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San Antonio is full of tight wads so with saying that, build a bigger stadium and sell cheaper tickets....
Whether it be baseball or football, if you build it, they will come..
Vexler and Wally's sit in were talking today about whether it would be wiser to spend resources on luring an NFL team rather than an MLB team, and it got me thinking.
For so long, proponents of NFL in SA have been looking at it the wrong way: whether or not San Antonio can support a team. Until recently (the last 3 years or so), I was in the camp that said no. These days, however, I think San Antonio can. However, whether or not we can support them is irrelevant.
"Supporting" an NFL team means being able to fill a stadium and sell luxury boxes, but more importantly sell merchandise and television ads. These are things that modern San Antonio can do. In the last 10 years, we have built the the corporate base and middle class population to be able to do so. Sure, we'd also be able to sell San Antonio <Insert Nickname Here> jerseys and T-shirts, and get Henry's Puffy Taco or Jordan Ford to buy ad space during games.
However, any business thinking moving their product from one market to another (in this case, the markets are mutual exclusive... you can't have a team in two cities) can't simply base their decision on whether or not that product will sell in the new market. What is important is how the new market performs relative to other options. In the case of San Antonio, the NFL already *has* the market, so the incremental nugget of cash out there is small.
For a business like the NFL, relocation and expansion decisions need to be based on the incremental revenue such a move creates - which is ultimately a function of the incremental fans that the move creates. All putting a team in San Antonio does is replace Cowboys jersey sales with San Antonio <Insert Nickname Here> jersey sales. Any new fans and revenue created are small in nature.
Now, I am not a baseball fan and I'd much rather see the NFL here - but I strongly believe that the MLB makes sense, for the reasons I've described above. Sure, it is a more risky proposition than bringing an NFL team here - but there is a bigger reward out there to capture. Yeah, there are Astros and Rangers fans here in SA (as well as fans of other teams), but not nearly to the extent there are Cowboys and Texans (or other teams) fans. Part of that is just the NFL being the nation's most popular sport, but the main part of it is that San Antonio has not traditionally been a huge baseball market.
That is where the nugget lies. From the perspective of a business owner, you don't want to go into a market that is already saturated, you want a market that is short in supply of your product but long in potential demand. That is where the Marlins and the MLB come in. Every person in San Antonio who is not already a big MLB fan (probably most people, including me) is a potential demand source. I don't like MLB very much now, but with a local team to support, I could. If the Marlins put out a good enough product, they will create lots of new fans, exactly what the ownership along with MLB is looking for.
Like I said, MLB is riskier than the NFL. I think San Antonio would support a mediocre to occassionally crappy NFL team. On the other hand, I think they won't have as much patience with an MLB team. That puts the burden on the Marlins (or whatever team comes here) to put out a good product (that's the risk). But the risk adjusted rewards for MLB are greater than the NFL.
As much as I hate to say it, MLB is the right choice.
San Antonio is full of tight wads so with saying that, build a bigger stadium and sell cheaper tickets....
Whether it be baseball or football, if you build it, they will come..
I think it would be harder to sell out or come close to selling out 80 home week day/night games in baseball compared to only 8 football games on a Sunday afternoon.
Until the team hasn't won for a few years, at which point fan support will dry up and the team will move elsewhere. Check your pre-DRob Spurs history.
And I agree that 8 games are going to be an easier sell than 80-odd.
Congratulations, you all missed the point.
Last edited by scott; 03-30-2006 at 10:50 PM.
Buy low was the point, correct? ... and give the marketing folks a big budget?
We already showed we can support the NFL when the Saints were here. We can't even sell out Wolf stadium with the Missions. I agree that MLB would be a huge risk. Playing in front of crowds in the 3 to 4 thousand in a huge stadium just won't work. No one wants to sit out in the 100 degree heat of South Texas and burn. We are all use to air conditioning. That's the point! The inside of a NFL stadium rules over outside baseball in South Texas. For me, it's the NFL or nothing.
San Antonio can not only support an NFL franchise we can put together a winning Team culture.
Anyone that talks against our city getting a team is ed up. We want need and deserve NFL football. Those ooposed go yourselfs.
Texas is not a baseball state, nor is this a baseball town. Football is king here and always will be. We're never going to "grow into" a baseball team and support it. Baseball is lame, and there are far too many games. Baseball WILL fail here. Small markets do NOT prosper in the cap-free zone that is MLB. People will eventually realize that they would rather spend $800 on 8 $100 dollar NFL home tickets than 80 $10 tickets for a sad MLB team.
I think this town will either get an NFL team, or it will remain a one sport town. SD and Jax are our best bets. That also allows Jerry's Kids to continue to receive their piped in football crack, since both prospective teams teams are AFC.
psstWe can't even sell out Wolf stadium with the Missions. I agree that MLB would be a huge risk. Playing in front of crowds in the 3 to 4 thousand in a huge stadium just won't work. No one wants to sit out in the 100 degree heat of South Texas and burn. We are all use to air conditioning. That's the point! The inside of a NFL stadium rules over outside baseball in South Texas. For me, it's the NFL or nothing
genius
they play baseball indoors with what they call a retractable roof.
Ever heard of Minute Maid Park?
Go to Houston and tell me they don't LOVE baseball, the Astros are right there with the Texans in popularity.Texas is not a baseball state, nor is this a baseball town.
But I got to the main part of your bull arguement
You don't like baseball.Baseball is lame, and there are far too many games
Thats fine.
