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  1. #1
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The negative energy theory may have been true years ago but not now. Believe me, there's a million things that aren't being factored in in just the production stage. Ethanol and Biodiesel are tied together tightly in the production area.

    They can make gas out of turkey and have been able to do that for years now but its not feasible enough to do widespread. Geuss what? there's still improving it! Should they stop bc its not penciling out?
    Ok let's do some math.

    Let's assume:
    1. Corn is as efficient as sugar cane in producing ethanol. The reading that I have done is that it is still much less productive at converting mass into fuel, but let's roll with this for simplicity's sake.

    2. Ethanol has as much energy in it per volume as gasoline. I seem to remember it is a bit less, but again, simplicity.

    From the wikipedia article on ethanol in brazil, we can pull out the following information:

    Amount of sugar crop acreage allocated to Ethanol in 2003-2004:
    8789 square miles.
    45,000 km2, of which half is used for ethanol, and converted into square miles)

    This square area produces:
    88 Million barrels of ethanol per year
    (cubic meters converted to liters at 1000 liters per cubic meter, converted to gallons at .256 liters per gallon, converted to barrels at 42 gallons per barrel of petroleum)

    Directly converting this to gasoline would yield 88 million barrels of gasoline per year using our simplified assumptions.

    The US uses 3,321,500,000 barrels of gasoline per year per ( http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/ep/ep_frame.html )

    3.3Bn divided by 88M= 37.75 (the number of times larger that US gasoline consumption is than Brazil's consumption)

    37.75 times 8789 square miles is 331,521 square miles.

    Assume we can find 50% of that figure in unused crop land, that leaves us with 160,500 square miles of NEW crop land that would be need to completely replace gasoline with ethanol at current usage rates.

    Factor in the fact that Ethanol has less energy per unit of mass, and that square mileage will go up. Subs ute a less efficient crop of corn, and that square mileage will go up.

    According to the CIA factbook the united states has only 87,000 square miles of irrigated land now.
    Where would we get the water to irrigate the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF SQUARE MILES of crop land that fully replacing gasoline with ethanol will take, ASSUMING we can find the arable land?

    Saying "let's just replace our gasoline powered cars with ethanol" doesn't make it viable as a realistic solution.

    Rolling forward a bit:

    Yes, we will have to start driving less and buying more efficient vehicles. This will reduce the square mileage needed.

    Our population is also growing, as is the economy. This will increase demand for fuel. This will offset gains from efficiency somewhat, if not a lot.

    Yes, agricultural production will become more efficient, again reducing the square mileage issue. But not by enough of a conceivable factor to replace gasoline as it stands.

    Biodiesel will face the same problems of water and arable land. Keep in mind that the figure given was just for gasoline, and not for diesel. Replacing oil-diesel with biodeisel will require a similar ramp up in devoted area to crops.

    One good factor that the wikipedia article pointed out is that a good chunk of the waste mass from producing ethanol can be used to produce electricity beyond what the refining process uses.

    I am not saying that ethanol is stupid.
    Ethanol is certainly part of what I consider part of an energy solution that takes a longer term view. I am all for ramping up usage of this renewable source of energy.

    I simply wanted to point out the scale of the problem we are trying to address.

  2. #2
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Two things to consider:

    1) The amount of feedstock (be it corn, sugar cane, sugar beets or wood chips) required to make a (insert unit here) of usable fuel (E100 or gasoline/distillate blendstocks) is not a constant in the long term. Because it takes X bushels of corn to make a gallon of ethanol today, that doesn't mean it can't take .25X bushels of corn to make a gallon of ethanol 10 years from now. Given a free marketplace, effeciency improvements and innovative solutions will work themselves out in the longrun.

    2) Ethanol, or any other alternative fuel for that matter, doesn't need to replace all the gasoline we use to make a huge impact on prices. But in the big picture, lower prices may not be ideal because they encourage demand to grow at a faster rate, traditional gasoline production will eventually restricted by declining oil supplies, and ethanol production will reach is practical limit and we are faced with even higher prices.

  3. #3
    Fantasy Football Guru Guru of Nothing's Avatar
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    It's a 3 mile drive from my house to my work.

    I'm GoN, and I support $10 per gallon.

