Robinson vs. Shaq.... let the debating begin!

[Phenomanul]

I had put this on another thread but decided it merited its own thread... because by the time it reached this topic, the original topic had gone by the wayside. (funny how that happens in forums :p ).

I don't see how the city he played in would have upped his stock that much. Dream is considered at least a top 4 center of all time and most people would put him top 3 actually, just ahead of Shaq. He played for Houston, hardly a dominant market like NY or LA.

Not dominant... but if you factor in the fact that Houston is the 4th largest city in the U.S. population wise... 3rd largest area wise. I would hardly say that Houston didn't have a large market... People in L.A. and N.Y. can become so self-absorbed in the grandeur of their cities, that they often forget civilization exists outside of them... Don't forget that the "sports market" itself is the product of a heavily empasized "TV" culture that prevails in cities like LaLa land and the Big Apple. So had David played there... don't doubt for a second, he would have been a force.... and to make my point clearer... been marketed as one.

Actually no, he didn't. Even pre-97 DRob was consistently outplayed by Shaq. Look up the stats.

Actually, YES he did... Whott showed the box scores for every single one of their head to head matchup's prior to his injury... David most definitely had the edge... You look up the stats.

Timvp or Kori, is that particular thread on the classics?

Why mention DRob's back injury as an excuse but not mention Shaq's age? Shaq was 25 by the time DRob had the major back injury.

That argument should be used in support of DRob, not against him. Shaq had the weight advantage and the youth advantage... you could also argue that he had a better superstar teammate in Penny and a better team.... and even then, David was able to overcome those odds to beat Shaq. Riddle me this... who scored 71 pts to deprive Shaq of a scoring le?

What, with class? What are you talking about? There's no question Shaq was a more dominant offensive force than Robinson. He was also able to dominate offensively for many more years, and his career still isn't over. He has reached 5 Finals on two different teams and won 3 championships in one fewer season than DRob. Sorry, Shaq > DRob. Take a poll on any non-Spurs or non-Lakers web site and you'll get the same answer. DRob's defensive domination is no where near Shaq's offensive domination. It has nothing to do with the cities they played in, Shaq was flat out better.

Uh... o Kevin... you there... This whole thing started with you not giving David his props... David is most certainly a top-5 center and you seem to see that as some fantastic reach of the imagination...

The fact of the matter is when both players were in their prime, David owned Shaq.... and please don't respond until you get your facts straight... Read the boxscores.

Sure... I'm a Spurs fan... And I'm not going to deny that I'm biased in promoting my own. But that's only because fans like you always fail to give other players not from your own team their due props. I never, ever said Shaq wasn't a great player... in fact I'll be rooting for him to destroy LA this season.

But you can't deny that championships are a product of teamball... and LA's championships resulted from teaming up Shaq, Kobe, and Phil... (not to mention having a few big shots from Horry here and there as a luxury item) just as San Antonio's were the sum of Duncan and Robinson. To compare only the number of championships as a measure of greatness would be asinine.

Besides you seem to be missing the point I tried to make with the quote you only grazed. David as a player played the game of basketball with class... David as a person conducted himself with class. His life is filled with selfless accomplishments... not just those intended for self glory...

Notice the trend... David could be Mr. Nice Guy and at the same time could also be a Defensive monster and when needed (prior to his injury) an offensive jauggernaut.

I actually like Shaq... he is relaxed, comical and always worth the memorable quote... but David is the more complete person. From day one of Duncan's arrival, David had absolutely no issues in recognizing that the focal point of Spurs ball would be Duncan. He made the transition seamlessly, cooperatively and without any issues, or bad blood.... knowing well he had to pass torch for the team to succeed.

Shaq and Kobe.... Gasp!!!! You only wish that they had an ounce of David's class... because the Lakers would still be contenders. Throw Phil Jackson into that mix as well. (he's one of the few coaches I know who publically threw jeers at David while trying to get into his head--- again classless.... Pop has never stooped to that level).

