Reply With QuoteYeah, we'll see.
Hard not to like an 86 year old woman.
...and Yoni's not gonna like it...
CBS NesLast week, on 60 Minutes, we heard for the first time the full story from a Texas politician, former Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes, who says he helped President George Bush get a highly coveted place in the National Guard.
60 Minutes also presented do ents for the first time which indicated that once Mr. Bush was accepted into the Guard, he failed to live up to the requirements of his service, including following an order. And we also reported that the do ents were written by Lt. Bush's National Guard squad commander, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who passed away in 1984.
In the past week, those do ents have been subjected to extraordinary scrutiny and criticism.
Now, another voice - a credible voice - has entered the debate. Killian's secretary, Marian Carr Knox, describes herself as Killian's "right hand" during much of the 1970s.
She flew to New York Wednesday afternoon to tell 60 Minutes that she believes the do ents we obtained are not authentic.
But there's yet another confusing twist to this story. She told Correspondent Dan Rather that she believes what the do ents actually say is exactly as we reported.
Knox is 86 years old, and completely comfortable in the eye of a storm. Now, she wants to set the record straight about the memos that CBS News obtained.
Knox says she didn’t type these memos, but she says she did type ones that contained the same information.
“I know that I didn’t type them," says Knox. "However, the information in those is correct.”
Knox says the information in the four memos that CBS obtained is very familiar, but she doesn't believe the memos are authentic. She does, however, remember Killian being upset over Mr. Bush's failure to take a physical.
“Did or did not Lt. Bush take a physical as ordered by Col. Killian,” Rather asks Knox.
“The last time, no he didn’t,” says Knox. “It was a big no-no to not follow orders. And I can’t remember anyone refusing to. Now for instance, with the physical, every officer knew that before his birthday he was supposed to have that flying physical. Once in a while they might be late, but there would be a good excuse for it and let the commander know and try to set up a date for a make-up. If they did not take that physical, they were off flying status until they did.”
Did Knox ever hear Killian talk about this, or did he write memos about Bush not taking the physical?
“He was upset about it. That was one of the reasons why he wrote a memo directing him to go take the physical,” says Knox. “I’m going to say this, but it seems to me that Bush felt that he was above reproach.”
Knox remembers Lt. Bush well, and saw him often as he showed up for weekend training in 1971 and 1972.
“He was always very gentlemanly. He called me by the name of his father’s secretary. He was always apologizing about that,” recalls Knox. “He couldn’t remember my name. I felt that his parents must have been wonderful to have produced somebody as nice as that.”
But did Lt. Bush get into the National Guard on the basis of preferential treatment?
“I'm going to say that he did,” says Knox. “I feel that he did, because there were a lot other boys in there in the same way."
So what kind of officer was Lt. Bush?
“Bush seemed to be having a good time. He didn't seem to be having any problem with the other pilots,” says Knox. “But, his time there, it seemed that the other fellows were, I’m going to say this, sort of resentful of him because of his at ude … that he really didn’t have to go by the rules.”
Knox says that Killian started what she calls a "cover-your-back" file -- a personal file where he stored the memos about the problems with Mr. Bush's performance, his failure to take a physical, and the pressure Killian felt from upstairs.
She addressed one memo, and a reference to retired Gen. Staudt pushing for a positive officer training report on Lt. Bush.
"’Staudt is pushing to sugar coat it.’ Does that sound like Col. Killian? Is that the way it felt,” Rather asked Knox.
“That's absolutely the way he felt about that," says Knox.
She also talked about another memo which she doesn’t believe is authentic -- but she says the facts behind it are very real.
“It's just like a personal journal,” says Knox. “You write things. It was more or less that.”
“These memos were not memos that you typed, and you don’t think they came directly out of his files,” Rather asked Knox.
“The information, yes,” says Knox. “It seems that somebody did see those memos, and then tried to reproduce and maybe changed them enough so that he wouldn’t get in trouble over it.”
Knox says the fact that then-Lt. Bush was repeatedly missing drills was not lost on his fellow pilots.
“They missed him. It was sort of gossip around there, and they'd [the other officers would] snicker and so forth about what he was getting away with,” says Knox. “I guess there was even a resentment."
She told 60 Minutes again and again that she believed Lt. Bush refused a direct order to take a physical.
“Col. Killian’s son says that this isn’t true,” says Rather.
"He has no way of knowing whether that is true or not," says Knox.
In 1972, Knox says that, for Lt. Bush, working in a senate campaign became more important than flying for the Guard.
"I think it is plain and simple. Bush didn't think that he had to go by the rules that others did,” says Knox.