  4. #4
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Two things to consider:

    1) The amount of feedstock (be it corn, sugar cane, sugar beets or wood chips) required to make a (insert unit here) of usable fuel (E100 or gasoline/distillate blendstocks) is not a constant in the long term. Because it takes X bushels of corn to make a gallon of ethanol today, that doesn't mean it can't take .25X bushels of corn to make a gallon of ethanol 10 years from now. Given a free marketplace, effeciency improvements and innovative solutions will work themselves out in the longrun.

    2) Ethanol, or any other alternative fuel for that matter, doesn't need to replace all the gasoline we use to make a huge impact on prices. But in the big picture, lower prices may not be ideal because they encourage demand to grow at a faster rate, traditional gasoline production will eventually restricted by declining oil supplies, and ethanol production will reach is practical limit and we are faced with even higher prices.
    1) Yup. I alluded to this in my post but it bears repeating, and thanks for fleshing it out a bit.
    Also:
    Remember that the calculations in my first post were using several assumptions that diminished the amount of land needed to supply the same amount of miles driven. Increasing efficiency by a factor of 3 as you suggest would still require doubling, tripling or even more the amount of irrigated land in the U.S. Leading to:

    2)Yup again. Ethanol can, and I think should, play a part in meeting our energy needs. I posted this bit as a reality check for those who have read a little bit on the subject and seem to think that ethanol is a cure-all for what ails us.

  5. #5
    Banned George W Bush's Avatar
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    Sounds like "fuzzy math" to me.

  6. #6
    Believe. CubanMustGo's Avatar
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    The key to making ethanol work better in the US is a new process that breaks down all cellulose, not just crops such as sugar cane or corn. Improvements still need to be made in cost and efficiency before it is a viable soloution.

    Just google "ethanol cellulose" ... plenty of info out there pro and con. I appear with RandomGuy that's it not THE solution to the US' oil problems, but it certainly could be a factor in an overall solution. A government report states that the land resources in the U.S. are capable of producing a sustainable supply of 1.3 billion tons per year of biomass, and that 1 billion tons of biomass would be sufficient to displace 30 percent or more of the country's present petroleum consumption. Even if that is overoptimistic by a factor of three, a 10% reduction would be significant.

    Of course, so would increasing the overall mileage of the corporate US automobile fleet by 10%, driving 10% less, ...

  7. #7
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    It's a 3 mile drive from my house to my work.

    I'm GoN, and I support $10 per gallon.
    Unfortunately, it's not a 3 mile drive -- to all the places you shop -- for those who deliver the goods you buy. Ten dollar per gallon gasoline would drive consumer prices on all things transported through the roof.

  8. #8
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The key to making ethanol work better in the US is a new process that breaks down all cellulose, not just crops such as sugar cane or corn. Improvements still need to be made in cost and efficiency before it is a viable soloution.

    Just google "ethanol cellulose" ... plenty of info out there pro and con. I appear with RandomGuy that's it not THE solution to the US' oil problems, but it certainly could be a factor in an overall solution. A government report states that the land resources in the U.S. are capable of producing a sustainable supply of 1.3 billion tons per year of biomass, and that 1 billion tons of biomass would be sufficient to displace 30 percent or more of the country's present petroleum consumption. Even if that is overoptimistic by a factor of three, a 10% reduction would be significant.

    Of course, so would increasing the overall mileage of the corporate US automobile fleet by 10%, driving 10% less, ...
    The thing is that breaking down cellulose probably doesn't provide as much chemical energy as breaking down sugars. It's all about the physics...

  9. #9
    Garnett > Duncan sickdsm's Avatar
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    Ok let's do some math.

    Let's assume:
    1. Corn is as efficient as sugar cane in producing ethanol. The reading that I have done is that it is still much less productive at converting mass into fuel, but let's roll with this for simplicity's sake.

    2. Ethanol has as much energy in it per volume as gasoline. I seem to remember it is a bit less, but again, simplicity.

    From the wikipedia article on ethanol in brazil, we can pull out the following information:

    Amount of sugar crop acreage allocated to Ethanol in 2003-2004:
    8789 square miles.
    45,000 km2, of which half is used for ethanol, and converted into square miles)

    This square area produces:
    88 Million barrels of ethanol per year
    (cubic meters converted to liters at 1000 liters per cubic meter, converted to gallons at .256 liters per gallon, converted to barrels at 42 gallons per barrel of petroleum)

    Directly converting this to gasoline would yield 88 million barrels of gasoline per year using our simplified assumptions.

