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The 'seemingly limitless potential' of the young Celtics players has never impressed me.
Here is a story posted on realgm.com that will add to the Dumars and RC debate.
The Best GM's In The Game Today
27th January, 2006 - 1:07 am
By Aaron Bronsteter
On the heels of the Rob Bab firing and continuing criticism being aimed at the enigmatic Isiah Thomas, this edition of Standing 10 will determine the ten best general managers in the NBA today.
10) Danny Ainge
Ainge has a love/hate relationship with the Celtics’ fan base. One day he’ll trade Antoine Walker for the long-term contract of Raef Lafrentz and the next he’ll draft Al Jefferson, Gerald Green and a slew of other draft picks with seemingly limitless potential.
When the Celtics win or the rookies perform well, he’s considered a genius, but when the rookies don’t get minutes or he trades for Wally Szczerbiak’s long-term inflated contract, he’s considered a burden.
Currently, the Celtics team is a strange en y consisting of veteran superstar Paul Pierce, the recently acquired Wally Szczerbiak and a young core featuring Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Kendrick Perkins, Tony Allen and Delonte West.
Two seasons from now, it will be seen if Ainge can either make a serious mark on this Celtics squad or if he’ll be standing in the unemployment line.
9) John Paxson
Paxson has transformed the Chicago Bulls into a nice looking young team in the post-Jordan, post-Krause era. Some of his brilliant moves include trading an unprotected first rounder from the upcoming season to the Suns for Luol Deng and then making the playoffs, drafting Kirk Hinrich with the 7th pick in the 2003 NBA Draft and trading the underachieving Eddy Curry for Mike Sweetney and the right to swap draft picks with the struggling New York Knicks .
Along with the continually improving play of Ben Gordon and Tyson Chandler, this Bulls team has all of the pieces of a potentially great team down the line. All they need is a true superstar and if Paxson can land one without giving up too much youth, he can surely be considered among the league’s best GMs.
8) Kiki Vandeweghe
Although the Nuggets’ franchise player practically fell into his lap, Vandeweghe has done a nice job of building his team. First he traded an unhealthy Antonio McDyess for Nene and Marcus Camby, which ended up being a very nice move, especially with Camby’s dangerous defensive game. He also orchestrated a sign and trade deal for Kenyon Martin and that will really be the move that defines the rest of his career with the Nuggets. Martin has done a pretty good job so far, but has he really merited a maximum contract? Time will tell if the nucleus Vandeweghe built will pan out.
7) Jerry Colangelo
After stealing Amare Stoudemire in the draft and realizing that he and Stephon Marbury weren’t performing to the best of their capabilities, Colangelo flipped Marbury to the Knicks for expiring contracts, young talent and future draft picks. With the cap space, Colangelo signed future league MVP Steve Nash to a long term deal. The Nash, Stoudemire, Marion trio is one of the league’s deadliest, especially on the offensive end.
Colangelo also made the most of Joe Johnson’s departure by scoring the versatile Boris Diaw and some first round selections. Even with Stoudemire injured, the Suns are still on top of the league in offensive output.
6) Don Nelson/Donnie Nelson
Nelson has always tried to do the right thing for the Mavericks, including stepping down to let Avery Johnson take over the team (he will be the Western Conference All-Star coach.) Nelson also drafted Josh Howard and Marquis Daniels with very late picks in the same draft and landed Devin Harris, who will one day run the show when Jason Terry’s time comes. Nelson needed defence, so he traded for or drafted defence and the team has excelled as a result.
Dallas currently has the best record in the West and it is the result of good team building.
His son Donnie is now carrying on the Nelson tradition.
5) Geoff Petrie
Petrie is not afraid to take risks and he has proven that with his Chris Webber and Peja Stojakovic trades. Petrie unloaded Webber’s hefty contract after the aging star was unable to lead the team to the promised land and received the tenacious Kenny Thomas, who has done a good job with the team. Petrie traded for Bonzi Wells, who has added some energy off the bench and signed Shareef Abdur-Rahim for a bargain basement price.
Trading for Ron Artest will only improve the team as Mike Bibby enters his prime and as Peja Stojakovic seemed to be getting worse and was not showing up. The improving play of Kevin Martin and Fransisco Garcia shows that Petrie knows how to draft late-first round contributors and his deal to land Brad Miller last offseason was a stroke of genius as the big man has provided the toughness that the team lacked.
