On White Phosphorus and Fallujah

[Nbadan]

US Army Article Confirms White Phosphorous Use In Fallujah

A March '05 publication by the US Army confirms that US soldiers used white phosphorus offensively in the Battle of Fallujah. This directly contradicts statements made by the U.S. Department of Defense and by the US State Department.

The new discovery also backs up the allegations made in an Italian do entary screened this week concerning the use of white phosphorous in Fallujah. (See… http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0511/S00143.htm )

The broadcast shows video of a U.S. helicopter repeatedly raining down a bombardment of white phosphorus across Fallujah at night. The U.S. State Department had previously released a statement categorically denying all use of white phosphorus during the battle of Fallujah except for illumination purposes. This confirms several firsthand reports from news sources at the time of the invasion.

In the video, Jeff Englehart, a Marine who served in Fallujah and who maintains a weblog at http://www.ftssoldier.blogspot.com , claims that there was widespread, indicriminate use of white phosphorus in last year's attack on Fallujah.

The white phosphorus hits and disperses into an indiscriminately lethal cloud with a kill zone approximately a quarter of a mile wide -- over a tenth of a mile in all directions. Although white phosphorus often has no effect on clothes, when it makes contact with a person's skin, it will burn it down to the bone. If the gas is inhaled, it will blister the throat and lungs, causing rapid suffocation, burning the body from the inside.

Englehart heard officers approve requests for use of white phosphorus on a wide scale throughout the assault.

"It comes across the radio as a general transmission... we have speakers in our trucks. 'We're going to drop some Willy Pete.' 'Roger. Commence bombing'"

"We were told going into Fallujah that every single person going into the combat area that was walking, talking, breathing was an enemy combatant. . . It seemed like just a massive killing of Arabs. It looked like just a massive killing. . . Burned bodies. Burned children. Burned women. White phosphorus kills indiscriminately."

Englehart also reported that the invasion of Fallujah was intentionally delayed by the Bush administration until after the election.

"It's was definitely the case. Even in the military ranks, we knew what was going on. They told us..."

Here is the story on artillery use from the March/April edition of the US Army's "Field Artillery Magazine" :

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0511/S00185.htm

The relevant mentions of white phosphorous in the article:

The munitions we brought to this fight were . . . illumination
and white phosphorous (WP, M110 and M825), with point-detonating (PD), delay, time and variable-time (VT) fuzes."

"WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired “shake and bake” missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them
out."

What the article does not say, however, is that there is no way you can use white phosphorus like that without forming a deadly chemical cloud that kills everything within a tenth of a mile in all directions from where it hits. Obviously, the effect of such deadly clouds weren't just psychological in nature.

This claim of "shake and bake" is further confirmed in a news article by an embedded journalist at the time.
(See...http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/04/11/military/ira... )

"Bogert is a mortar team leader who directed his men to fire round after round of high explosives and white phosphorus charges into the city Friday and Saturday, never knowing what the targets were or what damage the resulting explosions caused. . . they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call "shake 'n' bake" into a cluster of buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week."

This directly contradicts a previous US State Department statement, (archived at: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0511/S00186.htm ) , that WP was used "very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes".

[SWC Bonfire]

Imagine that, something that is on fire actually burning you.

The "chemical cloud", a.k.a. "smoke", if covers a 1/10th of a mile radius as claimed, would have different concentrations of smoke that decreased radically from the point of detonation, which is not on the ground. So, that number may hold true up in the air, but it is diffused somewhat by the time it hits the ground, if in fact a majority of the smoke ever does drift towards ground in gaseous form. More likely, it becomes like dust in the air and sifts out eventually, probably in a chemical form similar to potash, a.k.a. fertilizer.

[Mr. Peabody]

Imagine that, something that is on fire actually burning you.

The "chemical cloud", a.k.a. "smoke", if covers a 1/10th of a mile radius as claimed, would have different concentrations of smoke that decreased radically from the point of detonation, which is not on the ground. So, that number may hold true up in the air, but it is diffused somewhat by the time it hits the ground, if in fact a majority of the smoke ever does drift towards ground in gaseous form. More likely, it becomes like dust in the air and sifts out eventually, probably in a chemical form similar to potash, a.k.a. fertilizer.

Does the military know that this weapon is so ineffective and if so, why is it still being used? Just another example of government wasting money on that doesn't work.
________
Zero2TheLimit

[SWC Bonfire]

Does the military know that this weapon is so ineffective and if so, why is it still being used? Just another example of government wasting money on that doesn't work.

Um, to light up areas at night so you can see what you're fighting, what it has always been used for? Is this a rhetorical question?