    The US uses 3,321,500,000 barrels of gasoline per year per ( http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/ep/ep_frame.html )

    3.3Bn divided by 88M= 37.75 (the number of times larger that US gasoline consumption is than Brazil's consumption)

    37.75 times 8789 square miles is 331,521 square miles.

    Assume we can find 50% of that figure in unused crop land, that leaves us with 160,500 square miles of NEW crop land that would be need to completely replace gasoline with ethanol at current usage rates.

    Factor in the fact that Ethanol has less energy per unit of mass, and that square mileage will go up. Subs ute a less efficient crop of corn, and that square mileage will go up.

    According to the CIA factbook the united states has only 87,000 square miles of irrigated land now.
    Where would we get the water to irrigate the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF SQUARE MILES of crop land that fully replacing gasoline with ethanol will take, ASSUMING we can find the arable land?

    Saying "let's just replace our gasoline powered cars with ethanol" doesn't make it viable as a realistic solution.

    Rolling forward a bit:

    Yes, we will have to start driving less and buying more efficient vehicles. This will reduce the square mileage needed.

    Our population is also growing, as is the economy. This will increase demand for fuel. This will offset gains from efficiency somewhat, if not a lot.

    Yes, agricultural production will become more efficient, again reducing the square mileage issue. But not by enough of a conceivable factor to replace gasoline as it stands.

    Biodiesel will face the same problems of water and arable land. Keep in mind that the figure given was just for gasoline, and not for diesel. Replacing oil-diesel with biodeisel will require a similar ramp up in devoted area to crops.

    One good factor that the wikipedia article pointed out is that a good chunk of the waste mass from producing ethanol can be used to produce electricity beyond what the refining process uses.

    I am not saying that ethanol is stupid.
    Ethanol is certainly part of what I consider part of an energy solution that takes a longer term view. I am all for ramping up usage of this renewable source of energy.

    I simply wanted to point out the scale of the problem we are trying to address.

    Corn doesn't need irrigiation in most parts of the country. 180 bu last year in a state with an annual rainfall of less than 20 inches. You previously tried to add the amount of corn required to produce ethanol on top of total corn consumption which is complete bull . Ethanol byproducts produce a highly sought after feed which REPLACES corn feed instead of adding to the demand on it. You CAN have your corn and eat/heat it too. That's why Richardton North Dakota is building an ethanol plant. No corn for miles around. Cattle country however that needs feed. Corn gets railed in, ethanol gets railed out, coal is available there.


    Being from Texas shame on you for not knowing that cattle is almost just as big of a demand for ethanol than cars. No where have i seen that part of any study factored in like it should be.

  10. #10
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
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    even though this conversation is above my plateau of scientific learning I must say I appreciate the discussion quite a bit. Way to go chaps

  11. #11
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    another thing you gotto take into consideration is the energy source thats absorb to make this work, like fuel.

    and isnt ethanol bad for car engines?

    i wonder if you can turn rice into ethanol.....then all you gotto do is use those rice paddocks in asia , and the wheat fields in australia since they have a bad outting with this kickbacks in iraq.

    is there any profit in this?
    Last edited by TDMVPDPOY; 07-13-2006 at 11:57 PM.

  12. #12
    Garnett > Duncan sickdsm's Avatar
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    Any cellose based material can be made into ethanol, some are more effiecient than others such as sugar cane.


    Enviro's have tossed around using hay, cornstalks and popular? tree's for ideas.

    Funny how an enviromentalist nutjob howls when you dare mention cutting down said trees for lumber but praises farming them to produce fuel.

  13. #13
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Corn doesn't need irrigiation in most parts of the country. 180 bu last year in a state with an annual rainfall of less than 20 inches. You previously tried to add the amount of corn required to produce ethanol on top of total corn consumption which is complete bull . Ethanol byproducts produce a highly sought after feed which REPLACES corn feed instead of adding to the demand on it. You CAN have your corn and eat/heat it too. That's why Richardton North Dakota is building an ethanol plant. No corn for miles around. Cattle country however that needs feed. Corn gets railed in, ethanol gets railed out, coal is available there.


