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I just don't get what idiot gave Bin Laden that code name and why? It was pretty ing stupid. They just associate a guy who is a hero to a lot of native Americans with Bin Laden and I can't figure out why they were so stupid.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...ers_blast.html
Onondaga Nation Territory -- Leaders of the Onondaga Nation blasted as “reprehensible” the code name used for Osama bin Laden in the commando assault that killed him: “Geronimo.”
“We’ve ID’d Geronimo,” U.S. forces reported by radio Sunday to the White House. Later, word came that “Geronimo” was dead.
Geronimo was an Apache leader in the 19th century who spent many years fighting the Mexican and U.S. armies until his surrender in 1886.
“Think of the outcry if they had used any other ethnic group’s hero,” the Onondaga Council of Chiefs said in a release Tuesday. “Geronimo bravely and heroically defended his homeland and his people, eventually surrendering and living out the rest of his days peacefully, if in captivity.”
“Geronimo is arguably the most recognized Native American name in the world,” the chiefs said, “and this comparison only serves to perpetuate negative stereotypes about our people.”
See coverage of bin Laden's death in stories, videos and photos.
The chiefs said the incident revived memories of New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s remark last year that Gov. David Paterson should “get yourself a cowboy hat and a shotgun” to deal with Indian affairs.
“It’s typical,” said Onondaga Tadodaho Sid Hill, the nation's spiritual leader. He said Geronimo was a hero to American Indians and it was incomprehensible that “they use him to identify a man like Osama Bin Laden.”
“Why would that be honorable to us?” he asked.
“All they know is just cowboys and Indians, the stuff they saw on TV.”
Hill said he had higher hopes for President Obama, who he said was adopted by the Blackfoot tribe during the 2008 election campaign. “Nobody seems to be able to see our side."
Loretta Tuell, staff director and chief counsel for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, had a similar same reaction.
“These inappropriate uses of Native American icons and cultures are prevalent throughout our society, and the impacts to Native and non-Native children are devastating,” Tuell said.
Tuell is a member of the Nez Perce tribe and grew on the tribe’s reservation in Idaho.
Steven Newcomb, a columnist for the weekly newspaper Indian Country Today, criticized what he called a disrespectful use of a name revered by many Native Americans.
“Apparently, having an African-American president in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States,” Newcomb wrote.
“It’s frustrating,” said Hill. “We just can’t let this slide again.”
I just don't get what idiot gave Bin Laden that code name and why? It was pretty ing stupid. They just associate a guy who is a hero to a lot of native Americans with Bin Laden and I can't figure out why they were so stupid.
how about:
"TheMonsterTheUSACreated" ?
Geronimo is a very stupid code name, but maybe that's how stupid "intelligence" is. It does express in-your-face-ly America's Imperial predations.
I understand the symbolic use, as Geronimo would have been on the same level as OBL as far as US war propaganda goes...but after the dust settles, and one or two brain cells start to work, you realize that Geronimo was coming from a completely different place than mass murdering OBL.
It's embarrasing and I don't blame the Native American community for being angry about it. I for one would not be opposed to them putting down there alcohol, sobering up, and using their advanced laser technology to take back their land. Just sayin.
Honestly, I doubt they were very concerned about possible PR. They just needed a recognizable word/name for him. Here's how it probably happened:
"What's a good codename for Osama?"
"Uhm... Geronimo?"
"Sure, that works. Ok guys, the codename for Osama is "Geronimo"."
It's not like they have PR guys going through all the mission logs determining what is and isn't PC.
I get what you're saying LNG, but why didn't anyone think MLK was a good code name? Was it because of good PR or common sense?
C'mon LnGrrrR, it would have been more PC to call him "shark bait" than Geronimo. It's a totally dumb idea, even dumber if it was the first thing they could come up with that stuck. Poor form, target naming dudes.
Well, Geronimo has a more "militaristic" feel. For instance, the people who jump out of planes in the movies who shout "Geronimo!!!" aren't probably intending for the jump to be symbolic of anything Geronimo actually did.
"Shark bait" would've been a poor callsign... sounds too similar to common words. But yes, it was admittedly poor form; however, I'm pretty sure that whoever came up with the name was probably thinking about things they considered more important, like practicing the op for the 500th time that day.
