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LMA should only be getting post-ups in near the rim like Boban was getting tonight. Turnaround jumpers from him are not going to cut it. To make matters worse he adds a stupid pump fake.
The spurs have managed to win enough games on pace to win 65+ this years thanks to Leonards rise to supers om, lockdown defense and a rejuvnated Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker. So even with these individual plays, what is causing the starters offense to stagnate?
- First and foremost the execution with the starters is piss poor and the biggest culprit is a change in personel. Parker-Leonard-Green-TD has played together without LMA for short stints and the execution was good..really good.
- So far in the season, Five particular sets/playcalls have contributed heavily in the starters offense Stagnating. Should these plays exist? At what point in the season should the team diminsh it or completely abolish it? I will attempt to rank them based on how it stagnates the offense and how often it os used.
1. Lamarcus Aldridge Post Ups - As I have pointed out a month ago, his post ups skills have diminshed significantly and is the worst run offense so far. Why does it rank first? Its inefficient, it works poorly with Green, Lamarcus forces the issue and a piss poor passer when hes on action.
2. When Danny is on the weakside leaving Parker and Leonard on the strongside - This results in the most cringworthy possesion of spurs history. Even the sixers run a more fluid offense when this happens. This happens in two instances, a failed pass to kawhi in the post or LMA passing up a wide open J. Green ends up intiating sets that or a two man game with TD or LMA.
the right decision is throw the ball out to Parker again and reset.
3. Tony and TD pick and Roll/pop. When your big isnt that much of a threat on the pop and your Guard is a step slower than he was the result is the easiest offense to defend. I know spursfans casuals vagina will bleed by me saying this though. The right move when the defense forces this action is to swing it to Leonard. This is probably the most turnover prone, even worse than Danny Green Dribbling.
4. Lack of offball motion. I put this fourth, mainly because the lack of motion is mainly a direct result of the personel and I doubt it will change. Parker and LMA usually struggle in motion based offense.
5. Kawhi post ups/ Isos- While I do think that it stagnates the offense at times, Kawhi is not prone to turnovers and the team is making 55% baskets.on these sets.
LMA should only be getting post-ups in near the rim like Boban was getting tonight. Turnaround jumpers from him are not going to cut it. To make matters worse he adds a stupid pump fake.
I would like to see the offense run through kawhi more often. Like you said, he rarely commits turnovers and has been assisting at a high percentage. He doesn't have to iso, but the ball needs to run through him a lot more. He should also stop getting so close to the basket on drives and then giving it up, resetting the play. Just go for a dunk or an acrobatic move, risk an offensive foul for once.
I dont get why pop runs pnr/p with lma and green, and parker and duncan. It should be parker and lma, LMA's pnp game is deadly not post-ups.
A post up play doesn't stagnate the offense per se, the issue is if nobody moves well around.
Kawhi and LMA create mismatches, getting double teamed, we have two genuine offensive threats, but the other three guys need to move without the ball, find their spots to generate open shots when LMA/Kawhi pass out of the post...
LMA/West should only post up midgets, otherwise it's a waste of the shot-clock/possession b/c LMA is going to throw it back to Danny & West is going to shoot an air ball.They feasted on Faried tonight though
lol you guys act like LMA can't post up at all.
ST groupthink strikes again.
Seems like Pop wants LMA/Danny on the same side of the floor by design & he wants LMA/Kawhi to be on opposite sides to stretch out the defense. LMA/Simmons work well together so it's Danny that's in' it up.
Porker is only allowed to run PnR w/ the 5 man (Tim or West).
Danny and LMA two man game
Danny is not ing up, he's being forced into something that he's not good at doing. He doesnt have the speed to threaten the big in the pnr so the sg can just stick to him. That's just not his game.Seems like Pop wants LMA/Danny on the same side of the floor by design & he wants LMA/Kawhi to be on opposite sides to stretch out the defense. LMA/Simmons work well together so it's Danny that's in' it up
Porker is only allowed to run PnR w/ the 5 man (Tim or West).
Parker can still run the pnr but not with Duncan. Nobody respects TD's jumper anymore, if we're talking strictly about the SL, he should be pnr/p'ing with LMA.
Some good observations Apo.
I also think you did a good job ranking them.
1. Agree that Lamarcus has been deficient posting up. He tries to draw fouls, but he doesn't bc he's not aggressive enough on them. Pop sometimes posts him up closer to the basket, and he's thrown a jump hook with mixed results. I feel like he's strong enough to bully some guys but he doesn't. It's probably not that he's "soft," since the guy is strong and he's big (some say fat, but no matter, he has bulk to throw around, that helps in the post).
