Since 2011-2012, when Danny Green hits at least 3 three's....

[Dex]

....the Spurs have won 82% (119/146) of those games.

When Danny is active and doesn't hit at least 3 three's, that percentage drops to 71% (220/312).

Granted, the numbers are a bit skewed since the Spurs have won a metric -ton of games in that span either way...but that's a big difference for one shot from one player. Goes to show how important Danny's shooting is to the system.

Here is hoping Verde keeps this form up and keeps bringin' the D!

[Chinook]

He's not getting enough looks. Dude should be using 10-13 possessions a game. Right now, he's at 7.3. With team having a dearth of bucket-getters, having Green be a consistent offensive threat is a necessity. If his shot holds up, there's no way he shouldn't be averaging 15 pp36/13ppg.

[Spur|n|Austin]

And with the looks he is getting he's either passing or doing his dribble-in and pass out.

[NameLess Scrub]

....the Spurs have won 82% (119/146) of those games.

When Danny is active and doesn't hit at least 3 three's, that percentage drops to 71% (220/312).

Granted, the numbers are a bit skewed since the Spurs have won a metric -ton of games in that span either way...but that's a big difference for one shot from one player. Goes to show how important Danny's shooting is to the system.

Here is hoping Verde keeps this form up and keeps bringin' the D!

Honestly hope that ridiculous double clutch 3 he made in WAS is like a sign the gates are open for him.

[100%duncan]

He's always been a top 4 player on the team. When he's on, he puts us on a whole nother level it's incredible considering his limitations.

[Chinook]

And with the looks he is getting he's either passing or doing his dribble-in and pass out.

I feel like he's taken a couple of moderately contested threes this season and hit them, which is really encouraging for his long-term prognosis. I think if the Spurs don't prioritize getting him the ball, he's not going to get looks. First, the book is out on Danny, so teams aren't going to leave him hope and second, Kawhi will never have Parker's gravity.

The latter case the Spurs have tried to remedy by having Danny be the entry-passer. It didn't work last year, but it's working well enough this year. If Danny is comfortable taking contested threes and hits them at a decent rate, that will help him and LMA a ton.

The former case will only be resolved with plays and actions that give him the ball. The plays are rare but have been working when they get to happen (except the corner Hammer, which has been well-scouted). The actions have been getting him open, but it's not ingrained in the offense to look for him at certain points. He's still being treated mostly as a bailout man or a way to exploit weak defense. There's no "Well at this point in this play, you know so and so is going to make a cut which will leave Danny open about half the time, so look for him then." contingency in their offense.

[Solid D]

Excellent insight, Dex.

[MI21]

Danny is really unselfish. I would like to see him take another 2 3PA per game. The looks are there, they will just be semi contested which for Danny, has never really been a problem anyway.

[100%duncan]

I feel like he's taken a couple of moderately contested threes this season and hit them, which is really encouraging for his long-term prognosis. I think if the Spurs don't prioritize getting him the ball, he's not going to get looks. First, the book is out on Danny, so teams aren't going to leave him hope and second, Kawhi will never have Parker's gravity.

The latter case the Spurs have tried to remedy by having Danny be the entry-passer. It didn't work last year, but it's working well enough this year. If Danny is comfortable taking contested threes and hits them at a decent rate, that will help him and LMA a ton.

The former case will only be resolved with plays and actions that give him the ball. The plays are rare but have been working when they get to happen (except the corner Hammer, which has been well-scouted). The actions have been getting him open, but it's not ingrained in the offense to look for him at certain points. He's still being treated mostly as a bailout man or a way to exploit weak defense. There's no "Well at this point in this play, you know so and so is going to make a cut which will leave Danny open about half the time, so look for him then." contingency in their offense.

I dont know. Kawhi commands 4 players at times when he goes in the paint, you may have meant to say he doesnt have the same playmaking skills that TP does. I agree though with your previous post, Danny needs more looks. Takeaway those turnaround fadeaways from LMA and forced shots from Kawhi and give it to Danny instead.

[Dex]

I dont know. Kawhi commands 4 players at times when he goes in the paint, you may have meant to say he doesnt have the same playmaking skills that TP does. I agree though with your previous post, Danny needs more looks. Takeaway those turnaround fadeaways from LMA and forced shots from Kawhi and give it to Danny instead.

OMG this please.

In fact, I'll give Kawhi his forced shots. His offense has progressed so far that even those he can hit at a consistent clip, and they keep him engaged and fired up. If you had Kawhi worrying about what is a bad shot vs. a good shot, I'm afraid he would become tentative.

As for LMA's turnaround...that has got to go.

[sasaint]

OMG this please.

In fact, I'll give Kawhi his forced shots. His offense has progressed so far that even those he can hit at a consistent clip, and they keep him engaged and fired up. If you had Kawhi worrying about what is a bad shot vs. a good shot, I'm afraid he would become tentative.

