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He'd better. If they win without him I'll have some gloating to do on these forums.
In particular, this week?
I'm looking your way, sickdsm....
He'd better. If they win without him I'll have some gloating to do on these forums.
Last game i watched was Utah, If he didn't play after that, i still think he does a little for the home crowd. Otherwise it will be minimal.
Its supposed to be to let the young'uns get some time and see what we got but it has more to do with the lottery pick. Apparently the pick is NOT lotto protected, only the first 10 spots, otherwise the clippers get it.
McCants is looking good
yeah but he still gets abused one on one Defense, team d is getting decent
Don't they realize people have Fantasy League Championships riding on decisions like these?
Honestly, people need to prioritize.
haha
He shouldn't. This season is lost, and he's not 23 anymore.
At home on Easter against the Spurs??
nope. Season over and he's approaching 30. Put him on the IL.
This is the exception to what everyone says about the players quitting. He has given everything he has had for 10 years and has guided them through some tough days in the franchise. This is the franchise failing the player. They already quit on him, and that's why I think he is justified in demanding a trade, taking the rest of the season off, etc. It's a once-in-a-lifetime situation.
The team has paid him over a hundred and fifty million dollars since he's been in the league. That's about 80 million more than Duncan has made. That team doesn't owe him jack .
So that money buys patience with an owner who is suspended for a season, and GM who's forced to take a leave of absence because they cannot figure out how to negotiate a freaking contract with Joe Smith?
That money buys him the patience as prospect like Stephon Marbury is traded for a much older Terrell Brandon?
That is supposed to comfort a compe or when Sam Cassell is helping the Clippers to their first winning season in 14 years, Chauncey Billups is helping the Pistons chase yet another Championship, this time with Flip Saunders as coach, and his hopes rest with Rashad McCants and Marko Jaric?
When your knees are shot and some little rat who never played professional ball is talking about your career and says "He choked. He should've given up the money that NO ONE ELSE IN HIS POSITION WOULD GIVE UP!"
"The lottery is too much. Here's half of it back so I we can have the best schools in the nation." That just doesn't happen.
When he played every game when his best friend on the team (Malik Sealy) is dead. Working out, going to games, where it's supposed to be a sanctuary, you are reminded of your best friend. But it's okay, because he's made 50 million more than Tim Duncan.
They lost a ton of picks as a result of that. It might have been a wash compared with having to pay Joe Smith 90 million dollars over seven years. Obviously that money buys patience, since KG didn't demand a trade when he discovered the outrage of his team sabotaging their future like that.
That trade resulted in Brandon and the pick that became Wally Szczerbiak, which seems like an improvement to me. Maybe they should have kept Ray Allen, who they traded for Marbury.
With all these names we are throwing around, it's funny that the belief persists that KG has always had subpar players around him, when those guys go on to become good players, some great, after they leave KG. Doesn't anyone want to stay with him? Billups voided the last year of his contract and left a starting role for the Timberwolves to sign a contract to come off the bench for the Pistons behind Chucky Atkins. Free agents take pay cuts to play with Duncan.
Hmm... so the money doesn't buy loyalty to the team, but it also hamstrings the team, and KG can't win no matter how many good players come and go, but it's always someone else's fault that he never wins.
Nobody is suggesting that he give back any money, I'm simply suggesting that the team has never stopped trying to gather talent that actually can play with him, and has always made sure he was paid, even before he was a MVP caliber player. KG never seems to make the players around him better, and there's been a steady stream of them, even without the five picks they lost.
Unless the team killed Malik Sealy, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Again, he didn't ask for a trade out of bereavement, so the money must have been a good salve.
You obviously don't have to agree with me, but Kevin Garnett looks like the worst return on an investment in the history of the NBA. That makes it a little difficult to accept anyone crying about how the team "failed him" or "quit on him". The team hasn't made the best choices, but they haven't made the worst choices either, and nothing has worked. Everything seemed to implode with Cassell and Sprewell. I'm not sure how it wouldn't have, to be honest. It's not like anyone was surprised when it happened.
This is my point. Whether you think it's the money or not, he showed confidence in the organization when it made the most heinous -up in the history of NBA front offices. He's shown extreme patience with this organization. Imagine if Vince Carter or Tracy McGrady had been apart of the Wolves at that time.