I think his ballhandling is lacking, so he is not comfortable changing directions or pivoting. His post moves are not as nice as Diaw, Kawhi, Tim (he is really stiff at this point and slim so he's obviously not as effective posting up but he did use to have nice moves and occasionally will give us a throwback move), I'll even throw Anderson there (although he is a newbie and unproven player, and slim, he does have nice ballhandling which allows him to change directions, and he has flashed nice footwork, and a nice jumphook, and can pass out of it well too, but for Anderson, its just flashes, before someone goes crazy with my take).
The point is, I don't think Lamarcus is soft, but rather that he's not as skilled in the post as I have seen these other guys be. Not sure what Pop wants to do about this. Lamarcus is streaky and will be good out of post up situations sometimes.
The two man game between Danny and him rarely ends up in a quality shot for Green though and drains the shot clock, and leaves Danny to have to manufacture something and that is a Danny WEAKNESS. Maybe the two man game should be with Kawhi (what do you think?). Realistically, the LMA post up may be minimized, but it is not going away.
2. Agree with this completely. Occasionally Danny will be able to run a side PnR well enough. I don't want to discount the fact that Danny does get the occasional assist this way, but it is still very inefficient, runs the clock, may end up in a contested shot anyways, since he doesn't draw the defense, and LMA man closes him out, or Danny ends up with a contested shot at the basket (worst possible scenario for us). Basically nothing good comes out of it for a huge majority of the time.
3. I have my questions about TD PnR/Pop as well. It is fine in moderation, some teams are poor defending it still. When TD pops it's really not a threat so everyone clogs the paint, Tony doesn't have a shot at the rim, has to pass, the pass is predictable, etc. You might be onto something here.
4. Agree completely.
5. Agree on Kawhi iso. It stagnates, but he's incredibly efficient on them, and he's been passing out better when he doesn't have a good look at the basket.
That's is what I meant, Danny isn't a good fit w/ the current system b/c he can't run PnRs unlike Simmons. The current system values play-making guards over shooters since LMA can shoot unlike Tiago.
Tell that to this guy:Parker can still run the pnr but not with Duncan. Nobody respects TD's jumper anymore, if we're talking strictly about the SL, he should be pnr/p'ing with LMA.
Yup. Pop needs to allow leonard to run more pnr with the starters. Pop cant seem to realize his insitent with one ball handler in the starting lineup is killing his own offense.Seems like Pop wants LMA/Danny on the same side of the floor by design & he wants LMA/Kawhi to be on opposite sides to stretch out the defense. LMA/Simmons work well together so it's Danny that's in' it up
Porker is only allowed to run PnR w/ the 5 man (Tim or West).
Kawhi and LMA doing it on spots should open up opportunities for a struggling Green.
Pop is just being stubborn.
You have a good point, if Simmons could defend like Danny you could make a case for Pop switching things around even with Simmons lack of credible shooting. I think he'll shoot the 3 if he's open in the corner at least at 37% (I am hoping, and trusting his 3 pt shooting in the dleague was not a fluke and he's flashed he can make the shot in few attempts so far.) He is definitely a better cutter and passer. I think Pop really loves Simmons too, bc he has not only "promoted" him (well deserved too), but also lets him play through mistakes a whole lot without pulling him. He's in high esteem. I have been consistent expressing my doubts with Danny in the bench, but it could be an experiment. If it doesn't work, go right back to current SL and status quo and make other adjustments.That's is what I meant, Danny isn't a good fit w/ the current system b/c he can't run PnRs unlike Simmons. The current system values play-making guards over shooters since LMA can shoot unlike Tiago.
Tell that to this guy:
I think Pop is reluctant to bench Danny if the issue is systemic and can be fixed some other way. WE will see.
Considering the age of this team, you're not going to have your proverbial "cake and eat it too" with this squad, meaning the offense and defense won't be equally as good on most nights. Historically, elite defensive teams will have offensive struggles because of the energy you have to expend on the defensive end. This is why defensive minded teams tend to use more isolation in the post. When you have an elite defensive team (and it's possible this Spurs team can be historically good defensively), you want to slow the pace down and turn it into a half court affair.
For people wondering why the Spurs starters don't move off the ball more, that is why. No doubt some offensive sets are called to give Kawhi, Green, and even Parker a rest. When you see Kawhi standing around while LMA posts up, that is probably what's happening.