4) Pat Riley
Riley drafted Dwyane Wade with the 5th pick in the 2003 draft and he has emerged as arguably the best or second best player to come out of the draft. But more importantly, Riley was able to trade Shaquille O’Neal without giving up Wade and got the Big Aristotle to accept a pay cut.
This past offseason Riley was able to land players like Jason Williams, Antoine Walker and James Posey while giving up next to nothing to acquire them. He also signed the hard working Udonis Haslem (whom he brought into the league) to a long term contract.
3) Rod Thorn
Thorn may have cost Rob Bab his job after fleecing him on the Vince Carter trade last season. Landing Carter for practically nothing was certainly a large step towards bringing the Nets back to where they were in previous seasons. Thorn also decided not to re-sign Kenyon Martin to his desired maximum contract and traded him to the Nuggets for three first round selections.
He was also able to unload Kerry Kittles for a first round pick and did a great job with drafting Nenad Krstic and bringing him in from Europe.
2) Joe Dumars
Two finals appearances and one championship in the last two seasons after drafting Darko Milicic with the 2nd overall pick in one of the deepest drafts ever makes Dumars an enigma in terms of general managers. Dumars drafted Tayshaun Prince as a late selection in the 2002 draft, acquired Rasheed Wallace cheap and signed Ben Wallace to an extremely affordable contract.
Dumars also signed Chauncey Billups and Antonio McDyess and traded an aging Jerry Stackhouse for sparkplug Richard “Rip” Hamilton.
With those moves, Dumars has built a winning team for many years to come.
1) R.C. Buford
Many casual NBA fans will not even recognize this name, but the San Antonio Spurs GM has done an incredible job. The most impressive thing is Buford’s ability to pinpoint foreign talent and bring them into the league. This includes Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili who have become NBA stars and Beno Udrih, who is an up and coming young player with great potential.
Buford has also been able to add key players like Brent Barry, Michael Finley, Nick Van Exel, Robert Horry and Nazr Mohammed. All of those players have the ability to do the little things in a big way in order to make the Spurs a team that are considered a top two or three team in the NBA.
More championships should be around the corner for the Spurs.
The 'seemingly limitless potential' of the young Celtics players has never impressed me.
I love Buford's way of picking great foreign players, but I think some of what he's done isn't quite as impressive as Joe D because he's had TD to build around. Dumars did it with salary cap and nobody to build around.
sorry to hide this from u guys, but im actually RC BUFORD posting behind this nick.
First off, Bryan Colangelo is the GM, not Jerry.
Second, while his moves have yet to yield a le, his moves have saved the Suns from burdensome countracts of Penny, Gugliotta, Kidd, Marbury and has drafted as well as any in the League. He's made great signings, many for cheap and routinely comes out on top in any trade. He's much much better than this article gives him credit for. Easily a top-5 GM. No way Riley, Nelson or Thorn is better.
funny but no
Dumars had plenty of cap space after Hill walked. Buford and Pop got Tim to stay in the same FA year. Give credit where credit is due.
I would place Joe as a distant third after the Suns GM who has continued to work wonders.
Having Tim doesn't = instant GM recognition. RC and Pop have found Gems overseas and brought them here and won championships.
Not to beat a dead horse, and please correct me if I am wrong, but did not Kiki pass on Amare Stoudemire and DWade in back to back drafts?
Not stellar imo.
Joe Dumars hired: June 6, 2000.
Grant Hill announces he's leaving: July 3, 2000.
Don't credit Dumars with something he wasn't responsible for - not putting a team around Grant Hill for six years. If anything, the Pistons tried to exploit his relationship with Hill in order to re-sign him. And it was a sign-and-trade for two guys within 15% of Hill's 7-year, 93 million dollar deal (Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins).
The true cap space came from:
-Trading Lindsey Hunter (4 years, 16 million on deal) to Milwaukee for Billy Owens (free agent in 2001).
-Trading Christian Laettner (one year left on his deal) and Terry Mills (re-signed free agent for one year) to Dallas for Cederic Ceballos (free agent in 2001), John Wallace (free agent in 2002), and Erick Murdock (waived). This deal didn't gain the Pistons any cap room, but this deal was done as a pre-cursor to something the Pistons never thought was possible:
-Trading Loy Vaught (3 years, 11 million with 18 months of back surgery rehab) for Dana Barros (a contributing point guard in the last year of his contract) and Ansu Sesay (waived).