Addendum: This is the same thing as a rescue flare. They didn't mention that in the article. It is either written by someone who doesn't understand its use, or deliberately written to make it sound like Americans are pouring the equivalent of hot oil/greek fire on completely innocent and angelic people.

[Marcus Bryant]

The US military is to be faulted for using lethal weaponry in a battle. I think I've heard it all now. I wish Bush would just declare that he's for legalizing gay marriage, has no problem with legal abortion and all that God stuff? Well he was just kidding about that. Maybe then his opponents would stop with the ing stupidity.

That's what drives our politics today. If Bill C was in the White House most people wouldn't give two flips about what was going on in Iraq.

[Useruser666]

What do you mean it doesn't work? WP was used not as it was orignally intended. It was adapted to a different role. I don't think most people understand how exactly it was being used. I don't take that as a big shocker that the DOD statements. Is that supposed to be a cover up or some kind of scandal? Pffft. That's like saying a trenching tool was used as a weaopn and the DOD said it was just used to dig a fox hole.

[Mr. Peabody]

Um, to light up areas at night so you can see what you're fighting, what it has always been used for? Is this a rhetorical question?

Addendum: This is the same thing as a rescue flare. They didn't mention that in the article. It is either written by someone who doesn't understand its use, or deliberately written to make it sound like Americans are pouring the equivalent of hot oil/greek fire on completely innocent and angelic people.

See, I misunderstood its use from the wording in the article. I assumed it was a weapon.

Goddam liberal media!
________
ShemaleHottie18 cam

[Vashner]

Dan.. btw. Fallujah was a battle..

You know where people fight...

Why don't you STFU and let the troops do there job... no one needs your pansy ass
to join the Army or Marines.

[Useruser666]

You can beat someone to death with a camera. All media should withdraw from Iraq NOW!!!

[Nbadan]

The "chemical cloud", a.k.a. "smoke", if covers a 1/10th of a mile radius as claimed, would have different concentrations of smoke that decreased radically from the point of detonation, which is not on the ground. So, that number may hold true up in the air, but it is diffused somewhat by the time it hits the ground, if in fact a majority of the smoke ever does drift towards ground in gaseous form. More likely, it becomes like dust in the air and sifts out eventually, probably in a chemical form similar to potash, a.k.a. fertilizer.

A weapon that can be adapted to kill men, women, children and the elderly indiscriminately, and the wing-nuts support it 100%, imagine that.


Guess we found those WMD's after all.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Dan, you realize white phosphorous is used in flares, right?

You ever seen a rescue flare? Same .

This is hilarious. This is tantamount to the chain email about the dangerous compound that can kill you... none other than hydrogen dioxide

The signal flares are coming, the signal flares are coming! Run for the hills.

BTW, kudos to pulling an Al Jazeera story, yet again, to try and run down the good Ol' US of mother ing A.

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/new...rvice_id=10017

[SWC Bonfire]

Maybe Dan doesn't understand the word "phosphorescent".

It drops small chunks of phosphorous on innocent bystanders that happen to be outside in the middle of a gunfight/bombing raid. I can see the uproar, I mean, these people couldn't just get under, oh, I don't know, a tent.

[xrayzebra]

A weapon that can be adapted to kill men, women, children and the elderly indiscriminately, and the wing-nuts support it 100%, imagine that.


Guess we found those WMD's after all.

Dan, you ever hear of WWII and Hamburg, Germany. Allied bombing killed
50,000 in one night in a firestorm created by that bombing. Wars really do
kill people. Always has, always will. So does chopping ones head off with
their hands tied behind their back. Or blowing ones self up and killing people at a wedding party. No one is immune to being killed in a war. We will, I am convinced, see it again here in the US. It just might be you or I.

[Mr. Peabody]

Dan, you realize white phosphorous is used in flares, right?

You ever seen a rescue flare? Same .

This is hilarious. This is tantamount to the chain email about the dangerous compound that can kill you... none other than hydrogen dioxide

The signal flares are coming, the signal flares are coming! Run for the hills.

BTW, kudos to pulling an Al Jazeera story, yet again, to try and run down the good Ol' US of mother ing A.

I will admit that I do not know anything about weapons, as evidenced by my former post in this thread, but are phosphorous grenades weapons, or are they also used to help see in the dark?

I am not trying to bait anyone with this question. I have heard about phosphorous grenades and how bad they are, and I always assumed that they were used as weapons.
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ROLL BLUNTS

[Oh, Gee!!]

Peabody, you're such a pussy. Go back to pencil-pushing and let us men discuss war

[Mr. Peabody]

Peabody, you're such a pussy. Go back to pencil-pushing and let us men discuss war

You don't even know wtf white phosphorous is Oh, Gee!