So KG's contract makes the T-Wolves hamstrung, but soaking all the money into Brandon and Szczerbiak doesn't play into this at all? Kevin McHale has overpaid for almost everyone; the wrong players.
Let's not forget they selected Szczerbiak over the likes of Rip Hamilton, Shawn Marion, Andre Miller, Jason Terry, Corey Maggette, that guy in Sacramento who's name I don't write, James Posey, and Andrei Kirilenko.
The T-Wolves wouldn't guarantee that Billups would be the starter at point guard if Terrell Brandon came back healthy. Brandon never played another game in the NBA.
Chucky Atkins had been abused to the tune of 12 points and 7 assists from Kenny Anderson while he couldn't score over 5 points in all but one game in the 2002 playoff series against the Celtics. The major hole for the Pistons was at point guard. Rick Carlisle used Bill Davidson's private jet to meet with Billups personally after Dumars had called him at 12:01 AM on July 1, the first day they could negotiate with free agents. They offered him the maximum contract the Pistons could - six years of the MLE.
Does that sound like the Pistons were signing a backup?
A 26-year-old free agent making 2 million a season took the financial opportunity before him and made sure he'd be in a position to keep playing for a long time in this league. Chucky Atkins even got in on the act having to assure his teammate from Orlando that he'd spell Billups off the bench.
Name me a free agent that hadn't played for the organization under the age of 30 that took a chance on the Spurs before they won a championship. It's the rings, playing with Duncan is secondary. Expecting Tom Gugliotta and Chauncey Billups to take paycuts is ridiculous.
He left 35 million dollars on the table with his last contract. He went from making 22.5 million a season in 2002-03 to making 15.8 in 2004-05. Name me another star that would be willing to take 30% paycut in order to make his team compe ive.
And yet he did.
Ask Latrell Sprewell if he always gets paid. Ask Bobby Jackson how he feels about playing in Minnesota. There are too many people who have said they liked playing with Garnett, but couldn't stand that front office (Tom Gugliotta for one, Stephon Marbury for another). How about letting Billups go for the idea of playing Terrell Brandon.
They made sure he was paid, and KG made sure they could depend on him every night (Three straight seasons of a full 82 games, just broke a steak of 351 straight starts), injured or not. He vouched he wouldn't leave the team if they moved to New Orleans (in 1997) and he left money on the table when he was set to be the most sought after free agent in the 2004 offseason. Instead of reveling in that, instead of saying he would take a wait-and-see at ude for the Wolves re-building, like Grant Hill and Chris Webber before him, he signed a contract extension so they could depend on him again, and make moves secure in the fact he would still be on the team (helping to sign Michael Olowokandi, re-signing Troy Hudson and Trenton Hassell).
I don't know how to respond to that when countless players have had their best seasons, in terms of winning and individual numbers, playing alongside him. If anything, he has been credited with being too unselfish.People don't come to Minnesota playing their best basketball and falloff the NBA map. Too many players have made their names in Minnesota.
It has to do with this at ude that isn't unique to this argument that these aren't people, rather they are commodities and that the money should solve everything. He stepped up, the Wolves had their best season at that point, a season when he could've gone the way of a Tracy McGrady, talking about how too many people in his life have died.
When KG had his first winning season, so did the Minnesota Timberwolves. When KG made his first postseason appearance, so did the Minnesota Timberwolves. According to David Stern, the New Orleans Timberwolves were about 95% done when he refused to approve the move. He said there was no deal sweetner, he stood on principle and said the Wolves would not move. That's how badly the team was losing money:
Overall Record:
1989-1995: 126-366 (.256)
1995-2006: 468-397 (.541)
Playoffs:
1989-1995: 0 playoff appearances
1995-2006: 9 playoff appearances (One Conference Finals Appearance)
Regular season high:
1989-1995: 29-53 (1990-91)
1995-2006: 58-24 (2003-04)
All-Time Timberwolves Stats:
Points
1. Kevin Garnett - 17,337
2. Sam Mitc - 7,161
Points Per Game
1. Tony Campbell - 20.6
2. Kevin Garnett - 20.4
Rebounds
1. Kevin Garnett - 9,567
2. Sam Mitc - 3,020
Rebounds Per Game
1. Kevin Garnett - 11.2
2. Tom Gugliotta - 8.6
Blocks
1. Kevin Garnett - 1,450
2. Rasho Nesterovic - 373
Steals
1. Kevin Garnett - 1,193
2. Sam Mitc - 449
Assists
1. Kevin Garnett - 3,833
2. Pooh Richardson - 1,973
Field Goals Made
1. Kevin Garnett - 6,397
2. Sam Mitc - 2,664
Free Throws Made
1. Kevin Garnett - 3,311
2. Sam Mitc - 1,173
Games Started
1. Kevin Garnett - 814
2. Doug West - 371
Games
1. Kevin Garnett - 851
2. Sam Mitc - 757
Minutes
1. Kevin Garnett - 32,540
2. Sam Mitc - 18,394
The fun I like to do with that list? I cut all of KG's numbers in half, and see if he would still be the career leader.