As for LMA's turnaround...that has got to go.

They won't go until LMA goes.

[GSH]

I feel like he's taken a couple of moderately contested threes this season and hit them, which is really encouraging for his long-term prognosis. I think if the Spurs don't prioritize getting him the ball, he's not going to get looks. First, the book is out on Danny, so teams aren't going to leave him hope and second, Kawhi will never have Parker's gravity.

I dont know. Kawhi commands 4 players at times when he goes in the paint, you may have meant to say he doesnt have the same playmaking skills that TP does. I agree though with your previous post, Danny needs more looks.

One of the things that has been bugging the out of me about this team is that guys are not moving without the ball. Sometimes they hardly move at all, and when they do move, they aren't making hard cuts and/or creating clean passing lanes. When 3-4 players converge on Kawhi in the paint, you would think someone would be wide open - or open enough to make a second pass to someone who is wide open.

I don't know if it's a chicken-or-egg kind of thing, and guys aren't moving because the plan is to just give the ball to Kawhi and get out of the way. But night after night, I'm watching defenders camp in passing lanes and not have to move more than a step to stay between ball and man. Personally, I think this offense must be operating pretty much the way Pop intends, or he'd be screaming a lot more. But getting an open look isn't just the responsibility of the man with the ball.

[Chinook]

One of the things that has been bugging the out of me about this team is that guys are not moving without the ball. Sometimes they hardly move at all, and when they do move, they aren't making hard cuts and/or creating clean passing lanes. When 3-4 players converge on Kawhi in the paint, you would think someone would be wide open - or open enough to make a second pass to someone who is wide open.

I don't know if it's a chicken-or-egg kind of thing, and guys aren't moving because the plan is to just give the ball to Kawhi and get out of the way. But night after night, I'm watching defenders camp in passing lanes and not have to move more than a step to stay between ball and man. Personally, I think this offense must be operating pretty much the way Pop intends, or he'd be screaming a lot more. But getting an open look isn't just the responsibility of the man with the ball.

The two big things affecting that are 1) a lack of high-IQ screens to create open looks and 2) a lack of predictability on where the other guys should be to get good looks.

Splitter being done/gone hurts quite a bit, as he loved setting random back-picks. Duncan did too. You aren't going to get great off-ball movement just from sliding around the perimeter or ineffective cuts.

The second reason is much bigger. Kawhiso and post-up plays for LMA aren't really good ways to get open looks. Kawhi pretty much passes either when he has to or when he sees an opening. That's fine for him, but for the guy playing off the ball, that means he can't move very much. He's running the risk of either faking Kawhi out by not being where he just was before or clunking up the play by cutting through and bringing in a secondary defender. For post-ups the passes come off doubles, which can come at different times and from different places. The spacers can't be moving around, because then LMA doesn't have release valves

Contrast that to a Parker PnR and you have plenty of windows to get passes. You know where to slide depending on where Tony was in his drive. It's easy to stay in rhythm. It's like "You'll get the ball right now, or you'll slide to the corner for the next window to open in two seconds." Then of course, the Zipper Series had a ton of ways to get open since it wasn't based on Tony's passing but his speed. The Spurs offense right now is just too basic to get that kind of movement.

[Kawhitstorm]

I feel like he's taken a couple of moderately contested threes this season and hit them, which is really encouraging for his long-term prognosis. I think if the Spurs don't prioritize getting him the ball, he's not going to get looks. First, the book is out on Danny, so teams aren't going to leave him hope and second, Kawhi will never have Parker's gravity.

The latter case the Spurs have tried to remedy by having Danny be the entry-passer. It didn't work last year, but it's working well enough this year. If Danny is comfortable taking contested threes and hits them at a decent rate, that will help him and LMA a ton.

Yeah, he isn't comfortable taking contested 3s unlike Stephen Jackson who had an unblockable high release & didn't flinch even when defenders were running at him.

[T Park]

Danny Green is so underrated and so un appreciated with the fan base. It's a crime.

[sasaint]

I feel like he's taken a couple of moderately contested threes this season and hit them, which is really encouraging for his long-term prognosis. I think if the Spurs don't prioritize getting him the ball, he's not going to get looks. First, the book is out on Danny, so teams aren't going to leave him hope and second, Kawhi will never have Parker's gravity.

The latter case the Spurs have tried to remedy by having Danny be the entry-passer. It didn't work last year, but it's working well enough this year. If Danny is comfortable taking contested threes and hits them at a decent rate, that will help him and LMA a ton.

