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The game has changed so much that the center itself is a lost art. Power forwards can do the work of the center.
Unless someone is grossly huge and cannot operate outside the paint, there's no need for a dominant center.
serious basketball discussion you guys
So I've been thinking how our most "dominant" center today is a guy with virtually no offensive game besides throwing it down or weak hook shots and Howard has been for quite awhile now.
With Yao Ming guaranteed to never get the chance again and the 2nd best center in the NBA being up for debate (Bogut? Bynum? Noah? Duncan? Cousins perhaps? Too bad Oden will always be injured), do you think/when do you think we'll see another center who can anchor a defense and dominate whoever is defending him? Let's face it, if Howard had the post game of Tim Duncan, Orlando may have a le by now. He is a monster on defense but it really seems like working in the post, practicing your footwork down there, or just generally not being a and shooting jumpers on the perimeter seems like a lost art these days.
I don't follow NCAA or Euroleague (lol greece), so for those of you that do, is there any prospect who looks like he could take the reigns of best center in the league in the future? I can't be the only one who is tired of watching Dwight Howard win DPOY year after year while getting sucked off as the best and most dominant center in the league.
The game has changed so much that the center itself is a lost art. Power forwards can do the work of the center.
Unless someone is grossly huge and cannot operate outside the paint, there's no need for a dominant center.
Enes Kanter is the only up and coming guy that I can think of that has any legit chance at being the next great center.
If I had to choose anybody, I would say Oden
One thought about Howard, the talk of him having a post game is ridiculous. He has the hands of a blacksmith and while he's athletic he has no fluidity in his moves, they're too mechanical and forced. He's not a natural back to the basket player and never will have a Duncan or Olajuwon type post game.
And potentially the next great center is Andre Drummond. I don't see anyone currently in the NBA or someone who was just drafted being a dominant center, Drummond has all the physical ability needed and already has a lot of tools at his disposal.
Depends on how you define "great". If you are talking about the next Shaq or Wilt, then it might not happen for a long time, but there are some talented centers coming up like JONAS VALANČIŪNAS. I haven't seen him play hardly at all, but from what I have seen, he looks to be a solid prospect.
Dwight, for all of his knocks, is still a great player. When you are that impactful on defense and can still score at such a high clip against NBA level defense that is solely focused on you, you are doing something right.
^
This. Dwight is not your prototypical post player on offense but he's still a great center. His defense changes the game and he's so athletically gifted that he can score 25-30/night regardless of his lack of post moves.
If you were starting a team from scratch, he'd be the 1st or 2nd guy taken, imho.
Definitely. While it's not a beautiful thing or fluid, like DOK said, it's still very effective and he has shown considerable improvement from a diversification stand point on offense. By far, his weakest skill is passing. If he could work on that, it would help tremendously and it would help him really make the leap into the truly elite category.
Last edited by DPG21920; 08-07-2011 at 02:23 PM.
Pretty much. Shaq was not a good passer early on in his career either, but he really came into his own under Phil and developed into a great passer--an aspect of his game that I still think goes underrated. 1999-2002 Shaq was the most dominant force in the NBA that I've seen in my lifetime. Could've been even longer had he kept in shape.
That's a good point, he's terrible at reading where the double team is coming from and passing out of it, but a lot of players (like Dirk) take years to develop that skill.
I also think how muscular he is hurts him on offense. When you get as big as he did so quickly it basically destroys whatever finesse or touch you had.
Bingo
A dying breed, like the SG position.
Drummond is probably the best center prospect since Oden, and is compared a lot to Amare Stoudemire because of his length and athleticism. He has legit center size though (however, he's not the shotblocker Amare was at that age). Here's a mixtape of Drummond
Two things the mixtape doesn't show are: (1) Drummond is a really good passer in the halfcourt (2) Drummond can get lazy and play down to compe ion.