This isn't Tim Duncan or Shaquille O'Neal or Ben Wallace. This is George Gervin, George Mikan, or Dave Bing. He's made them a legitimate franchise, compe ively and financially. Look at Charlotte and especially Vancouver for what happens when an expansion franchise can't find that player. He's been a solid investment for the franchise. He isn't overpaid and he hasn't been a letdown. He isn't a ballhog. He doesn't quit on his team or miss games. All he's done is show up everyday and give maximum effort. After 11 years of watching that, he's built up some sympathy with me. Unlike an Iverson who is hard to build around and complains on an almost consistent basis, he's been professional to a fault. He simply hasn't risen to the bait the media puts out there. That's why 90% of his interview with John Thompson was silence.
It will hurt the franchise and KG's career for them to keep things as they are. They are being extremely short-sighted or they are trying to keep KG's price high (avoid the Shaquille O'Neal without getting D-Wade-type deals). I hope its the latter.
Last edited by Darrin; 04-11-2006 at 07:30 AM.
To clarify a few points on some of Minnesota's moves that have been mentioned ...
1. From what I remember, and Minnesota fan correct me if I'm wrong, but Stephon Marbury essentially asked for a trade because he didn't want to play with Kevin Garnett anymore since KG was getting all the spotlight. You can't blame McHale or the Timberwolves for trading a malcontent like Marbury. And, at the time, Terrell Brandon was a top tier point guard in the league, so it wasn't a bad trade AT THE TIME.
2. Darris already hit on this, but Chauncey Billups was told by Flip Saunders and Kevin McHale that if Terrell Brandon were to return healthy for the 2002-03 season, Brandon would get the starting spot. Joe Dumars and Rick Carlisle promised Chauncey an "OPPORTUNITY" to earn the starting spot in Detroit. They didn't guarantee that spot, but they gave the chance to earn it. That's all Chauncey wanted. The Timberwolves basically said Chauncey would NOT start if Brandon came back.
There are a lot of fair criticisms to be put on Kevin Garnett, and all of the post-season failures. But, management, especially the Joe Smith fiasco must be considered when evaluating KG as a player and how he helps his team win. It's unfair to compare KG to someone like Tim Duncan because Tim Duncan had a League MVP and superstar caliber center in David Robinson to mentor him into the league. Tim Duncan also had great veteran players like Avery Johnson and Mario Elie to not only be the vocal leaders but to be the support system as Duncan eased into the league. KG came to basically a brand new franchise that was starting from scratch. And, just when they started to put pieces together, the Joe Smith scandal happened. I think it's unfair to say KG hasn't made his teammates better because there rarely has been consistency on the roster for KG to really do that.
Now, there are plenty of criticisms that KG should face. But, a lot of things should be taken into context before making KG appear to be the "WORST RETURN ON INVESTMENT" in the history of the NBA. Just even look at the current contracts of the likes of Grant Hill, Tim Thomas, and Keith Van Horn and you have to understand how silly a statement that is to call KG's contract worst than those. Look at Carlos Boozer and Brian Grant. Heck, look at the New York Knicks roster and you'll find several contracts that were worse investments. Don't tell me that KG even comes close to being the worst. At least he plays the games. At least he puts up numbers year in and year out. At least he sells tickets. That was such an assinine statement, it takes away any credibility of the person who said it. A few years ago, KG even restructured his contract so that the Wolves could afford to bring in better free agents.
Most of the problems the Timberwolves face should lie directly on the shoulders of Kevin McHale and the rest of the Timberwolves' management and personnel people.
The perfect place for KG to go is to the Lakers and play with Kobe in a trade for something like Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Chris Mihm, and Aaron McKie (trade filler).