The former case will only be resolved with plays and actions that give him the ball. The plays are rare but have been working when they get to happen (except the corner Hammer, which has been well-scouted). The actions have been getting him open, but it's not ingrained in the offense to look for him at certain points. He's still being treated mostly as a bailout man or a way to exploit weak defense. There's no "Well at this point in this play, you know so and so is going to make a cut which will leave Danny open about half the time, so look for him then." contingency in their offense.

Danny must have worked tirelessly on both his dribbling and passing this past offseason. He is dribbling as much or more this season than he did last season. But, whereas last season plenty of ST posters were demanding his head, this season nobody has even commented on how much he has put the ball on the floor. I don't have any stats to back me up, but I would be willing to bet that he has more assists at this juncture than he ever has 17 games into a season. Danny looks much more comfortable and capable with his expanded role. Anybody who thinks Danny was freelancing last season doesn't know Pop. Pop wanted both Kawhi and Danny to expand their games. Both have. Kawhi's becoming so dominant has just overshadowed the fact that Danny has shown some impressive development, too.

[GSH]

You aren't going to get great off-ball movement just from sliding around the perimeter or ineffective cuts.

Yes. "Just sliding around the perimeter" and making ineffective cuts is EXACTLY what I've been wanting to see more of. Now I understand that those things wouldn't help.


"So you see - ineffective cuts are... ineffective."

[SAGirl]

Danny Green is so underrated and so un appreciated with the fan base. It's a crime.

Probably just with the "noisy" fanbase here. It gets too negative here. Sometimes you'd think we were talking about a team that is tanking. It's a crime.. I agree. I think Danny has been spectacular to start the season. I know he said his eyesight wasn't it, but he not only is shooting well, he's playing with a lot of confidence. Last season he went through stretches that his confidence was lacking. Anyways, yes he's very underrated even with some fans... though I think there are more that do appreciate his contributions at this point, they are just not as noisy as all the trolling...

[100%duncan]

The two big things affecting that are 1) a lack of high-IQ screens to create open looks and 2) a lack of predictability on where the other guys should be to get good looks.

Splitter being done/gone hurts quite a bit, as he loved setting random back-picks. Duncan did too. You aren't going to get great off-ball movement just from sliding around the perimeter or ineffective cuts.

The second reason is much bigger. Kawhiso and post-up plays for LMA aren't really good ways to get open looks. Kawhi pretty much passes either when he has to or when he sees an opening. That's fine for him, but for the guy playing off the ball, that means he can't move very much. He's running the risk of either faking Kawhi out by not being where he just was before or clunking up the play by cutting through and bringing in a secondary defender. For post-ups the passes come off doubles, which can come at different times and from different places. The spacers can't be moving around, because then LMA doesn't have release valves

Contrast that to a Parker PnR and you have plenty of windows to get passes. You know where to slide depending on where Tony was in his drive. It's easy to stay in rhythm. It's like "You'll get the ball right now, or you'll slide to the corner for the next window to open in two seconds." Then of course, the Zipper Series had a ton of ways to get open since it wasn't based on Tony's passing but his speed. The Spurs offense right now is just too basic to get that kind of movement.

So where did the Kawhi doesnt draw as much as Parker come from? You seem to be making harsh judgement or bold takes but always backtrack after, the problem is the playmaking. Parker didn't really draw 3-4 players every time he PnR'd

[Chinook]

Yes. "Just sliding around the perimeter" and making ineffective cuts is EXACTLY what I've been wanting to see more of. Now I understand that those things wouldn't help.


"So you see - ineffective cuts are... ineffective."

Just waiting for this shtick to run its course, I guess.

[Chinook]

So where did the Kawhi doesnt draw as much as Parker come from? You seem to be making harsh judgement or bold takes but always backtrack after, the problem is the playmaking. Parker didn't really draw 3-4 players every time he PnR'd

You didn't even register what my post was about. The reason why the Parker-led Spurs had a better offense is because the PnR is a timing play. Kawhiso may draw more attention (though that's only if you don't calibrate for the type of play it is), but it has no set timing. Kawhi will pass when he sees a man open or when he can't score himself. PnR plays aren't designed that way. The handler has certain options to pass the ball to depending on where they are in the play.

It's analogous to designed runs in American Football. All the linemen and blockers known where to go on those plays. Some really complex stuff happens, but it's already been practiced to the point that there isn't anything but execution left. Kawhisos and LMA post-up plays are like QBs scrambling or buying time in the pocket. The line have no idea what to do for the most part, and you get a lot more holding calls, because they lose leverage on their men. It's not that the RB is better at running than the QB; it's that when everyone can just do their jobs in a set rhythm, execution is much easier.

[MaNu4Tres]

You didn't even register what my post was about. The reason why the Parker-led Spurs had a better offense is because the PnR is a timing play. Kawhiso may draw more attention (though that's only if you don't calibrate for the type of play it is), but it has no set timing. Kawhi will pass when he sees a man open or when he can't score himself. PnR plays aren't designed that way. The handler has certain options to pass the ball to depending on where they are in the play.