Anyhow, David never needed any showboating antics to win over fans or respect... he did it with his lifestyle and with his unwavering commitment to the Spurs organization. Shaq has shown twice he could care less about leaving an organization for "greener pastures" without regard for the state in which he leaves them....and his on-court baffoonery, though sometimes funny... will in the long run tarnish his legacy (if only slightly). Fights with other players; B.Miller, C.Barkley, etc... fights with his teammates... calling out his teammates... disrespecting other franchises; the Kings-"Queens" debacle... news that he paid off women to keep quiet- though only a rumor, one would have to be naive to think that this doesn't go on.... (this list could go on except I like Shaq enough to let him get away with some of it). Find something on DRob... go on... but I warn you... you won't find anything. Well.... except maybe that DRob briefly tested the waters of Free-Agency... but that is hardly a knock on his character.

As far as Shaq being a more dominant offensive force... everybody and their momma knows Shaq gets away with more pushing and shoving than Mr. Plow. Not to diminish his skills though, when Shaq was lean and mean he was a great and exciting player around the rim... but during the championship run... Shaq got away with the size advantage... and don't kid yourself in thinking that this was not the case.

As for Shaq being around longer... don't forget that David gave up two full years of his career to fufill his committment with the NAVY... and in his first NBA game he singlehandedly beat Magic's showtime Lakers... by scoring 23 points, nabbing 17 rebounds all while dishing out 5 assists, blocking 4 shots, and stealing the ball three times. That's pretty dominant to me... In fact in his last game as a pro, David still managed to nab 17 rebounds... again... had David forced the issue and had he not been hampered by his back injury, I don't doubt for a second that he would have been averaging 20+ points even in his final years. But see... that's the difference between Shaq and David... David was not really concerned with the vainess of self-glory (except maybe the time he wanted to beat Shaq to that scoring le ). David was concerned with team success.... and as to the early retirement... spending some time with his family.

To make things clearer this is my list of best all-around all-time NBA centers based on accomplishments. I'm also factoring the importance of that player to his team. For example Kareem had Magic and Worthy as star teammates meaning he could have had an off-game and the other stars could have picked up the slack. Hakeem had no one other than role players until finally late in his career he had some star help by being reunited with Drexler. DRob essentially had no other star until Duncan came along... And Shaq always had the benefit of playing with a dominant off-guard as his sidekick (Penny and Kobe).

1) Wilt
2) Kareem
3) Russell
4) Hakeem
5) Shaq
6) Robinson
7) Mikan
8) Ewing

But based on talent alone.

1) Wilt
2) Hakeem
3) Kareem
4) Robinson
5) Russell
6) Shaq

[Phenomanul]

BTW Kevin, don't just pick a little quote from above to make an argument about nothing....

I'm not dissing your arguments or anything... as they are usually well thought out.. Failure to show Robinson his props, however, has been a sore spot of mine for a while... because in this "sportscenter" culture, people fail to realize just how great a player he really was. It's as if his they're holding his great and generous personality against him... wanting instead to promote "ballas" like A.I.

I partially Blame S.A.Smith and his lame, off-base, theatrics... why he hates San Antonio so much I don't know. Maybe he got dumped by a girl from San Antonio or something.... but that guy just loves making us look bad on the national stage...

This year however, I doubt we'll be as boring as he claims.

[Duff McCartney]

I'd venture the only reason Shaq became so dominant is because of his size...whereas guys like Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem et al...are dominant because of their ability to play the game. Hakeem had his unstoppable fade away sorta thing...you think Shaq would ever be able to shoot from that distance? No way.

[whottt]

Just for Kaster....

And MI21 is right...I just need to CnP my Drob arguments for future reference.

                San Antonio (94) @ Orlando (90) 02/28/93


San Antonio (94)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Reid,J.R.         F  25   5- 9    2- 4    0- 0    1- 8   0  1  1  1  4  12
Ellis,Dale        F  40   7-15    2- 2    1- 5    1- 9   0  1  0  3  2  17
Robinson,David    C  44   9-20    5- 7    0- 0    3-16   7  4  3  2  3  23
Daniels,Lloyd     G  36   3-14    0- 0    0- 1    6-11   1  3  1  2  5   6
Johnson,Avery     G  35   0- 8    6- 8    0- 0    0- 2  13  2  0  0  2   6
Carr,Antoine         25  11-15    1- 2    0- 0    4- 7   0  0  1  1  3  23
Anderson,Willie      15   0- 2    0- 0    0- 0    0- 1   1  1  0  0  1   0
Del Negro,Vinny      18   3- 4    1- 2    0- 0    0- 1   1  0  0  3  3   7
Smith,Larry           2   0- 0    0- 0    0- 0    0- 0   0  0  0  0  0   0
TOTALS              240  38-87   17-25    1- 6   15-55  23 12  6 12 23  94