But don't on everyone else that is excited about this oppurtunity, and WANTS to get this done.
The plan here is already low budget. No roof at all, and 38,700 seating.psst
genius
they play baseball indoors with what they call a retractable roof.
Ever heard of Minute Maid Park?
You just don't get it TPark. Houston and Dallas are a LOT bigger and can use a wider fanbase to support a team for 81 home games. The Spurs struggle and market their asses off to fill a ~19000 seat arena for only 41 games, and they're ing champions! The Marlins will be , just like every other small market MLB team.
The season ticket value is SO much better for football (see my example of $800 comparisons above), and that is crucial in a marginal multi sports team market like SA.
Low budget?
David Samson is the one who said it would cost 310 million to build a open air stadium.
Also, 38,700 is at about average range for new baseball stadiums.
Look at Minute Maid Park - 40,000
Comerica Park - 40,000
PNC Park - 38,365
And 38,700 is an increase for the Marlins/Dolphin Stadium: 36,331
You just don't get it TPark. Houston and Dallas are a LOT bigger and can use a wider fanbase to support a team for 81 home games.
You can do that here too.
They struggle? Show me the data that backs that hyperbole up. The Spurs have sold out every single game this season at home. Yeah, big ign struggle.The Spurs struggle and market their asses off to fill a ~19000 seat arena for only 41 games,
We can use Houston and Dallas larger populations here to support our team? That's a good one. Their metro areas are multiples of ours in terms of populations.
Just got something stating that for an upcoming game, they are offering $10 tickets to a few thousand fans. This is within sight of the playoffs for a team that has won two of the last three championships, and they are marking tickets down to sell them?
In a large market championship NBA franchise (Let's use Chicago during the Jordan years) , getting tickets for a regular season game would be like getting Finals tickets here without owning season tix, and getting playoff tickets was impossible. All they have to do is work the phones until they sell the max percentage of season tickets, and then wait for the phone and web orders for the rest of the regular season tickets sell out. The club sells every ticket they have available, and the only phone work is inbound. The tickets basically sell themselves, and the Marketing dept concentrates on advertising revenues, NOT how to sell tickets for the crappy games.
With the Marlins, you'd be talking about twice the number of tickets for twice the number of games in a marginal MLB market with a team on a budget. The stadium designed is open air, so if you think the Rangers normally swoon late, just wait for this. MPAM (Marlins plummet after May)? Count on it. Games from late July to early September will be on earth to attend.
I just don't see it working. You do. Neither of us is likely to convince the other.
So explain to me why the Lakers didn't sell out every game during their three-peat era with Shaq and Kobe.
There's ying to everyones yang.
What does that have to do with whether SA can field an NFL team?
Damn right they did - and you make a very good point.
Here's another one for you:
Baseball and basketball's season barely overlap.
From a marketing standpoint, a near necessity in SA.
We're not getting an NFL team anytime soon. Heck we had trouble trying to sell out 3 Saints games.
Actually, considering the advance notice ( a week or maybe a bit more?), only the first game was "trouble". Considering that there was hostility, if not active resistance from Jerry's Kids, who knew they would lose their weekly Cowboy television crack if the Saints parked here permanently, SA did rather well.
If SA can actually lure an AFC team like Jacksonville (playing in a college stadium, the refurbished Gatorbowl, now called AllTel) who's naming rights commitment expires in 2007, or the Chargers who want a replacement for 40 YO Qualcomm Stadium from a city that is slipping into bankruptcy, I think SA will have a slam dunk success.
Reading between the lines, the Marlins thing is basically dead anyway. They'll only move if FSSW, which already broadcasts two teams, will outpay their current TV contract from a market with 800,000 more televisions.
Why does it have to be about your point? There are many factors here, uhh you know...
The city already built a stadium to lure an NFL team. That worked really great. Said stadium is now outdated and people are suggesting the city do the exact same thing again? Fool me twice...
So, what are you trying to say? Have you heard that a baseball stadium to be built in San Antonio for the Marlins is going to rival Minute Maid Park, or come close to it? I bet the answer to that is NO! What baseball only dome stadiums are there? The proposed baseball only stadium to lure the Marlins is going to be an open hot air, and sun drenched seating nightmare. Unless all the games are played under the lights starting at 9pm, it's going to be like . Everyone will be miserable watching them play during the day. Unless you like that sort of thing.
Houston is only a good baseball town when the Astros are in the World Series hunt... And it helps that the Texans suck. Otherwise, it's not a great baseball town by any means. I grew up there during the nineties... Craig Biggio should be a Ripkinesque icon, but I'll bet 50% of the city's population wouldn't recognize him if he was in the same room.
Houston is a crappy sports town period, unless you're winning.
And yes, everyone did miss scott's point, which is an interesting one. Look at it from the vantage point of the league. Is the NFL going to make more money by putting a team in SA? Probably not. Is MLB goig to make more money by putting a team in SA? Maybe.
Going to a game at Minute Maid is SOOOOOOOOO much better than the Astrodome was... that's part of the reason for the popularity... they drew good crowds even before these last two playoff runs.
The quality of the stadium is key. If the Marlins are just going for bare-bones type facility, either they're not serious or they're going to fail. It has to be a place where people want to spend time even if they're not necessarily huge baseball fans. It doesn't need to be minor-league campy, but it does need to be an attractive, fan-friendly facility with amenities.
True. They have stepped up the "fun" factor at the games.
I couldn't believe it when they took down the scoreboard at the Astrodome.
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