For all you know it's something that rappers wear on their teeth.
________
LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS

[Oh, Gee!!]

I'll rap you!

[Mr. Peabody]

I'll rap you!

Hiyoooooooh
________
VAPORIZERS

[Useruser666]

I will admit that I do not know anything about weapons, as evidenced by my former post in this thread, but are phosphorous grenades weapons, or are they also used to help see in the dark?

I am not trying to bait anyone with this question. I have heard about phosphorous grenades and how bad they are, and I always assumed that they were used as weapons.

That is not the same thing. The use of the white phosphorus is the same as using a smoke grenade or flash bang to startle or confuse the enemy before you shoot them. It's not the same as napalm or an inciendiary device used specifically to kill. It's like shooting a big flare gun at people.

As a side note, the vapor or "smoke" produced by the WP is not great for you, but to compare it to a true chemical weapon is ridiculous. It's like calling a fart a chemical weapon.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The only reason phosphorus grenades are associated with bad things is because usually right after they go off Delta Force, the Navy Seals, or the SAS bust down the door and cap all the asshole bad guys.

Hence = bad things.

[RandomGuy]

Um, to light up areas at night so you can see what you're fighting, what it has always been used for? Is this a rhetorical question?

Addendum: This is the same thing as a rescue flare. They didn't mention that in the article. It is either written by someone who doesn't understand its use, or deliberately written to make it sound like Americans are pouring the equivalent of hot oil/greek fire on completely innocent and angelic people.

I would agree with this.

This kind of stuff generally sounds to me like someone who gets 1/2 of what is going on, lacks context and goes ape over something innocous.

[RandomGuy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_p...rus_incendiary


White phosphorus is a common allotrope of the chemical element phosphorus which has found extensive military application as a smoke-screening agent and for target marking. It is also used as an incendiary weapon [1]. It is commonly referred to in military jargon as "WP" or "white phos". The Vietnam War era slang Willie Pete or Wiley P is still occasionally heard.



Um, we were laying down *gasp* smoke screens?

HOLY !!!!



Man, I wanted to make 100% sure that my memory of white phosphorous usage was correct before really calling the bull . I remember that WP was simply used as for concealment when moving around in urban areas.

The aim of WP is to screen friendly troop movement so they don't get fragged crossing open ground.

I think the idiots here are confusing smoke screens with the more nasty types of incindiaries.

[RandomGuy]

Dan, you realize white phosphorous is used in flares, right?

You ever seen a rescue flare? Same .

This is hilarious. This is tantamount to the chain email about the dangerous compound that can kill you... none other than hydrogen dioxide

The signal flares are coming, the signal flares are coming! Run for the hills.

BTW, kudos to pulling an Al Jazeera story, yet again, to try and run down the good Ol' US of mother ing A.

Heh, hydrogen dioxide isn't half as deadly as
(DAH DAH DUMMMM!!!)

Dihydrogen Monoxide

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

^^^^^^^ Yeah, thanks for correcting me there. ing dyslexia...

I'm still cracking up about Nbadunce getting his panties in a bunch over the military firing off some roman candles and sparklers in Fallujah.

Chemical warfare... coming to you at a New Year's Eve family gathering near you

[Nbadan]

Right, and we don't torture people either.

George Monbiot
Tuesday November 15, 2005
The Guardian


Did US troops use chemical weapons in Falluja? The answer is yes. The proof is not to be found in the do entary broadcast on Italian TV last week, which has generated gigabytes of hype on the internet. It's a turkey, whose evidence that white phosphorus was fired at Iraqi troops is flimsy and cir stantial. But the bloggers debating it found the smoking gun.

The first account they unearthed in a magazine published by the US army. In the March 2005 edition of Field Artillery, officers from the 2nd Infantry's fire support element boast about their role in the attack on Falluja in November last year: "White Phosphorous. WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE . We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."

The second, in California's North County Times, was by a reporter embedded with the marines in the April 2004 siege of Falluja. "'Gun up!' Millikin yelled ... grabbing a white phosphorus round from a nearby ammo can and holding it over the tube. 'Fire!' Bogert yelled, as Millikin dropped it. The boom kicked dust around the pit as they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call 'shake'n'bake' into... buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week."

White phosphorus is not listed in the schedules of the Chemical Weapons Convention. It can be legally used as a flare to illuminate the battlefield, or to produce smoke to hide troop movements from the enemy. Like other unlisted substances, it may be deployed for "Military purposes... not dependent on the use of the toxic properties of chemicals as a method of warfare". But it becomes a chemical weapon as soon as it is used directly against people. A chemical weapon can be "any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm".
(snip/...)

Guardian

Some people really need to get their heads out of the sand and get their facts straight.