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So many 20 year old 1980s NBA experts here its hard to keep track of em all
Be able to even get their shot off in today's NBA, or even defend in today's NBA? Primarily before the 90's. Each decade you had a handful of quality players and a bunch of terrible athletes, each decade the talent pool getting better and bigger, ultimately in today's game every single position is extremely athletic and powerful thanks to new technology and the advancement of sports science. There are a load of factors as well which have affected the overall talent pool and quality of players throughout the years as well, don't know if I'll go into that. NBA players in general are much bigger and athletic now than they were 20 years ago, more athletic at each position.
Players use a variety of methods to get their shot off in the NBA, the ability to create space is extremely important. Space can be created numerous ways, but the most efficient and common way is using your body, because it's the easiest, and it's the hardest to stop. A bump sends the defender off balance, giving you a wide open shot, creation of space.
The bigger the defender, the more stability they have, the more stability, the less they're likely they're gonna move back, the more they can challenge your shot and cut off that separation. A player's weight/strength also affects rebounding, the ability to gain position in the post/paint, screens freeing up your player, basically a very large part of the game on both sides of the ball. Sometimes a player can just be too big to guard.
So, if a player such as Mark Aguirre, 6'6 232lbs, was banging through this '86 Lakers, relying on his strength, would he have the same success going through a modern NBA team?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1987.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2015.html
Note the massive size difference at each position. And even if they are the same size, they're probably not as athletic/explosive/strong. Schroeder is small but with modern technology he is extremely explosive.
Aguirre relied on being guarded by 6'8 212lb PF Kurt Rambis, who as you can see is glued to the floor lmao. Rambis wasn't athletic at all, he was weak, light, and would get destroyed by modern PF's. A 6'6 230lb man was rare back then, even a 6'0 180lb man was considered pretty big. You could get away with being 6'7 190lbs because everyone else around you was near the same size and had the same athleticism lol.
Why is that, haven't players always been lifting weights? Yes. Have they been lifting properly? No. The USA had very little knowledge about sports science, it was in Europe where they developed Eastern Bloc training. Which wasn't introduced until around the 70's in America, even then it took years in order for teams to start using these training methods, and now everybody does. It was not as widespread as it is now.
http://www.kylehuntfitness.com/easte...methodologies/
This occurred during the cold war, advancement in sports science sky rocketed. Many people were lifting weights but they weren't doing it properly, they had no idea how to properly develop, recover, or maximize their workouts. A former football coach helped introduce them in the 70's, I believe he was the father of that famous USC QB that choked (Marinovich). He helped introduce Eastern bloc training methods to the NFL, and just like the NBA, players transformed their bodies/skills with new workouts.
You get physically superior players, far more athletic, and since it's so widespread these days every position is athletic. Eastern bloc training methods helped revolutionize sports, and it's what most pre 90's teams failed to utilize.
If Aguirre was being guarded by 6'7 240lb Leonard instead of 6'8 212lb PF Rambis, he's getting his pushed in.
Btw, there are different bone structures/body frames/muscles/genetics that influence a player's skills, two 200lb bodies are not built the same if they are achieved through different methods of training.
So many 20 year old 1980s NBA experts here its hard to keep track of em all
such is life on SpursTalk
amirite
Oh indubitably
I see you didn't even bother to read anything about Eastern Bloc training. It introduced the USA to plyometrics, explosive training, proper rest, recovery, actual sports science that we didn't know about back then. The act of exploding in your workouts, building explosiveness, you are building lean fast twitch muscle fibers, these are plyometrics.
The NBA uses it to produce these modern explosive athletes:
Recovery was huge too, in order to gain strength/muscle you cannot over train, which is what many early athletes did, it was ineffective. These training methods revolutionized sports in America and throughout the world. Now everyone uses them.
it's like talking to that Stubborn old guy who think he's right...
If the hypothetical doesn't allow the training benefits of the modern day then they wouldn't be able to compete. There is a reason for the training.
Today's Athletes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>90s>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>60's
Ok so DeMonkey Jordan and Chimpbrook are great athletes who benefit from better training/nutrition etc
Does that make them better players? Does it mean they would have been great in the 80s/90s
no
If we really want to go into depth about it we can even start talking about the depth of talent in the old NBA which was a joke.
-Segregation in schools preventing many potential players from receiving proper training/coaching/equipment or even the ability to play bball. Civil Rights movement didn't end until '68 with the effects lingering for years.
-Popularity of basketball in school in general wasn't as high as it was now. Partially due to a salary increase which I'll cover...Player development programs were very few, basketball's popularity exploded in school sports in the 80's. Not only school sports but youth sports such as youth Basketball, which MILLIONS of American children are currently playing.
-Baseball/Boxing, two of America's most popular sports for nearly a century, boxing falling off in the 70's, Baseball not until the 90's, these sports soaked up a massive group of potential NBA talent. These days those athletes are now playing in the NFL/NBA, increasing the talent pool of elite athletes even more.
-European basketball/International basketball in general was in it's infancy as well as scouting, professional bball clubs would later be formed, and now we see teens turn professional playing among grown men, honing their games. The talent pool just increased with the billions of Euros/Asians.
-Increase in salary of NBA players. This would influence billions of children/parents/schools, because this is a potential job opportunity, and it made schools money $$$ with the attendance. The salary always affects the person's, or their parent's decision whether a that person should pursue that job professionally or steer towards a much more stable career as well.
http://hoopshype.com/articles/america_friedman.htm
Massive increase in basketball popularity didn't occur until the 80/90's with Jordan. This affected the average salary as you can see.