Isaiah Austin (I think nephew of Ike Austin) is an interesting prospect who has been pegged at the 5 by a lot of people (I don't see him at the C myself), and I think he's already 7' after his junior year. He'll be at Baylor year after next.
Baylor is where top tier talent goes to die.
Bogut is a really good center, just hope he can stay healthy for several years in a row to reach his potential.
Five years from now Valanciunas will be a top3 center in NBA. Book it imho.
I think there's an argument for Andrew Bynum. As weak as the center position is in the league right now, Bynum has the size and scoring ability that shows as much promise as any other center in the league. Getting consistent touches behind Kobe and Pau has been tough and he's not in the caliber of great centers of the past yet, but I don't really see many other young centers with more promise.
Bogut is a top 5 center in the league. I think he's really good. But next to who are considered really great centers, he pales in comparison. There are a few young guys who may end up being pretty good centers. Oden if he can ever stay healthy. I like JaVale McGee's size and athleticism but he's far from being even a good center just yet. Someone mentioned Joakim Noah. If he learned a consistent post game, I would put him in the discussion. I think Brook Lopez disappointed this past season. His rebounding became inexcusable for a 7 footer. And he regressed overall.
It's really tough to say. There really aren't a lot of young players or even prospects you look at the way you looked at Shaq or Hakeem or Ewing and said it's all but a guarantee that they'll be really good players in the NBA. There just aren't those kinds of centers in the game anymore.
Drummond plays on half a tank. Insane talent, but not the heart needed to be consistently great. Could be wrong, but I've seen him play down too often vs. players he should be scoring 40 on without a second thought to think it's just going to flip and always be on.
To be honest, I liked Andrew Bynum more as a HS prospect. Better size, strength and he played hard more often. Not the elite athleticism, though, and Drummond is damn good around the basket, so, with the right college coach (Calhoun makes a ton of sense to me), he could have the fire lit and the skills developed to become great.
Austin is a 7-footer who fancies himself as a perimeter player ala Garnett. We'll see. I like his at ude beyond that. Good agility. Not the offensive game yet of Garnett. Closer to a more polished Tyson Chandler or Marcus Camby at the moment.
I was disappointed Drummond didn't try to graduate this year. He really needs to get his ass kicked a bit by a good college coach, and I fear he'll go straight to the NBA after graduating next year. The fact that he still hasn't picked a college yet really makes me think he'll go that route though. I really hope he doesn't end up another Eddy Curry. It's frustrating to watch him go invisible for stretches of games that he should be dominating on both sides of the floor.
Speaking of bigs, have you seen much of Nerlens Noel? He looks like an intriguing defensive prospect.
I agree with Jamstone, but obviously Bynum's health is a concern along with his at ude. He has a lot of talent on both ends, but his injuries may have already stripped some of his athleticism.
Like I said, it depends on how you define great. If it's in the context of today's talents, then there could be a few, but if you are comparing to all time greats, it seems like there are a few Amare-like players coming up and that's not exactly considered great in my book. That is very good though.
I have heard that the new CBA will more than likely have a two-year rule, so not sure that will happen, but it could. I'm really struggling to find a good comparison of Drummond. Your comparison to Curry is pretty good. Way more athletic, but just as likely to go below his averages than above them. If Drummond goes to Connecticut or Georgetown, he'll do better. If he goes to NC, I'm not sure... Ol' Roy is too friendly, I think. Pitino and Louisville makes some sense as well. Not sure about K and Duke.
You are correct, though. He needs to stop being treated with kid gloves and start getting screamed at and benched. If his pride kicks in and he responds, he'll be a force. Size, Strength and athleticism are all at elite/close-enough levels to really make an impact on the offensive end and on the boards. I've never seen anything that suggests he'll be an elite shot-blocker. I don't think he has the timing aspect down. Maybe footwork can improve, but probably only marginally.