"He had this campaign to take care of, and that's what he was going to do -- and that's what he did do.”
60 Minutes will continue to aggressively investigate the story of President Bush's service in the National Guard -- and the story of the do ents and memos in Col. Killian's file.
Are those do ents authentic, as experts consulted by CBS News continue to maintain? Or were they forgeries or re-creations, as Knox and many others believe?
We will keep an open mind and we will continue to report credible evidence and responsible points of view as we try to answer the questions raised about the authenticity of the do ents.
Having said that, 60 Minutes feels that it's important to underscore this point: Those who have criticized aspects of our story have never criticized the major thrust of our report -- that George Bush received preferential treatment to get into the National Guard, and once accepted, failed to satisfy the requirements of his service. If we uncover any information to the contrary, that information will also be reported.
The old lady...
Killian's son testimony :gun
As I've been saying all along, its the content, stupid! and the Republicans have played right into it!
The whole nation is watching!
Maybe the old lady will....ummm have an accident before tomarrow night?
Yeah, we'll see.
Hard not to like an 86 year old woman.
Well, this has already been discussed, but I'll give my piece again...
Assuming the 86-year old Democrat is the best source on this issue, at worst, it proves what most people already accept: George W. Bush has led a life of priviledge and preferential treatment, even at a young age. I doubt most people needed a National Guard Crisis to assume that. The problem for those of you who continue to perpetuate this story is that NOBODY CARES. It's pretty much accepted that most politicians have had strings pulled for them in their lives.
The likelihood that there was a coordinated effort to forge do ents to cast a negative shadow on a candidate for President is a much more disturbing issue. Frankly, the National Guard story is peripheral now.
How convenient. I notice she didn't pull any do ents out of her purse either."'He has no way of knowing whether that is true or not,' says Knox."
5 years to investigate this and they lead with forgeries and a liar (Ben Barnes). Never thought to interview the Commander's secretary?
sorry, I don't buy it. The public might...but, they've already decided they don't care.
I think Rather is toast either way.
Been watching the polls Nbadanallah?
MOAB? Are you kidding me? How much are you banking on this hurting Bush? This is far from vindication for Rather and CBS. A lot of it is subjective and speculation...on Bush's Guard Service. There's only so much damage that can be done in that regard, and I don't think it's going to be NEARLY enough for Senator Kerry.
[/Nbadan]
I really think the forgery issue will be much more entertaining for everyone.
I can't wait to see the polls after CBS drops this mother of all bombs tomorrow night. Forget the testimony of Killian's son, this lady's testimony just toasts that, , she ought to know she was there!
I can see Rush and Insanity working all night to dig up some dirt up on the 86 year old lady!
The Dan's are toast! :p
Spurm, I concur with you sir. That is the bottom line as described in your reply.
Rack Tommy...funny stuff.
Why are you so stupid? Is it heredity? Learned behavior?
I've given up on this being a rather convincing parody of a nutjob poster.
Wasn't it just last week that Sperminatar was apathetic about politics and W? Now he's the authority about how indifferent people feel about their leaders?
What a joke.
I also find it interesting that we should pay heed to a report by a news organization which cannot ascertain the fact that the 30 year old do ents they used to base their report on were written in MS Word.
Or that we should pay attention to a report that features a major Kerry fundraiser who has changed his story.
Or whose network procured said do ents from an individual with some rather questionable motives.
Or the fact that the basic claims brought forth by the report were already floated in the 2000 campaign.
Or that every sane person who has looked at those do ents usually finds themselves laughing.
And so on.
"Fake but accurate" is the standard of weirdo crazy ers who no doubt are banished by their families to live out their days in the attic.
If you really want Kerry to win you better pray to go that the Bush National Guards crap disappears quickly. And I don't mean the fake docs flap.
For what it's worth, Killian's son is disputing the secretary's version of events on Hannity & Colmes. He said that she was a pool secretary, not Killian's personal assistant, and she "wouldn't have insight into that situation."
"I think that they're in way over their heads."
"That's what I find so de able about this whole thing, that they would use my deceased father (for political purposes)..."
Before I retire for the evening, I would like to point out that...
NO ONE ING CARES.
Figure it out.
Temper temper Dan!
But I ask again, do you really feel this is a 'MOAB'? You think we Republicans really got snookered? Really? This is going to sink Bush in the Polls? Really?
But Tommy, people DO care about his service record, they care about his service record from 2001 to 2004.