The offense could "look" prettier, but you're not going to be able to have a fluid motion offense and be able to play elite (top 2) defense at the same time. That said, the starting offense could be better, and I think the primary culprit is Danny Green.
Look what happens when you switch out Manu for Green:
http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/...EVIATION&dir=1
The NET RTG goes from 6.2 to 28.6.
Look at the other 5 man units. All of the weakest feature Danny Green (aside from the last one, which is probably just an anomaly).
Danny sucking is a direct result of the offense lack of movement. Its a tough decision to make for pop.
Consodering theyre on pace to win 65 games I dont expect the SL.to change. It might change in the playoffs when the spurs are down 0-2 or 1-3.
Simmons is getting the Devin Brown/Stephen Jackson treatment from Pop as opposed to getting pulled like young CoJo/Danny as Fathead.
midnightpulp you have some good points. I much prefer LMA exerting the effort he is doing on defense quite honestly.
Danny has been shooting poorly and obviously he's not the passer or creator that Manu is. Manu cannot be playing as much as 25-28 minutes against elite teams and closing games out. The quality of his play diminishes, he looses his legs, and will heroball. I prefer Manu heroball to Danny heroball. It should make Pop question why the team requires the SG to heroball as much to be efficient.
It's more to do with how limited he is. Every Spur has seen a boost to their offense and/or shooting percentage aside from him.
Things are improving, though. I last looked at our 5 man units a couple of weeks ago, and the NET RTG of the starters was only 2.6. It's climbed 4 points since then.
The SL probably shouldn't change, either. The Spurs can fade Danny's offensive limitations as long as he brings it defensively. He's a low usage player, so his 38% or whatever on 7 shots isn't damaging. We can also easily stagger his minutes with Manu and Simmons.
My primary concern is, like always, Parker. When he struggles, like yesterday, we see how drastically he affects everything. I just hope it was a Christmas Eve hangover, because Parker's resurgence is a big part of the Spurs' success this year.
It's one thing to struggle, it's another to force up while you're at it. I can live with Parker's age, not his ego.
damn I was really hoping OP was gone.
Good take. Especially about the amount of energy needed to play D and how that affects the O.
Also, watch Aldridge on Pick n rolls. It's rare he ever makes contact with the defensive player when he sets a pick. I think he is the worst Picker I've ever seen. And that says something about Aldridge and his mindset. I'm not totally sold on this guy yet. I see his talent...not sure I've seen his heart. Still early tho.
Our offense is steadily getting better. Having the largest point differential in the NBA is a bit telling....ya think?
Simmons is ready to play a role and has produced really well. He could expand that role, and hopefully he does but he's 26. I don't expect some breakthrough. He pretty much is who he is, which is fine. If anything, it would be huge if he could improve his 3 pt shooting. It would really make him a dangerous player and its maybe something that he can do with Chip regardless of age.Simmons is getting the Devin Brown/Stephen Jackson treatment from Pop as opposed to getting pulled like young CoJo/Danny as Fathead.
Cojo was really young and undeveloped. His game as a ball dominant guard was also not very complementary to the bench style, who already had another HoF ball dominant guard and the best passer in the team, so he wasn't going to play much.
Danny still gets Pop angry bc of his mental farts. In the beginning, he was so intolerable to Pop that he got cut.
Kyle is really skilled and could play in another team right away. He's young enough, and inexperienced enough still to have room for improvement and this is his first real rodeo. I am puzzled that the things that the Spurs had Kyle work on in the dleague and SL are not the things they are having him do here in the big team, so I think that is a big reason for why he has struggled on occasion. He's playing a different game. Simmons was pretty much doing the same things, now they are just more difficult. The challenge was increased, bigger/quicker/better guys to defend, offensively not as easy to blow by someone, or simply get uncontested shots at the rim. It's more difficult but it is the same game.
Kyle is not playing the same game they asked him to develop, so it is really puzzling.
Last edited by SAGirl; 12-27-2015 at 05:39 AM.
If LMA is not willing to bang bodies down low, then these kind of opportunities aren't going to be present.
Speaking about that pump fake, he's shooting like 29% on that.
To make a fair comparison, West was totally lost early in the season, but he's now figuring out how to play. Last game against the Nuggets West had 6 assists.
What does LMA do the entire game... he stands around in the midrange spot and is extremely indecisive when he gets the ball.
The starters offense has been pathetic and the real culprit here is LMA. Ball movement sucks and the lane is clogged.
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