 13.65
8. Dave Cowens* 13.63
9. Elgin Baylor* 13.55
10. Dennis Rodman 13.12
Most of the leaders are oldtimers! Lots of reasons why, what do you think?
Most of those leaders were NBA top 10 players 30-40 years ago. Jerry Lucas is a strange case. Primarily a forward, he out rebounded center and teammate Nate Thurmond in 1970-71.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SFW/1971.html
Lucas was NY Knicks center in 1971-72 filling in for Willis Reed. He was an outside shot specialist and dragged opposing centers away from the basket on offense so fewer rebounds. His averages dipped when Reed returned next two years, but also he was declining. Perhaps Lucas and Bob Pettet could teach Hakeem, Shaq, Dwight and Tim a few things....
Active (Or recent players if you add Rodman) are all much lower on the list. Dwight, Tim, and Shaq follow Dennis. This seems to be a selling point for at least Tim and Shaq to threaten to be included in top 10 all time.
Opinions?
they couldn't shoot worth in the 50s and 60s
That's part of it. Fast breaks and run and gun offenses lead to more rebounds. Also, Wilt could toss up a shot and miss, and tip it 2-3 times, getting a rebound for each tap. However, the number of forwards on the overall list is interesting, no matter what generation they are from.
The obmission on the list is Shaq - with his size and all world athletiscm for that massive size (for years) he should of been able to block anyone and get 15 a night for at least one year.
Basketball reference doesn't have all the "pace factor" stats of teams way back then and doesn't show all of the "total rebounding %" for players back then either. But you can look at each of those rebounding leaders who played back in the 1960s and 70s and the seasons in which they have their best rebounding stats, their teams were routinely putting up 115-120 PPG and those players were routinely playing 42-45 MPG. Definitely skews the stats. Look at a guy like Duncan, and in his best rebounding season (12.9 RPG), the Spurs were averaging 95.8 PPG. In Dwight's best rebounding season (13.9 RPG), the Magic averaged 101 PPG. So the pace factor is definitely something to consider.
You add that to the fact that, as mentioned, a lot of shots were missed (look at some of those early Russell Celtics teams and most of the team had FG percentages in the 30% range. Add to that back in the 60s and 70s, there were not only fewer really big and athletic 7 footers in the league, not only to compete with but on the same team, and you understand the gawdy rebounding numbers. I think that especially holds true for Chamberlain and Russell. They weren't only rarely challenged by opponents, but they were by far the main rebounder on their own teams. If they had "total rebounding %" stats back then, I wouldn't be surprised if Wilt and Russell got somewhere over 33% of their teams' rebounds. Whereas great rebounders in the post 1980 NBA would bring down somewhere near 20% of their teams' rebounds.
Look at their per 36 minute stats, with the exceptions of Wilt and Russell, most of the other leaders from the older era were putting up 12-15 rebounds per 36 minutes. Dwight Howard puts up 12.8 rebounds per 36 minutes. Rodman put up 14.9 rebounds per 36 minutes for his career. It shows the disparity and difference among eras.
I could argue that Dennis Rodman, for his size and era in which he played, was the best rebounder out of anyone on the list, including Wilt and Russell.
Jammy, I wholeheartedly agree re Rodzilla. He was the best rebounder I've ever seen. I would put Ben Wallace below him, however he was great for his size as well.
Now, the pace factor is huge, not too mention the lack of 1-12 athleticism the NBA possesses nowadays. Wilt had 55 rebounds in one game...what are teams averaging now for rebounds...40-45 per game.
Anything less than 20 rebounds per game would be pathetic for Wilt and Russell. Two athletic 7 foot tall black guys should be able to average 30 RPG against a league full of 6'5" honkies.
JamStone...
Regardless of what the numbers are, Rodman is probably the best rebounder in NBA history. The numbers he put up for his size and in an era of great big men are pretty ridiculous.
Ironically, the fat man never led the league in rebounding or blocked shots......
Rodman's in a class by himself when it comes to rebounding. I heard he relentlessly watched tape of every player in the league to see how their shots missed, e.g., if they went left, right, if they were too long, too short, etc.
My thoughts are that Charles Barkley is the shortest man on the list in the top 20 for the NBA list. What a rebounding machine.
- RPG is an extremely flawed stat, mostly for the pace reasons, as Jam mentioned, and also because it doesn't account for the rest of the rebounders on the player's team..
- Rebound Rate has proven to be by far the best statistic for measuring rebounds..the rankings for rebounding rate:
1. Rodman
2. Chamberlain(using an accurate estimate)
3. Russell
4. Howard
5. M. Malone
6. Larry Smith
7. Mutombo
8. Ben Wallace
9. Chris Dudley
10. Camby
11. Duncan
Using rebound rate, a much more accurate measure due to the adjustments for pace/teammates, you see a lot of modern players move up on the list and in the top 20..
- Russell and Chamberlain are historic rebounders in every possible rate that is measured..
- Moses Malone is overrated as a rebounder..his numbers are high due to his offensive rebounding, and many people have talked about how he inflated his numbers by purposely missing shots at times, so he can increase his offensive rebounding numbers..
- Rodman is statistically the best rebounder of all-time, and he might even be by any way you measure it, but he's overrated IMO..Rodman was known to sacrifice defensive possessions and rotations to chase rebounds during his last years in Chicago..
Also, unlike most of the other guys on the list, Rodman is the only guy that can be considered a role player..Worm's career usage % is 11, which is much, much lower than most of the other guys on the list..his only responsibility was as a rebounder and man defender, he did not have the responsibilities of all the other guys..if you switched roles, I'm sure that you would see a difference..it takes a lot more energy to play the role of the other guys IMO..
Whew... Thankfully the list went to eleven.
Obviously I had to stretch the list a little..
The best rebounder of the past 30 years.
also the craziest mofo in the past 30 years
Well, then the fact that Russell shot 44% from the field beign a bigmen, should be a factor to not include him in the top 10 all time list.
Different eras, different kind of stats.
Where's Barkley?
those old numbers are all vastly skewed.
the fact that Dr.J -a 6'7 wing player- averaged 15 rpg his rookie year should tell you that something is off...
haha, if a prime Shaq was teleported back to 1968 he would have averaged 75 points and 48 rebounds per game hahha.
put bill russell in todays game and he'd put up 12 and 8 hahahahhahahaha.
& Kobe wouldn't a ratted him out & robbed his $.
Not even 12 PPG. Russell in modern day NBA is a taller Ben Wallace.
Jamstone's right, pace is everything. Duncan averaged over 18 field goal attempts one time in his career. Wilt averaged between 23 and 39 the first nine years of his career. The Spurs averaged about 77 field goal attempts per game in 2002. The first Russell championship team averaged 102.
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