    Being from Texas shame on you for not knowing that cattle is almost just as big of a demand for ethanol than cars. No where have i seen that part of any study factored in like it should be.
    Coal is available there. What, pray tell ,would one use coal for? Making ethanol? Why bother indirectly using coal in that manner? Would it not be more energetically/economically efficient to directly use it for energy?

    "Corn doesn't need to be irrigated in most parts of the country" I call bull on that one. Prove that thesis to even a minimal degree.

    BUT

    For argument's sake, let's assume this is the case. We would still need one or two hundred thousand square miles of this magically un-irrigated corn to supply even half of our energy needs for transportation. Assuming no droughts interrupt the process. Where do we get this land? At what cost? When do the costs of converting two hundred thousand square miles of the continental US cover or beat the cost of the next best alternatives (whatever form they end up taking)?

    Ethanol replacing more than a fraction of our energy needs for transportation is simply not economically viable.

    "cattle is almost just as big of a demand for ethanol than cars"

    Um, cows drink ethanol?

    Seriously though, despite your best efforts at not communicating clearly, I still managed to figure this one out.

    Ok, cows eat corn. How much corn do cows eat in the US in one year?

    How much corn is produced in the US in one year?

    How much ethanol does one square mile of corn produce in one year?
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 07-14-2006 at 08:50 PM.

  14. #14
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    The thing is that breaking down cellulose probably doesn't provide as much chemical energy as breaking down sugars. It's all about the physics...

    Cellulose is a polymeric molecule composed of sugars.... essentially a molecule with a sugar matrix/backbone... so technically, if we could more efficiently breakdown celluloses to sugar (of all types; not just the weak versions found in sugar cane and bannana trees) -- then we would have a great source of energy... but this is harder than it seems without having to pre-invest a great deal of energy upfront (in fact we humans can't even digest cellulose... that's how hard it is to break apart...)

    A simple illustration of the amount of stored energy in cellulose would be to consider the amount of energy a single piece of firewood releases when burned...

  15. #15
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Cellulose is a polymeric molecule composed of sugars.... essentially a molecule with a sugar matrix/backbone... so technically, if we could more efficiently breakdown celluloses to sugar (of all types; not just the weak versions found in sugar cane and bannana trees) -- then we would have a great source of energy... but this is harder than it seems without having to pre-invest a great deal of energy upfront (in fact we humans can't even digest cellulose... that's how hard it is to break apart...)

    A simple illustration of the amount of stored energy in cellulose would be to consider the amount of energy a single piece of firewood releases when burned...
    Thank you. This is a good bit there.

    All chemical reactions require something called "energy of activation". That is the "pre-invest" bit.

    Cellulose in wood does release a good bit of heat, but that rapid exothermic reaction, let's call it, um, "fire" for lack of a better word, requires some energy to be applied to it first, such as a match.
    Fire is actually nothing more than a chemical reaction. The NET amount of energy you get out of a reaction is the result of how much energy it takes to start MINUS how much energy is released. This is, by the way, exactly why ethanol is less efficient in a combustion engine than gasoline.

    While I do not have figures or studies that readily prove that cellulose mass provides less ethanol than sugar mass, I would be willing to bet quite a bit of money that this is the way it pans out.

  16. #16
    Garnett > Duncan sickdsm's Avatar
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    Coal is available there. What, pray tell ,would one use coal for? Making ethanol? Why bother indirectly using coal in that manner? Would it not be more energetically/economically efficient to directly use it for energy?

    "Corn doesn't need to be irrigated in most parts of the country" I call bull on that one. Prove that thesis to even a minimal degree.

    BUT

    For argument's sake, let's assume this is the case. We would still need one or two hundred thousand square miles of this magically un-irrigated corn to supply even half of our energy needs for transportation. Assuming no droughts interrupt the process. Where do we get this land? At what cost? When do the costs of converting two hundred thousand square miles of the continental US cover or beat the cost of the next best alternatives (whatever form they end up taking)?

    Ethanol replacing more than a fraction of our energy needs for transportation is simply not economically viable.

    "cattle is almost just as big of a demand for ethanol than cars"

    Um, cows drink ethanol?

    Seriously though, despite your best efforts at not communicating clearly, I still managed to figure this one out.

    Ok, cows eat corn. How much corn do cows eat in the US in one year?

