Thread
The good guys/bad guys narrative is indispensable for organizing both sides and for validating the ethical underpinning of war -- again, on both sides -- but it tends to obscure economic and strategic interests that are more or less amoral and realpolitical. The US may have reasons other than the sanc y of the rules-based international order and concern for Ukraine for its current policy stance.
Last edited by Winehole23; 06-08-2022 at 11:21 AM.
Yeah, because the US made up that rules-based international order to feather our cap.
Putin is shoving same up Z's/Ukr's ass and by proxy up Biden's ass. That Biden proxy doesn't just work the 1 way as Biden thought/was assured it would/"Yes, sir, it won't affect you, Mr. President."
Biden, to his credit wasn't convinced...so, he countered..."Will I end up back out at Dover with the children?"
"No sir!!!"
"Let's go!"
Just like the ole Patsy Cline song, I fall to pieces.
Putler losing generals and ammo depots.
just like the Germans backed off of Paris to give themselves a chance to lose more troops and arms then make the French REALLY surrender.
If you don't know what you're doing, neither does your enemy.
- Joe Tzu
The stance that territory occupied by Russia be returned to Ukraine has "ended any hope", but Russian stance that Ukraine and Ukrainians should stop existing before that didn't? How is this anything but absolving Russia of it's actions and deeds so far? There need to be two parties willing to have peace, and one has no interest in it unless we all bow to their irrational demands. And Russia grievances go way beyond Ukraine. Even if Ukraine gives into every Russian demand that doesn't stop them, in fact it makes it even more likely that there will be more blood, more war, more suffering.The new Ukrainian stance, that there will be no peace deal without recovering the Crimea, has ended for now any hopes of an early ceasefire. It appears to be a militarily unachievable objective – I cannot think of any scenario in which Russia de facto loses Crimea, without the serious possibility of worldwide nuclear war.
History is clear, there is no lasting peace with fascists. Peace wasn't bought with Sudetenland and cannot be bought with Crimea. What did the Ukrainians get for their last cease-fire with Russia? An even more destructive war.
I guess your best hope for your kind of peace with Russia is hoping Trump wins in 2024, and Putin and his pal can maybe carve up Ukraine together. The rest of us will cheer for actual victory of freedom and democracy.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/euro...ow-2022-06-08/Euro zone GDP growth speeds up in Q1 despite Ukraine war, revised data show
...
The final data show that euro zone growth gained speed in the first quarter from a lacklustre final quarter of 2021, despite Russia's Feb. 24 invasion of Ukraine, which disrupted supply chains, hit confidence and caused energy prices to soar.
The negative impact of the war is however expected to be felt in the second quarter. Growth in the euro zone slowed significantly in the last quarter of 2021, to 0.2% from a 2.3% quarterly expansion in Q3, Eurostat's final data show.
...
I hope Ukraine wins. Short of that I hope they get a peace they can live with.
I don't agree with Craig Murray right down the line, but the conversation in here has been very two-sided and moralizing. Either pro-Russia or pro-Ukraine. I think that's artificially narrow. Most wars don't end in total surrender, at some point diplomacy and negotiation will be necessary. It's doubtful absolute demands on either side will survive that, once both sides are ready to do a deal.
Last edited by Winehole23; 06-08-2022 at 02:36 PM.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/06/8/7351281/Evgenii Fedorov, a State Duma of Russian Federation Deputy, suggested cancelling the Soviet times decree that recognizes the independence of Lithuania.
Name one totalitarian expansionist fascist empire with genocidal ambitions that didn't end with total surrender.
And another one.
Ukraine's choice will be to continue trading deaths with the Russians in a fairly static 'front line" while the area is totally destroyed, or end the fighting by giving up some territory. if they go the trading deaths route I suspect Russia has more bodies to waste than Ukraine does.
the Mongols, several current african states/tribes around lake victoria, Russia for 80 years, the Romans for a millennium, Ottoman Turks, etc.
History is replete with them. Stopping them is only a recent development.
Putin will decide if & when it is over.
IMO, unless the Ruskies decide to build up a wall (lmao) to separate the Donbas from the rest of Ukraine, this is going to keep going and going. This became a war of attrition, which is the last thing Russia wants. They might declare victory by taking the Donbas, but neither the sanctions nor the war are going to end there.
As things stand today, the only two roads to end this are WW3 or Russia capitulating like they did in Afghanistan due to sanctions/economic collapse.
Absolutely.
The US wants a democracy that is friendly to the US.
Another big thriving trading partner that is less corrupt would be a wonderful thing.
Or, Ukraine might see the US only backing them when they fought so hard to maintain their very existence and think we are a bunch of homers.
Which might not be far from the truth. Poland might become their best buds...
...oh no, we're wedded to Ukr ever more. Z is Charlie McCarthy. Biden is Edgar Bergen. That was the deal day 1... "You'll fight. We'll tell you what to do, how to do it, when to do it and we'll supply the materiel to do it with. You'll go out to your Dover."
"Huh?"
"Never mind that, you'll find out, just don't look at your watch, kid. I won't go out to my Dover."
"Huh?"
"Doesn't concern you. Let us proceed..."
Turkey has an absolutely rotten leader.
Add that to any analysis.
He needs to go via the Turkish people, they need to become much more of a democracy.
Edrogan got rid of their military's ventures into the political, then he took over the political part as well.
Personally I feel like they need to suffer some setbacks to get rid of the guy, but this war is good for his type in this situation.
Wedded to Ukraine? Please...
The orange man was all over their biggest problem in corruption, Hunter Biden!
What a laugher.
"Hey Zelensky! I need on my next political opponent. Please use your secret service to check out the druggie. Thanks. And maybe I dont give you to Russia, or maybe I do. "
termination completed.
There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