- Trading soon-to-be free agent Jerome Williams and Eric Montross to the Raptors for Corliss Williamson (free agent in 2001), Kornel David (free agent in 2001), and Tyrone Corbin (waived).
- Traded Rodney White to the Denver Nuggets for Don Reid, Mengke Bateer, and a conditional 1st round pick (lottery protected from Milwaukee).
- Traded Mengke Batter to San Antonio for 2003 2nd round draft pick (Andreas Glyniadakis of Greece).
- Traded Cliff Robinson and Pepe Sanchez to Golden State for Bob Sura (6.1 million, final year of contract).
- Traded Mike Curry to the Toronto Raptors for Lindsey Hunter (one-year, 4 million remaining).
- Trading Chucky Atkins (3-years, 16 million left on deal) for Mike James (one-year, 3 million left).
- Traded Corliss Williamson (18 million left on deal) for Derrick Coleman (last year of contract, 8.0 million) and Amal McCaskill (1.1 million).
- Traded Ronald Dupree to the Minnesota Timberwolves for a 2006 2nd round draft pick.
What he did with that cap space:
2002:
-Traded Jud Buechler (3.0 million dollars), John Wallace (3.1 million dollars) to the Phoenix Suns for Clifford Robinson (7.6 million).
-Re-signed Corliss Williamson with a 6-year, 36 million dollar deal.
-Traded for the rights to Zeljko Rebraca, signed him to a 3-year, 12-million dollar contract with a team option after the first year.
-Signed Damon Jones with the veterans minimum.
-Re-signed Dana Barros with the veterans minimum.
-Traded Mateen Cleaves (2.1 million) to the Sacramento Kings for Jon Barry (3.5 million) and a conditional 1st round draft pick.
2003:
- Named 2002-03 General Manager of the Year.
- Signed 2001 2nd round pick Mehmet Okur to a two-year deal.
- Signed Chauncey Billups with a six-year, 42-million dollar contract.
- Extended Cliff Robinson with a 2-year, 10 million dollar contract after a 2nd team All-Defensive selection.
- Traded Jerry Stackhouse, Brian Cardinal, and Rakto Varda to the Washington Wizards for Richard "Rip" Hamilton, Hubert Davis, and Bobby Simmons (waived).
- Signed Juan "Pepe" Sanchez to a two-year, 2.1 million dollar contract.
-Signed Danny Manning for the rest of the season.
2004:
- Extended Richard Hamilton with a 6-year, 63 million dollar contract.
- Signed Elden Campbell with a 2-year, 8 million dollar deal.
- Signed Darvin Ham with a one-year contract (1 million).
- Signed Tremaine Folwkes with a one-year contract (minimum).
- Obtained Rasheed Wallace (last year of deal, 18 million dollars) and Mike James (last year of deal, 3 million dollars) in a three-way trade where Boston received Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter, and the Pistons 1st round draft pick in 2004 (Tony Allen, Oklahoma State), and Atlanta received Chris Mills (from Boston), Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura, and draft pick acquired in Rodney White deal (Josh Smith, Oak Hill Academy).
- Claimed Lindsey Hunter off of waivers from Boston.
2004:
-Re-signed Rasheed Wallace to a five-year, 65 million dollar deal.
- Signed Antonio McDyess with a four-year, 23 million dollar contract.
- Signed Ronald Dupree to a two-year, 2.1 million dollar contract.
- Re-signed Lindsey Hunter with a two-year, 2.1 million dollar contract.
- Re-signed Darvin Ham with a one-year, 1.1 million dollar contract.
- Obtained Carlos Arroyo (4 years, 16 million) from Utah Jazz for Elden Campbell.
- Claimed Elden Campbell off waivers from New Jersey Nets.
2005:
- Signed Maurice Evans to a 4-year, 7.5 million dollar deal.
- Obtained Dale Davis with a 2-year, 4.5 million dollar deal.
- Extended Tayshaun Prince with a six-year, 47 million dollar deal.
Dumars Era:
2000-01: 32-50 - 2nd losing season in four years.
2001-02: 50-32 - First division le since 1990, first playoff series win since 1991.
2002-03: 50-32 - First #1 seed since 1990, first Conference Finals appearance since 1991.