    How much corn is produced in the US in one year?

    How much ethanol does one square mile of corn produce in one year?

    Why build a plant in Richardton?

    Red Trail Energy is bringing ethanol production to the least expensive energy source: lignite coal. By using lignite to fire our plant, we will save $8 million a year compared to plants fueled with natural gas. Red Trail has tied in its energy costs with 10-year, fixed-base-rate contracts to purchase 133,000 tons of North Dakota lignite a year at less than one-fourth the current cost of natural gas. As a result, Red Trail’s energy costs will be 70 percent lower than similar plants that use natural gas.

    http://www.redtrailenergyllc.com/index.php/faq/#engine

    But hey, i'm sure they didn't plan that one out being there's huge electrical plants nearby in the lignite coal fields also.

    As for irrigitaion, most of the corn in the US is raised in the corn belt. Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota, Indiana, Nebraska, Ohio, Missouri and South Dakota

    Nebraska's western half is irriigated heavily. Most other places irrigitaion is a supplemental bonus. Meaning you might get 220 bu instead of 180-200 in areas. Not required at all. This is exactly what i'm talking about. What experience do you have with corn?


    If you don't get the rain, soils generally aren't very suitable anyway. Timely rains are much more important than quanity. Right now the corn here is tasseling and we're dry. We've had LOTS of moisture this year, but tasseling time is very important. Meanwhile the soybeans are starting to burn up a little bit. NOT A BIG DEAL! Soybeans are made in August, Corn in July. You can pretend you need to pump billions of gallons of water on corn if you need to but like a tomato plant, the time you do it is more imprtant.


    I welcome you if you ever make the trip up north to stay at my place so you can learn a thing or two about corn instead of googling something on the interet.



    You still cannot grasp my cattle/ethanol comment. Cattle are fed the byproduct, DDG (dried distillers grain) Much more nutritious than corn but needs to be dried for transport or the wet gluten, same thing but wet. This needs to be fed in a timely manner before getting rotten. Hence the feedlots thriving near ethanol plants. Not to mention, the Wet gluten is much, MUCH more nutritious than DDG which is also much more nutrious than corn.


    Get it now? Cows eat less corn, more "filler feeds" mixed with the wet byproduct.

    Corn demand doesn't rise according to the sum, its a percantage of the ethanol demand.

  17. #17
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    "cows eat corn. How much corn do cows eat in the US in one year?"

    70+% of US corn serves as animal feed (cows, chickens, turkeys, hogs, etc), and quite a bit of corn and wheat is exported. US consumers eat a small %age of corn/wheat production directly. Corn is also consumed as sugar from corn frutose/sweetner in soft drinks, candy, meats, all kinds of foods with gratuitous sweetner, etc. eg, I think ketchup and BBQ sauce are about 30% - 40% sugar.

  18. #18
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    As for irrigitaion, most of the corn in the US is raised in the corn belt. Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota, Indiana, Nebraska, Ohio, Missouri and South Dakota

    Nebraska's western half is irriigated heavily. Most other places irrigitaion is a supplemental bonus. Meaning you might get 220 bu instead of 180-200 in areas. Not required at all. This is exactly what i'm talking about. What experience do you have with corn?


    If you don't get the rain, soils generally aren't very suitable anyway. Timely rains are much more important than quanity. Right now the corn here is tasseling and we're dry. We've had LOTS of moisture this year, but tasseling time is very important. Meanwhile the soybeans are starting to burn up a little bit. NOT A BIG DEAL! Soybeans are made in August, Corn in July. You can pretend you need to pump billions of gallons of water on corn if you need to but like a tomato plant, the time you do it is more imprtant.

    I welcome you if you ever make the trip up north to stay at my place so you can learn a thing or two about corn instead of googling something on the interet.

    You still cannot grasp my cattle/ethanol comment. Cattle are fed the byproduct, DDG (dried distillers grain) Much more nutritious than corn but needs to be dried for transport or the wet gluten, same thing but wet. This needs to be fed in a timely manner before getting rotten. Hence the feedlots thriving near ethanol plants. Not to mention, the Wet gluten is much, MUCH more nutritious than DDG which is also much more nutrious than corn.

    Get it now? Cows eat less corn, more "filler feeds" mixed with the wet byproduct.