It's analogous to designed runs in American Football. All the linemen and blockers known where to go on those plays. Some really complex stuff happens, but it's already been practiced to the point that there isn't anything but execution left. Kawhisos and LMA post-up plays are like QBs scrambling or buying time in the pocket. The line have no idea what to do for the most part, and you get a lot more holding calls, because they lose leverage on their men. It's not that the RB is better at running than the QB; it's that when everyone can just do their jobs in a set rhythm, execution is much easier.

Its as simple as this.

Parker & Manu had the foot speed, quickness in change of direction and acceleration that enabled them to create significant separation from their man in ISOs or in PnRs. They'd be able to draw in the weakside D a lot quicker, which opened up wider passing lanes and off ball opportunities for their teammates

Kawhi doesn't have the same foot speed, quickness, or acceleration. The times he does turn the corner on PnRs his guy is usually on his hip as Kawhi physically fights his way around the corner. He doesn't have the vision either as sometimes the strong on ball D makes him reverse his dribble right into congested areas of the court where one weakside defender can essentially defend two guys ( Kawhi and his man) at the same time.

Kawhi doesn't have the same quickness, foot speed, acceleration or vision to be as effective in breaking down a defense like Parker and Manu did in their prime.

Sure Kawhi can still be effective in PnR situations with his scoring because of his elite length/strength using his body to get off mid-range pull ups and using his body to get off shots in the paint, but he will likely never be able to break down defenses like Parker and Manu did in their prime.

[spursistan]

Easily the 2nd most impactful player on the team after Kawhi..

That's what I hate the most about LMA in contrast: taking too much volume shooting and overall usage for a paltry sway on the team final results..the advanced metrics back that up..

[dabom]

Its as simple as this.

Parker & Manu had the foot speed, quickness in change of direction and acceleration that enabled them to create significant separation from their man in ISOs or in PnRs. They'd be able to draw in the weakside D a lot quicker, which opened up wider passing lanes and off ball opportunities for their teammates

Kawhi doesn't have the same foot speed, quickness, or acceleration. The times he does turn the corner on PnRs his guy is usually on his hip as Kawhi physically fights his way around the corner. He doesn't have the vision either as sometimes the strong on ball D makes him reverse his dribble right into congested areas of the court where one weakside defender can essentially defend two guys ( Kawhi and his man) at the same time.

Kawhi doesn't have the same quickness, foot speed, acceleration or vision to be as effective in breaking down a defense like Parker and Manu did in their prime.

Sure Kawhi can still be effective in PnR situations with his scoring because of his elite length/strength using his body to get off mid-range pull ups and using his body to get off shots in the paint, but he will likely never be able to break down defenses like Parker and Manu did in their prime.

Kawhi is already a better scorer and pnr ball handler mid-range shooter three point shooter driver to the basket. He draws easily 2 or 3 players on every play. He is light years ahead of any Parker lead offense. Porker had Manu for other guard duties. Kawhi has zero.

[Chinook]

Its as simple as this.

Parker & Manu had the foot speed, quickness in change of direction and acceleration that enabled them to create significant separation from their man in ISOs or in PnRs. They'd be able to draw in the weakside D a lot quicker, which opened up wider passing lanes and off ball opportunities for their teammates

Kawhi doesn't have the same foot speed, quickness, or acceleration. The times he does turn the corner on PnRs his guy is usually on his hip as Kawhi physically fights his way around the corner. He doesn't have the vision either as sometimes the strong on ball D makes him reverse his dribble right into congested areas of the court where one weakside defender can essentially defend two guys ( Kawhi and his man) at the same time.

Kawhi doesn't have the same quickness, foot speed, acceleration or vision to be as effective in breaking down a defense like Parker and Manu did in their prime.

Sure Kawhi can still be effective in PnR situations with his scoring because of his elite length/strength using his body to get off mid-range pull ups and using his body to get off shots in the paint, but he will likely never be able to break down defenses like Parker and Manu did in their prime.

Yes, this is all true. That's a big reason why a Kawhi-led PnR offense probably won't be a thing for the Spurs. He'll run some here and there, especially with LMA but he won't do it all the time. I'd actually like to see him and Green do a 3/2 PnF just to cause switching issues.

Anyway, nothing leveraged Parker's elite speed like the Zipper Series did. Tony was getting good looks for guys without even touching the ball, that's how crazy-good that set was in his prime. When people try to act like Kawhi has that type of gravity, I just shake my head. Having guys collapse on you in the paint is nowhere near being able to just run around the basket and turn a defense inside out. That people can't admit that Parker was a HoF offensive player is beyond me.