Dude, they code named OBL Geronimo. Jumping out of a plane and yelling it is actually an honoring of the name. Naming a guy who once he's dead your country is going to throw a big ass party Geronimo is not even close to the same thing.
No doubt that they thought it more important, but thats kind of the point. The Native Americans might be tired of being ed over - even if just verbally - by the American government, don't you think?"Shark bait" would've been a poor callsign... sounds too similar to common words. But yes, it was admittedly poor form; however, I'm pretty sure that whoever came up with the name was probably thinking about things they considered more important, like practicing the op for the 500th time that day.
Should have gone with "Trump."
I understand that. I just don't think the comparison occurred to the people creating the mission. You can fault them for ignorance, sure. I just don't think it was something they seriously reviewed/thought about. (Which, obviously in hindsight, they should have.)
I doubt that the NAVY Seals are very PC. *shrug*
Probably. I think it's a bit tone-deaf to complain about this right now, but that's their prerogative.
lol tone death? Really?
lol...busted by the edit fairy.
i doubt whoever came up with that codename knew who geronimo was
LNG, its not tone deaf, its that no one will ever care. You mean if they waited a month and complained then they'd get a different response? Look at the le of this thread. Its a joke to most people, but it doesn't make it any less ed up.
Yes. It's not like children are going to run around saying, "Yay! I killed Geronimo!" and then start harboring an aggression towards Native American peoples. It's a codename, nothing more. The military has a ridiculous amount of codenames... for people, for operations, for missions, for projects, for networks, etc etc. To me, it is what it is; a clearly identifiable name in order to quickly transmit communication about a significant target, with no further symbolic meaning.
Others are free to think and argue otherwise.
Dude thats a strawman Darrin would be proud of. I'm pretty sure all their saying its yet another piece of disrespect piled on them by the American Government.
Then why complain about it publicly?
Is it "messed up"? Eh, to me, not unless it was done deliberately. Maybe it's messed up that people don't know enough about Geronimo to know that it's a poor callsign name to use.
And if they had waited, yes, I think it might have gotten more traction. Let the euphoria die down a bit, and then raise the issue. Right now, it's like they are that one person at the party who keeps reminding their friends that they have to take a test tomorrow. Sure, it's true, but no one wants to hear about it.
I'm just going by the comments made in the OP. What children are going to be impacted by this codename? Does said columnist really think that the admittedly poor taste of this codename really means that the govt still views Indians as enemies of the US?“These inappropriate uses of Native American icons and cultures are prevalent throughout our society, and the impacts to Native and non-Native children are devastating,” Tuell said.
Tuell is a member of the Nez Perce tribe and grew on the tribe’s reservation in Idaho.
Steven Newcomb, a columnist for the weekly newspaper Indian Country Today, criticized what he called a disrespectful use of a name revered by many Native Americans.
“Apparently, having an African-American president in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States,” Newcomb wrote.
http://www.electronicbookreview.com/.../desublimationI do admire thinkers like Giorgio Agamben, with his theory of sacer, which is a much more refined analysis.
See Giorgio Agamben, Sacer: Sovereign Power and Bare Life (Stanford University Press, 1998). 6 Agamben's basic insight is the following one: We have two apparently opposed tendencies today. On the one hand, we have so-called biopolitics, that is to say, more and more our lives are controlled through state mechanisms, whatever, all these theories articulated by Foucault and later by Agamben. On the other hand, we have what right wingers usually refer to as a liberal, extreme narcissism, this "culture of complaint," or, "culture of victimization." You know, where whatever you do -like, I look at you now and [smacks his hand on the table] ha, ha, ha, rape already or harassment - is construed as oppressive. Incidentally, the only way to react to excessive political correctness, I claim, is propagating dirty jokes.