A few things that weren't mentioned: Mrs. Knox's opinion that Bush is "unfit for office" and that he was "selected, not elected"; Killian's son's assertion that Mrs. Knox was a pool typist, not his father's personal secretary and thus not privy to the "facts" in this case; or the fact that Killian's son and wife were allegedly both interviewed by 60 Minutes before the original report aired last week and yet somehow their clips didn't make it into the segment. Rather did ask Knox what she thought of Killian's son saying that the memos don't reflect his father's opinion. Her response: "He has no way of knowing if it's true or not." Good enough for Do ent Dan!
Rathergate has more, and says Knox looked coached.
UPDATE: Several readers have e-mailed me an article from today's Houston Chronicle with a very interesting tidbit of information about Knox. This didn't come up either during the interview; think it might be relevant?
Last week, Knox said she had no firsthand knowledge of Bush's time with the Texas Air National Guard, although she did recall a culture of special treatment for the sons of prominent people, such as Bush and others.
Tonight she said she remembered Bush well and described him as "nice" and "gentlemanly", and prone to forgetting her name. A truly spectacular feat of memory recovery for an 86-year-old, don't you think? Kudos, Mrs. Knox.
In response to the question of whether Bush received preferential treatment in the TANG, Knox said she "feels" that he did. Much the way Allah "feels" that this CBS story is one big ing set-up.
Hey, Dan's not the one on trial here! If Knox is right, Rather said, the public "won't hear about it from a spokesman. They'll learn it from me." But he also delivered a message to "our journalistic compe ors," including The Washington Post and rival networks: "Instead of asking President Bush and his staff questions about what is true and not true about the president's military service, they ask me questions: 'How do you know this and that about the do ents?'"
Because Bush is a draft dodger, the rest of the media should give Rather a pass on his ty journalism. Unbelievable.
It was a marvelous plan for who ever concocted it. Feed them into a major news organization and have their weight carry the story forward. Post a message on a freeper site, because they always fall for crap like this, that the do ents may be fake, even though there is no way to ever prove whether they are or not in the long run...Ween the people in with a frenzy over talk of fake do ents...and
pow!
Drop the big gun on National T.V. before the rabid audience!
I couldn't have come up with a better plan myself.
You've got the heart of a champion Dan, we can't take that away from you...
But this dog won't hunt, sorry man.
Dan,
No one cares. A whopping 27% of America thinks the do ents are valid.
64% think what Bush did in the Guard 30 years ago isn't important relevant to the presidential election.
If only 36% give a damn, and only 27% believe it, how is that gonna be the MOAB?
You liberals sure are stupid.
Isn't that what people were saying about the whole Swifty boat thing and look at how much mileage the Republican's got on those lies? Look at the size of the Rather do ents thread in this forum. No, no, people care and tomorrow night the democrats are gonna get a bump..
Look at it this way, CBS has been investigating these do ents, or at least. these allegations for 5 years. Don't you think they ever managed to talk to Ms. Knox in those 5 years? If they had written just another story about W's privileged upbringing then people would have been going ho--hum, but by introducing intrigue with the fake do ents, having the NeoCon spin-machine show their cards, as far as detractors (i.e. Killian's son), and then having the women not only confirm the content of the memo's, but attack her detractors at the same time, now that's hard to beat.
I'm curious to see how CBS handles this 'MOAB' in relation to Hurricane Ivan...
'Good morning, I'm so and so. Hurricane Ivan made landfall this morning around 2am... 2 casualties have been reported. Damage esti....THIS JUST IN! Killian's secretary speaks out! See we told you so!! This was legit from the beginning! Nanny nanny boo boo! Kerry's going to win! Kerry's going to win!
Another former Texas Air Guard officer has come forward and confirmed Killian's former secretaries story on CBS...
USA TodayAnother former Texas National Guard officer, Richard Via, also said that the do ents were fakes but that their content reflected questions about Bush that were discussed at the time in the hangar at Ellington Air Force Base, where he had a desk next to Killian's.
Via said he and others he worked with "remember the physical, and him going to Alabama was an issue." He said Killian "made notes and put them in his files about things like that."
Killian kept the files because "he was trying to cover his ass," Via said. "He was always worried something would come back on him."
He said Killian's secretary "would type them up, and he'd put it in his desk drawer and lock it."
more at www.usatoday.com, click on Election 2004, then click on "Secretary Says Memos Forgeries"....(notice the le)
Here is the damning video from CBS video archives
One thing that Ms Knox did mention that I had forgotten is that she confirmed that although those particular do ents were not typed by her, she did type similiar do ents. Acknowledging that similiar do ents probably did exist at one time.
Damning, just damning.
I think that Bush did have some strings pulled to get him in the Guard and I do believe that there are questions about his service but I don't think people care about that.
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