    Corn demand doesn't rise according to the sum, its a percantage of the ethanol demand.
    I don't need to know about what types of soil corn grows best in, and will readily acced that you obviously know more about corn than I do.

    The part of the equation you are missing is the economic one. I have pointed out how much land area, irrigated or not, would be required to supplant gasoline usage, even to say, 50%. Put this figure at 150,000 square miles, OF NEW FARMLAND.

    Since free market economics dictates that the most economical (profitable) land is now being used for corn, that would mean that this new land would have to be more marginal in terms of production, yes?

    So if it is more marginal, would it not be reasonable to assume that this land would be in areas that require some degree of irrigation?

    75% of all water usage in the US is for agriculture, generally for irrigation.

    Assume that 1/2 of that new 150,000 square miles was in land that would require irrigation, or 75,000 square miles.

    By my back of the envelope calculations, that would mean a country that is finding it harder to supply cities with water would suddenly have to increase water usage by 66%, just to replace 50% of our gasoline usage with ethanol.

  19. #19
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Again, I am not saying that we shouldn't ramp up ethanol production and use things like corn to do it.

    I am saying that it is not economically or physically feasible to replace more than a small percentage of current gasoline usage with ethanol.

    Even when energy costs accelerate, as I think they will, ethanol will still not be THE solution, as each new unit of ethanol costs more than the last by an increasing amount.

  20. #20
    Ruffy RuffnReadyOzStyle's Avatar
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    I am saying that it is not economically or physically feasible to replace more than a small percentage of current gasoline usage with ethanol.
    This is absolutely the case. Ethanol is a small part of the solution, but to replace current global fuel usage with ethanol would take the arable (cultivated) land of 3 Earths ie. not going to happen.

    Get used to the fact that petrol price will double in the next 3-5 years, and then even more frequently as demand far outstrips supply and the oil becomes more difficult and expensive to extract.

    I know you don't want to hear it, no-one does, but the change that really needs to occur is a GLOBAL REDUCTION IN CONSUMPTION. Fossil fuels are a piggy bank of energy that we are quickly exhausting, and unless we actually want to confront global economic, environmental and social collapse, we have to act now, every one of us (led by our governments), to change our way of doing things. We need to pay more, consume less, and remember that, despite what economists will tell you, NATURAL RESOURCES ARE NOT INFINITE and TECHNOLOGY WILL NOT SAVE US - it will help, but there are 6 billion of us now and we have to change the way we live.

    Of course this won't happen, and the crisis will hit us before we are ready, but that is the way humans do things. The short-term focus of our political systems don't allow our politicians to plan in the long-term, so essentially we're fvcked. Oh well.

    BTW, I am studying a Masters in Energy Sustainability to be followed by a PhD. I couldn't live with myself if, knowing what I know, I didn't try to be a part of the solution.

    Want to know more about sustainability issues, look up these guys/keywords and follow the links: Eugene Odum, Joseph Tainter, Clive Ponting, the Millenium report, human ecology. That's just some introductory stuff you read when you first start down the sustainability path...

    Oh, and this:

    Even when energy costs accelerate, as I think they will, ethanol will still not be THE solution, as each new unit of ethanol costs more than the last by an increasing amount.
    is called the Law of Diminishing Returns and applies to just about everything we do over the long-term due to the energy costs associated with upkeep of complexity. Noticed that life is getting increasingly more complex and it's harder to just keep your life in order than it ever has been. "Complexity and diminishing returns to investment" (of time in this case). Put that phrase into Google and see what comes out.

    Or read this for an intro:

    http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-...shing-returns/
    Last edited by RuffnReadyOzStyle; 08-10-2006 at 09:16 PM.

  21. #21
    Fantasy Football Guru Guru of Nothing's Avatar
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    I know you don't want to hear it, no-one does, but the change that really needs to occur is a GLOBAL REDUCTION IN CONSUMPTION.
    Bingo Matt!

    A few times I've gotten up on my high-horse and stated that Urban Spawl is a huge problem (literally). Fortunately, I think this is something that can self-correct via market influence. ... Actually, it will have to.

    Personally, I endorse sharp market corrections now to wake people up, and bring out our best creativity.

    ... And I still live within 3 miles of 95% of the places I go.