2003-04: 54-28 - First NBA Championship since 1990.
2004-05: 54-28 - First consecutive Conference Championships since 1988-1990.
2005-06: 39-7 - Best start in franchise history.
Pre-Dumars (as GM):
1999-00: 42-40 - First series sweep since 1996.
1998-99: 29-21 - Second consecutive playoff series loss to Atlanta Hawks.
1997-98: 37-45 - First lottery pick (Bonzi Wells) since Grant Hill.
1996-97: 54-28 - Most wins in regular season since 1990.
1995-96: 46-36 - First trip to playoffs since 1992.
1994-95: 28-54 - Second consecutive 20-win season.
Last edited by Darrin; 02-05-2006 at 11:08 PM.
I certainly give Dumars his props -- he's done a fantastic job.
As a Spurs fan, though, I wonder why it is that R.C. Buford and the rest of the Spurs front office has STILL yet to be rewarded with an Executive of the Year award and rarely gets any mention with regard to that award. Awards obviously aren't everything, but someone in San Antonio's front office deserves some kind of lasting recognition for building a champion, rebuilding a champion, and then rebuilding again.
Dumars gets that national love every year; R.C. doesn't.
RC is a fantastic GM. Tim Duncan would make any GMs' job much easier. But, so would Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson, and Jason Kidd. And, those players' respective teams haven't had the same success. I have no problem with anyone feeling RC Buford is the best GM in the NBA. I also don't have a problem with anyone claiming his success is largely due to the fortune of landing Tim Duncan.
I think Joe Dumars has done an exceptional job as well. He's made his share of mistakes, but his overall vision is the reason for Detroit's success. And, his ability to somehow make mistakes or misfortune not become a belaboring problem is one of his strengths, e.g. getting Ben Wallace when Grant Hill decided to leave, dumping poor draft picks Mateen Cleaves and Rodney White for anything. As it stands now, Darko appears to be a poor decision. Again, hindsight is 20/20. I'd rather wait a few years to really evaluate how poor a draft pick he was. And, if the Pistons continue to contend for championships over the next few years, I would even assert that drafting Darko cannot be viewed as a total failure of a draft pick. I am not convinced that Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, or Chris Bosh would have been better picks in terms of being able to fit within the vision of Joe Dumars with seemless chemistry, for a number of reasons. Wade may have caused a controversy over who should start. Chris Bosh may have made the Rasheed Wallace trade unnecessary. And, Carmelo could have been a locker room cancer. We don't know if drafting any one of them could have prevented that run at a championship in 2004. Now, they are absolutely much better players than Darko, but you just never know how they would have changed the dynamics of the team and if they would have allowed the Pistons to still win the championship and a return to the finals in 2005. I know ... it's all conjecture.
I also agree that Colangelo should be rated higher. He has been a great evaluator of talent and has had a great vision in assembling the team he has now.He has been somewhat unconventional, just like Dumars. But, the way he built his team has been very impressive.
RC by a nose. Spurs have never whiffed on a top 3 pick. Dumars has.
Darko Milicic is 20 years old, and plays behind Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, and Antonio McDyess. There's no doubt that he hasn't lived up to expectations yet. But, if Darko was truly a "whiff" of a top 3 draft pick, people should really wait until he gets his opportunity to play to truly evaluate him. There are players in his draft class that are better players now, but considering the team he is on, even in his third year, it's not completely fair to evaluate whether or not he's lived up to his draft number.
That's only because Dumars had a national repuation after winning the 1989 Finals MVP, and when Grant Hill left, it was assumed the Pistons would go through an era like the Bulls did after Jordan left. When the Pistons won 32 games (they were picked to win 10-15), and then won the back-to-back division les, and the NBA Championship, the press looked for an explanation and saw Dumars had made some incredible moves as a general manager.
It's not like the front office doesn't get love from the national press, it's just that Gregg Popovich gets all the credit, not RC Buford. It's assumed that Popovich, since he gave up the General Manager position as a coach, has a similar relationship with Buford that Doug Collins and Rick Sund had - Pop targets a player or a need that can be fixed, and Buford does the grunt work of negotiating the contracts and arranging the specifics of the salary cap. I don't think that's true, but if you asked 10 people who casually follow basketball, they would think Pop has more influence than a normal coach.
If you can't beat out a 90 YO Dice with one knee for some PT, you're a whiff as a top 3 pick.