Dirty jokes are ambiguous. On the one hand, of course, I'm well aware they can be racist, sexist, and so on. On the other hand, I hate the term "African-Americans." I prefer black, and they do too. I think African-American as a term is the worst example of apparent political correctness. My best example of this was in Minneapolis, one of the capitals of political correctness [chuckles]. On TV, I saw a debate involving Native Americans, and they referred to themselves as "Indians," and this white, PC liberal said, "No, no, no, don't use that colonialist term. You are Native Americans." And at the end, one of the poor Indians exploded. He said, "Sorry, I hate that term! Please, give me at least the right to call myself what I want. `Native American' means that you're making me a part of nature! You are reducing me! What's the opposite of nature? It's culture! You Europeans are culture, then you have horses and us, `Native Americans,' here, with foxes or whatever." So whenever I meet blacks in this kind of situation, I immediately try to break these racist barriers. And what's my measure that we truly broke the barrier? Ok, at one level it's political correctness, but it's absolutely clear that if you play this game, only politically correct terms and ooooh, this fake interest, "ooooh, how interesting, your culture, what a wealth," and blah, blah, blah, it will backfire. Blacks confess to me that they secretly despise this kind of white liberalism. What's the trick? Humor. It's a kind of dialectical double reversal. And this is when they really admit you. That somehow you can return to the worst starting point, racist jokes and so on, but they function no longer as racist, but as a kind of obscene solidarity. To give you an extremely vulgar example, I met a big, black guy, and when we became friends, I went into it like, [assuming a naïve, awe-filled whisper] "Is it true that you have, you know [makes gesture signifying a gigantic penis]?" and (this is a racist myth I heard in Europe) "Is it true that you blacks can control your muscles so that when you walk with a half erection and there is a fly here you can BAM! [slaps thigh] snap it with your penis?" We became terribly close friends! Now, I'm well aware of how risky these waters are, because if you do it in the wrong context, in the wrong way, I'm well aware that this is racism.
What bothers me about so-called tolerance is that, if you combine tolerance with opposition to harassment, what do you get? You get tolerance that effectively functions as its opposite. Tolerance means we should tolerate each other, which practically means that we shouldn't harass each other, which means I tolerate you on the condition that you don't get too close to me! [chuckles]. Because, often, the fear beneath harassment is one of proximity. Don't get too close to me, emotionally or physically. We have here, again, the same chocolate-laxative logic, the Other yes, but not too close, deprived of its substance.
I don't think these two levels are opposed. One the one hand, the state wants to control you via biopolitics, and, on the other hand, the state allows this extreme narcissism. I think they are two sides of the same coin. Both have in common this logic of pure - how should I put it? biopolitical levels, pure life, pleasures, sensitivity, whatever. Simply falling back to this old position of "oooh, we are returning to fascism, and so on" doesn't work. And while I despise so-called fundamentalists, we should not knock, or buy too simply, this liberal opposition between us, good liberal guys, versus them, bad fundamentalists. The first counterargument that I mentioned is "Wait a minute; are these really fundamentalists?" It's an affront to fundamentalism to call people like Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart [chuckles] fundamentalists. I had once a conversation with my good friend, one of the last Marxist dinosaurs, Fred Jameson, who told me, "True fundamentalists are people like the army theologians who were against the Vietnam War." In Israel, it's the same. As all my Jewish friends are telling me, it's not some stupid, fanatic rabbis in Jerusalem versus tolerant Tel Aviv. Tel Aviv is worse, if anything! In Tel Aviv, you know, it's ethnically cleansed. There are almost no Palestinians. So, the most radical proponents of dialogue with the Palestinians are some very orthodox Jewish theologians.
Because it pisses them off?? Since when do people need much of a reason to complain. Its not like they want everyone to be ignorant of it. You don't think people would complain if they used MLK as his call sign?
Equating Geronimo to Bin Laden is ed up whether or not it was done out of ignorance. I don't get to walk into the hood and start calling everyone a ###### and then plead ignorance.
Is it "messed up"? Eh, to me, not unless it was done deliberately. Maybe it's messed up that people don't know enough about Geronimo to know that it's a poor callsign name to use.
Awww, they're party poopersAnd if they had waited, yes, I think it might have gotten more traction. Let the euphoria die down a bit, and then raise the issue. Right now, it's like they are that one person at the party who keeps reminding their friends that they have to take a test tomorrow. Sure, it's true, but no one wants to hear about it.. I don't think you understand what Geronimo means to a lot of natives.
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