Average NBA salary by decade:
-1960 $12,000
-1970 $35,000
-1980 $180,000
-1990 $860,000
2014 $4.5 Million
Much more enticing than those previous figures.
Last edited by KL2; 02-07-2015 at 10:23 PM.
Ok so DeMonkey Jordan and Chimpbrook are great athletes who benefit from better training/nutrition etc
Does that make them better players? Does it mean they would have been great in the 80s/90s
no
Definitely not fundamentally, we've seen an increase in athleticism, but at the cost of the fundamentals of the game. Athleticism/Strength can get you in position, the rest is up to you, but having that size/athleticism makes it very easy. The fundamentals wouldn't really matter though because these guys would be like gods to many old NBA teams, just too much size/strength/skill.
Many people think of Bonner being slow and not athletic at all, but the reality is he's a 6'9 240lb man and he's insanely athletic, he looks like because he's surrounded by other insanely great athletes. Same with Duncan, even Perkins, Ayres, etc.
Bump..first page is full of garbage.
8000000 word novel to say that athletes are bigger and stronger nowadays..lol..I mean in lol
Kawhi Leonard is the perfect example of a player that has used plyometrics, explosive jump training workouts, in order to improve his game. It's why he's so good this year on both sides of the ball. He's much more faster laterally, he's shifting his feet much faster, moving his legs much faster, these are fast twitch muscle fibers built through eastern bloc training, explosive workouts. Because he's faster laterally he can push up on defenders, pressure them much more, get more steals without getting burned like he used to. He's also able to recover on defense faster, and compete for rebounds much better because of this. The difference is pretty obvious from last year and it's showing on the stat sheet.
Explosive training is how you develop an "explosive first step", it's in the name lol. It's achieved through doing explosive workouts, eastern bloc training. Some guys naturally have great genetics and have it, the majority don't.
It's what legendary trainer Jim Grover used to train Barkley, Jordan, Pippen, etc.
Antiquated fans don't like going into depth tbh, too much thinking.
Exactly, how else you present your points and arguments?
Example of a modern day 6'7 230lb+ SF using his body to create separation from body contact, his size.
Slight hip bump knocks 226lb Wade off balance with ease taking him out of the play, runs into 240lb Chris Bosh knocking him off balance with ease, body contact/control/stability allows him to create separation and finish. Both guys much bigger or the same size than many of the old NBA players. Leonard creates separation with ease, gains great post position, rebounding position, uses separation through this.
Leonard would've been guarded by guys much smaller, weaker, not nearly as explosive aside of a handful guys in the league. I'd love to see a 200lb SF from the 80's try to guard a 270lb guy like Lebron lmao.
pity post
6'8 212 PF, det body doe
I typically champion the modern game over the past game, since it's more than obvious that basketball has come a long way with regard to strategy, scheming, and theory, and the proliferation of advanced stats has helped tremendously in more accurately determining a player's worth, but this notion that past athletes (in any sport) were exponentially less athletic than modern "super" athletes is beyond re ed. Human beings don't magically evolve better athleticism over a generation (or even 10), and while sports science has "come a long way," the returns are still pretty marginal.
- A long jump mark set in 1968 is still the 2nd best of all-time, and the World Record (set by Mike Powell 24 years ago) hasn't even been sniffed by modern athletes.
- The High jump World Record has stood for 21 years.
- The Shot Put World Record has stood for 25 years.
- The top 10 400m hurdle times were all set in the 80's and 90's.
Sure, we have Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps today, but overall, modern athletes don't significantly outperform their past counterparts, if at all.
And to answer the question, yeah, a great player from the 80's would have no problem getting his shot off against modern players. Bird routinely busted Pippen's ass on the block, and he's one of the least athletic players of all-time going against one of the most athletic players of all-time. I love Kawhi, but his athleticism is garbage compared to Pippen's. In addition to that, McHale crucified the Dream in the '86 Finals, and Hakeem is one of the quickest and overall most athletic 7 footers of all-time, while McHale probably had a vertical under 2 feet.
Vertical leaps have also stagnated. Players don't jump any higher now than they did in the 60's. I remember Apalisoc making fun of the fact that Wilt's 28" standing vertical got a mention in a Sporting News article, citing it as "evidence," of the relatively poor athleticism players had back then. Funny enough, Wilt's standing vert would be the highest in today's league among 6'11" and taller players. Dwight Howard's standing vert is lower. As is Javale McGee's. Serge Ibaka's, etc, etc.
Now, I'm not suggesting sports science and medicine hasn't advanced, but the advancements have only produced very marginal gains. If you want to celebrate anything in today's game as far superior to the past, celebrate the increase in skill level. Once upon a time dribbling with your off hand was a feat. Now, it's a mandatory skill every player, even bigs, need to have.
Prime Tayshaun Prince was probably the best individual Lebron defender in the league, and held him significantly below his averages. And that was when Bron was at his freakish athletic peak.
Bron would go off, since 80's team defense was so bad, but not because 80's players were significantly outmatched athletically. They were thinner, though, since the prevailing mindset at the time was that too much muscle would affect your shot, stamina, etc.
Mid throwing haymakers to the body
The problem with some of mid's non-basketball examples is that it talks about general athletic ability. Strength training have marginally improved in the last 50 years, but explosiveness, Speed, and Vertical have all seen a significant improvement...
I showed him an example on how my friends 100m record would have probably made him a pro decades a ago...
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