90-years-old? Antonio McDyess (Septeber 7, 1974), Ben Wallace, (September 10, 1974), and Rasheed Wallace (September 17, 1974) are all seperated by a mere 10 days - they are all 31-years-old. That means that Darko Milicic is battling someone who has 11 years on him and is in the prime of his career.
And McDyess has played in 123 of the 128 games he's played in Detroit. He's not playing on one wheel, he hasn't slowed down and he doesn't limp up and down the court. He still skies for rebounds and blocked shots, although not as common as it once was. He's the Pistons Sixth Man. I watched Christian Laettner after his achilles surgery and Chris Webber after his knee ailment - Dyess is as healthy as can be.
I don't dispute the latter point, but what is funny is that neither Pop nor Buford has ever gotten serious run for the Executive of the Year award, despite the fact that they've rebulit this team in whole once and in part a second time. They've been helped by the fact that Tim Duncan is here, but even that was a matter that could have been screwed up, but wasn't. I admire the moves that Dumars has made, but I think its terrible that the shrewd moves that the Spurs braintrust has made since 1998 (in terms of managing the cap, identifying need free agents, and finding quality with late picks) haven't garnered either Pop or Buford any sort of historical recognition.
Even if its a lifetime achievement award at this point, it's richly deserved and terribly late.
Wasn't Gregg Popovich recognized as the 2002-03 Coach of the Year?
Sure, and that was well-deserved as well. My point is that Popovich and Buford have managed feats that are on a par with what Dumars has done in his tenure in Detroit, but somehow they aren't recognized for that; the Coach of the Year award is irrelevant to the point, since it doesn't directly recognize the supreme management efforts of the Spurs front office.
I'm not horribly concerned with this, but I do think that the front office efforts are a huge part of what's happened in San Antonio since 1998, that those efforts are basically unparalleled in this decade, and that those efforts deserve recognition as part of the legacy of this team.
Darko Milicic is 20 years old. He's on a championship caliber team with all-star caliber power forwards and centers. Until he gets the playing time to prove himself, you can't call him a whiff or a bust. It's just too early. In his third season in the NBA, Jermaine couldn't beat out Brian Grant or Kelvin Cato. Jermaine O'Neal looks like a steal today compared to Erick Dampier, Lorenzen Wright, or Samaki Walker, who were drafted before him.
By the way, Antonio McDyess has essentialy fully recovered from his knee injuries, and is considered one of the better back-up power forwards in the league. He is regarded as a great free agent pick-up by Dumars. He averages 5.0 rebounds per game in less than 20 minuter a game. In other words, he averages more rebounds than every player on the Spurs roster not named Tim Duncan in less than 20 minutes a game ... on what you consider is one knee. And McDyess (9/7/74) is 31 years old, about 1 and 1/2 years older than Tim Duncan (4/25/76).
Right now, Darko does not look like a good draft pick. RIGHT NOW. If by the time McDyess, Rasheed, and/or Ben start to log fewer minutes, Darko is able to contribute more, to the extent that by the time he becomes a starting caliber player after those other guys retire, he instantly becomes a decent pick. And, as long as the Pistons continue to be an elite NBA team that contends for NBA les, the draft pick, in essence, cannot really be viewed as that bad of a pick. It just can't.
Last edited by JamStone; 02-05-2006 at 11:47 PM.
You mean the type of recognition in the original article of this thread that states that RC Buford is the best GM in the NBA???
Darko has an NBA championship ring. The above four players do not.
The Detroit Pistons have won an NBA le, two NBA finals appearances, and currently have the best record in the NBA ... in the three seasons since drafting Darko Milicic. Mistake or not, I think Joe Dumars, the Detroit Pistons organization, and Detroit Pistons fans can live with the Darko draft pick.
Last edited by JamStone; 02-05-2006 at 11:51 PM.
Since we're arguing over who's the top GM (meaning the loser is still better than 28 other GMs), there are very little arguments to be made here. My point is that since this is a perception vote by the media, recognizing Popovich as Coach of the Year was, in part, that recognition you say is lacking.
Still, if I had to list the candidates this year San Antonio (RC Buford), Phoenix (Jerry Colangelo), New Orleans (Jeff Bower), and Detroit (Joe Dumars) are right there. I have Dumars ranked this low because he has won the award before. That should be proof of how much politics is involved in postseason awards.
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