I don't know if Kevin McHale as a Boston Celtic at heart would do that for the Lakers.
I think there are any number of "perfect" suitors. For instance, Chicago, New York, Sacramento, Phoenix, and Washington all could make arguments for KG.
All of this is true, but managing the cap is something that McHale went into with open eyes. It would've been more strategic move to land someone who is as young an inexpensive as a Stephon Marbury (they had to re-sign him to an extension before trading him). Unfortunately, he just freely spent like he had all the cap space in the world. KG bailed them out once, but he can't do it again.
That is flat wrong. You are re-writing history. There's nothing else to say. I don't know where you got that impression, but it's wrong. Chauncey Billups was brought in to be the starting point guard the way that Chris Paul was brought into New Orleans, Gary Payton with the LA Lakers. They both had reasonably capable backups (Speedy Claxton, Derek Fisher) but they would've been a disappointment if they weren't a starter. Billups would've found himself traded if Atkins took over as a starter.
The Pistons chose him over the likes of Jeff McInnis and Andre Miller (Cavs shopping him in trades at the time). Starting point guard was the weakness; Atkins was too small to guard guys like Billups. It cost the Pistons a lot of games, and a chance at the Conference Finals in 2001-02. I've got the newpapers and quotes from the time to prove it.
I only see Washington as a viable place for KG out of the teams you mentioned, because they have pieces to offer in a trade, any combination of Jamison, Etan Thomas, Jared Jeffries, Andray Blatche, and Antonio Daniels.
Chicago may be his hometown, but it even if the Bulls didn't give up any player for KG, the Bulls still wouldn't be le contenders. And, of course, the Bulls would have to give up something, Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, maybe Tyson Chandler and a draft pick or draft picks.
New York is a disaster. I don't think that's a perfect situation for KG at all. Talent is there. The at ude and mindset is not.
Sacramento is not a perfect place for KG, and the Kings don't have anything to give in return.
Phoenix won't give up Amare for KG, and with his knee injury, the Wolves would probably be hesitant to do so anyway. The Suns might give up Marion, but would that be enough for KG? They don't have any high draft picks to give up either.
Lakers could offer a borderline allstar caliber player in Lamar Odom, a big prospect in Andrew Bynum, a starting center in Mihm, and a late first round draft pick this season and possibly future pick/s. LA was made for a player like KG. KG can be the second fiddle to Kobe, which is perfect because KG can carry the team and Kobe can close the game. Plus, KG lives in LA in the summer.
The whole idea was that Chauncey Billups would in fact earn the starting spot. But, I heard in a Chauncey Billups interview that all he was promised was the "chance" to earn it. He wasn't promised the starting position. In fact, case in point, Chauncey was fully healthy at the beginning of the 2002-03 season and yet he didn't start until the 8th or 9th game of the season. Chucky started the first 7-8 games because Chauncey had not yet earned the starting spot.
That's not re-writing history. That's what happened.
I've got the Knicks-Pistons season opener in 2002-03 on tape: Chauncey Billups started the game. I have the Nuggets-Pistons matchup that was the first game the Pistons had on TNT in the 2002-03 season. He started that game. He was suspended by the league for throwing a ball at the official in a matchup with the Hornets, he then sat out from November 20th to November 30th (7 games) with a sprained ankle.
He'd make headlines because Dumars would talk to him before a game against Chicago about being "the man." He would have to be more agressive. His problems had very little to do with his injury; he just wasn't playing agressive Chauncey-like basketball.
First 25 games: 11.0 ppg, 3.2 apg, 3.0 rpg.
Last 49 games: 18.9 ppg, 4.1 apg, 4.0 rpg.
The turning point would come in New Orleans when, with Ben Wallace sitting out and the Pistons struggling to win the game, he'd take over offensively hitting huge shots for the first time in a Pistons uniform. He'd finish with a season-high 32 points, 4 assists, and 3 rebounds. He'd make 8 points in overtime, and nail the free throws that gave the Pistons a 101-99 OT victory. He'd have good moments before that, but it was in that game he found his confidence and consistency.
Once again, I don't know how you got this impression (I'd like to see the quote from that interview) but it's not true. Dumars has said that "No one had said to (Chauncey), 'it's your team; you are our guy' until he got here." While he dusts off knowing what Ben Wallace could be, he says he saw it in Chauncey Billups. He says the two deals he felt most comfortable when they happened were the Billups signing and the Rasheed trade.