  22. #22
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    corn/wheat extracted = ethanol, spoilage = animal food = animal , extracted back into process = ethanol......

  23. #23
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Two things to consider:

    1) The amount of feedstock (be it corn, sugar cane, sugar beets or wood chips) required to make a (insert unit here) of usable fuel (E100 or gasoline/distillate blendstocks) is not a constant in the long term. Because it takes X bushels of corn to make a gallon of ethanol today, that doesn't mean it can't take .25X bushels of corn to make a gallon of ethanol 10 years from now. Given a free marketplace, effeciency improvements and innovative solutions will work themselves out in the longrun.

    2) Ethanol, or any other alternative fuel for that matter, doesn't need to replace all the gasoline we use to make a huge impact on prices. But in the big picture, lower prices may not be ideal because they encourage demand to grow at a faster rate, traditional gasoline production will eventually restricted by declining oil supplies, and ethanol production will reach is practical limit and we are faced with even higher prices.
    Yup. I would add that efficiency gains will be offset to some degree by the growth in demand caused by a growing economy.

  24. #24
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    This is absolutely the case. Ethanol is a small part of the solution, but to replace current global fuel usage with ethanol would take the arable (cultivated) land of 3 Earths ie. not going to happen.

    Get used to the fact that petrol price will double in the next 3-5 years, and then even more frequently as demand far outstrips supply and the oil becomes more difficult and expensive to extract.

    I know you don't want to hear it, no-one does, but the change that really needs to occur is a GLOBAL REDUCTION IN CONSUMPTION. Fossil fuels are a piggy bank of energy that we are quickly exhausting, and unless we actually want to confront global economic, environmental and social collapse, we have to act now, every one of us (led by our governments), to change our way of doing things. We need to pay more, consume less, and remember that, despite what economists will tell you, NATURAL RESOURCES ARE NOT INFINITE and TECHNOLOGY WILL NOT SAVE US - it will help, but there are 6 billion of us now and we have to change the way we live.

    Of course this won't happen, and the crisis will hit us before we are ready, but that is the way humans do things. The short-term focus of our political systems don't allow our politicians to plan in the long-term, so essentially we're fvcked. Oh well.

    BTW, I am studying a Masters in Energy Sustainability to be followed by a PhD. I couldn't live with myself if, knowing what I know, I didn't try to be a part of the solution.
    For the regulars, who have read this from me before, my apologies for saying this again.

    For Ruff:

    The sun puts out more energy in 2 seconds than humanity has used to this point.

    You want sustainable energy? Tap into THAT on a large scale.

    The rest of our solar system has three aspects to it that need to be considered.

    1) Energy from the sun.
    2) Mass. From the asteroid belt to the moon to mars to Jupiter's moons, there is a lot of raw materials sitting around.
    3) Space. Not space as in vacuum, but space as in room to do stuff.

    Scaled up solar power stations that are hundreds of miles across can produce enough electricity to completely replace every single power plant on the face of our planet, with virtually no ecological footprint.

    Here are a couple of intesting places to start reading on what is possible, even with today's off-the-shelf technology:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_satellite
    http://www.permanent.com
    http://www.space.com/businesstechnol..._011017-1.html
    http://www.fact-sheets.com/science-n...ar_satellites/

    The US government has some awareness of this potential as well:
    http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/tmsb/dyn...v_sd_tech.html

    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/pd...11_proof_1.pdf

    This isn't science fiction. This is achievable energy independence, and something I expect to see in my lifetime.

  25. #25
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Cheap corn may not be the answer when American stockpiles run dry...

    WASHINGTON - US ethanol manufacturers, foodmakers and livestock feeders are consuming so much corn (maize) that stockpiles could be depleted by 2008, unless plantings expand sharply, analysts said on Friday.

    In its first forecast of the fall harvest, the USDepartment of Agriculture estimated on Friday the corn crop at 10.976 billion bushels (278.8 million tonnes), the third-largest crop ever. Corn usage now exceeds production by a small margin.

    But in the 2006/07 marketing year, which opens Sept. 1, importers and US industry will consume 839 million bushels or 7 percent more corn than is being grown, according to USDA.

    "There's definitely need for more corn," said analyst Mark McMinimy of Stanford Washington Research, especially with the ethanol industry growing "bigger and hungrier" each year
    .

    Planetark

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