His problem is same as Kwame Brown's... he's long been the biggest, strongest, and often times, most athletic player on the court, and never needed to play "up" at all times to succeed. These types typically develop bad habits that are seldom remedied. I mean, we just mentioned Curry, Chandler, Brown... both similar. Derrick Favors is as well. Cousins is unique because I don't think he plays hard, but plays angry, which works until it derails.
Drummond definitely needs a coach who's going to hold him accountable and put immense pressure on him. Without it he'll have a rather listless Chris Wilcox-type of career and never really make an impact.
Has Jamstone posted in this thread? Jose and I mentioned Bynum...
HS just is too easy for big men. Half their stats come against players physically inferior and incapable of competing. One player I can speak as an authority on is Angelo Chol. He's an Arizona Wildcat incoming freshman from San Diego. He recently just set the state record for blocks, and finished his high school career with totals in the top-5 all-time nationally. At 6-9, 220 pounds he's not so big and strong that he's overly imposing, but he's a very good athlete, so that helps a lot. However, his wingspan is ridiculous, and close to 90% of his high school games he was pitted against 6-6 and under types where he was essentially superhuman with everything factored in.Like I said, it depends on how you define great. If it's in the context of today's talents, then there could be a few, but if you are comparing to all time greats, it seems like there are a few Amare-like players coming up and that's not exactly considered great in my book. That is very good though.
Now, Chol plays hard, so it stands to reason that he should improve as he progresses through college, but how many bigs just figure they can do enough by doing the bare minimum? Way too many. Even in the AAU seasons when they are finally matched up against other elite bigs, so little attention is paid to defense that nothing done is a true indication of their potential.
With the new generation of Amare-types, it leads to 6-9+ players who are thrilled to score 30 and content to grab 8 rebounds and who thinks good defense is 2+ blocks per game. The impact overall is still, as you put it, very good, and I would agree that it's tough to label a player "great" overall when your world-class athlete PF is merely pulling down 8-9 rebounds a game. The tough thing about bringing Amare into this is he worked his ass off to develop an offensive game that rivals many of the modern greats, which is one of the primary concerns about most of the potentially "great" centers like Howard, Bynum or Oden... these three have the rebounds, blocks and defense down, but they can't seem to become that foundational player that can carry a team like Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson or Shaq.
The concern is just as much offensive development as it is defensive, it's just some bizarro indictment where nobody can seemingly put it all together and nobody quite knows why. In cases like Drummond it is pretty obvious it's an issue of motivation and challenge. Problem is, in HS, he's not challenged enough, and therefore isn't motivated, and the coaches aren't holding him accountable. What are they gonna do, bench the #1 player in the country/in the tournament/on their team?
I think Drummond is a much better player than Curry though, so that gives me some hope for him. Curry seemed like he was just a dunker and the guy always had weight problems. Drummond at least knows how to pass the ball and can put it on the floor a bit. The release on his jumper is really low though; it's definitely not an NBA shot. I always have doubts about guys who are just dunkers even if they throw up huge stats after seeing BJ Mullens crash and burn. With HS kids it's always such a crapshoot.
As for Kwame, do you think MJ broke him, or was he destined for spectacular failure? It always cracks me up to go back to the nbadraft.net page for him and see him listed as a 109 on a scale where 100 is often a #1 pick.
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/kwame-brown
No one capable of cracking the top ten of Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Malone, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, O'Neal, Duncan and Howard.
Two are capable of being in the next ten: Bynum and Oden. Bynum is the only current center not named Howard with the potential to perennially average 20 ppg, 10 rpg, 2 bpg. Oden, even if healthy and with further development, I can't see as a 20 ppg scorer, but I could see him challenging Howard for the rebounding/shot blocking les and the DPOY award.
If Bynum maintains or exceeds his play from the second half of last season next season and Duncan further declines, he could surpass him as the second best center in the league. But right now, it's still Duncan. Don't let a six game sample size against a bad match-up fool you.
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