Tim Duncan has started virtually every single game of his career. That's not exactly being "eased" into the league. Duncan also had 4 years of college to prepare him. I'm not sure how it's Duncan's fault that KG didn't do better on the SAT.
Okay, I'll admit it was a poor choice of words. There is always such a line of people ready to make excuses for KG that I have a tendency to fall over the other end. I especially can't stand when people say idiotic like "well, if he had been playing for the Spurs" as though Duncan has just been stealing money all these years and letting everyone else win rings for him. Basically your entire first paragraph above.
At some point, the 150 million dollar superstar should get part of the blame. If nothing else, the personnel people should be questioned for continuing to keep said superstar around.
I believe the point is there was a powerful leadership presence with the Spurs when he arrived. The Wolves had no such support system for Garnett. It was his decision to come out early, but this is was the first high school player drafted into the NBA in the modern era. No one knew what this kid would need.
This only sounds like Duncan is stealing money if you think KG is stealing money. Garnett is just as tough and talented as Duncan, and the insinuation is that they are peers who have been dealt a different set of cir stances. Such as, if Larry Bird had been a teammate of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar instead of Magic, Bird would have won more Championships. It's a "what if?" argument, but not one that is meant to discredit Duncan's talents.
He acts like a man. He takes responsibility even for things that aren't his fault. He doesn't blame the coaching staff or curse out his teammates or blame managment for their mistakes. He doesn't demand trades, even when he could and lose very little support from the fans. When his team loses, it is his fault. That is why this fan rushes to his defense. He's a rare talent that is being wasted in Minnesota.
Darrin, you were right about Chauncey starting from the start of the season in 2002-03. I looked it up. I guess for some reason, I just remembered Chucky beginning the season starting and Chauncey coming off the bench. I'm not sure why I remember it that way.
At any rate, I do remember Chauncey saying in some interview something to the effect that he was just happy with the opportunity to earn the starting point guard position. Again, it's from my memory, so I don't know where to get the interview. I do believe that both Dumars and Billups planned that Chauncey WOULD in fact earn the starting spot. But, diplomatically, I could have sworn that it was put in such a way that he would have to earn it over Chucky. But, I was wrong on my first point, so who knows?
Obstructed,
Just because a player starts from day 1, it does not mean that that player isn't eased into the NBA. Tell me it didn't help to have David Robinson, Avery Johnson, and Mario Elie there the first few years. Come on. You know it did. I don't take anything away from Tim Duncan's success. And, I don't imply that if Kevin Garnett was put in that situation that he would have the same results. I'm just saying that Kevin Garnett did NOT have those luxuries of an established team, an established leader and star to learn from, and established veteran role players that made things easier for Tim Duncan. Tim still had to go out there and handle his. I just think it was tougher where KG started from.
"I especially can't stand when people say idiotic like "well, if he had been playing for the Spurs" as though Duncan has just been stealing money all these years and letting everyone else win rings for him. Basically your entire first paragraph above."
I didn't say or imply that at all, and it's your own insecurities to defend Tim Duncan to the end that made you feel that that was what I was getting at. Duncan has absolutely not stolen money all these years, and he's been the primary reason for all of the Spurs success over the last 7-8 seasons. But, you would be fooling yourself if you did not acknowledge that Tim Duncan came into a really great situation in San Antonio, and the team around him before he even got there was already pretty good and one that could already contend. It's only "idiotic " to you because you thought I implied a whole bunch of idiotic that wasn't there.
KG definitely has to take some blame for the Wolves lack of success. Again, you are not reading what I wrote correctly. I wrote "MOST" of the blame should be on McHale and the personnel people. KG absolutely has to take some heat as well. But, I think most of the -ups have been McHale's fault. As for questioning keeping the superstar around, it's not necessarily easy to get equal value in return, and it's not just about wins, it's about ticket sales, fan reaction, the approach to rebuilding, financial issues, etc. It's not like Kevin Garnett has had a Michael Olowokandi or Pervis Ellison career. It's been more like Karl Malone or Bob Lanier career. And, having a franchise player does not come along for every team very often. It's hard to part with those kind of players.
I'm sure Minnesota will think deeply and weigh their options on whether to move KG this summer and how to do it if they decide it's time to do so.
Last edited by JamStone; 04-12-2006 at 08:42 AM.
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