     FG %: .437  FT %: .680  Three %: .167  Team Rebs: 7  Team TOs: 2


Orlando (90)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Tolbert,Tom       F  24   2- 6    2- 4    1- 1    2- 4   1  0  0  0  1   7
Bowie,Anthony     F  28   1- 6    1- 2    0- 0    1- 4   2  1  0  3  1   3
O'Neal,Shaquille  C  34   8-18    3- 5    0- 0    2-13   2  0  3  3  4  19
Anderson,Nick     G  38  10-26    4- 6    6-10    3- 7   0  0  0  3  2  30
Skiles,Scott      G  32   4-11    0- 0    2- 5    1- 4   7  0  0  2  5  10
Scott,Dennis         13   2- 7    0- 0    0- 2    0- 1   0  0  0  1  1   4
Kite,Greg             9   0- 1    0- 0    0- 0    0- 4   0  0  1  0  1   0
Royal,Donald         21   0- 1    5- 6    0- 0    3- 4   4  2  1  2  0   5
Williams,Brian       12   1- 4    0- 0    0- 1    2- 6   0  2  2  0  2   2
Kerr,Steve           17   1- 2    4- 4    0- 0    1- 2   3  0  0  1  2   6
Turner,Jeff          12   1- 4    2- 2    0- 0    1- 2   0  0  0  0  2   4
TOTALS              240  30-86   21-29    9-19   16-51  19  5  7 15 21  90

     FG %: .349  FT %: .724  Three %: .474  Team Rebs: 8  Team TOs: 0

               San Antonio               27 26 20 21 --  94
               Orlando                   19 21 23 27 --  90

 Orlando (93) @ San Antonio (96) 03/19/93


Orlando (93)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Bowie,Anthony     F  31   6-12    0- 0    0- 2    0- 4   4  0  0  1  1  12
Tolbert,Tom       F  36   8- 9    1- 1    1- 1    0- 5   1  0  1  0  4  18
O'Neal,Shaquille  C  32   7-11    1- 5    0- 0    3-13   1  1  2  8  5  15
Anderson,Nick     G  40   9-20    4- 6    2- 6    0- 7   3  3  0  1  3  24
Green,Litterial   G  42   5-11    2- 2    0- 0    1- 2   8  0  1  4  3  12
Royal,Donald         30   4- 9    2- 2    0- 0    4- 5   4  2  1  2  2  10
Kite,Greg            18   1- 3    0- 2    0- 0    2- 6   1  0  0  0  6   2
Kerr,Steve            6   0- 1    0- 0    0- 0    0- 0   1  0  0  0  0   0
Turner,Jeff           5   0- 1    0- 0    0- 0    0- 2   0  0  0  0  1   0
TOTALS              240  40-77   10-18    3- 9   10-44  23  6  5 16 25  93

     FG %: .519  FT %: .556  Three %: .333  Team Rebs: 7  Team TOs: 0


San Antonio (96)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Elliott,Sean      F  35   4-10    7- 9    0- 1    2- 4   2  0  0  1  0  15
Reid,J.R.         F  18   4- 8    2- 2    0- 0    1- 5   1  1  0  2  4  10
Robinson,David    C  43  11-20    8-12    0- 0    1- 7   4  3  1  2  3  30
Ellis,Dale        G  24   3-12    0- 0    0- 5    0- 3   1  0  1  1  0   6
Johnson,Avery     G  40   5-12    0- 0    0- 0    2- 2   9  2  0  3  4  10
Carr,Antoine         31   6-11    2- 3    0- 0    1- 8   4  0  1  2  4  14
Daniels,Lloyd        18   3- 6    0- 0    1- 1    4- 7   1  0  1  0  0   7
Anderson,Willie      17   1- 1    2- 2    0- 0    0- 1   4  1  1  1  1   4
Del Negro,Vinny       7   0- 0    0- 0    0- 0    0- 0   0  0  0  0  0   0
Smith,Larry           5   0- 1    0- 0    0- 0    1- 1   0  0  0  0  0   0
Mack,Sam              2   0- 1    0- 0    0- 0    0- 0   0  0  0  2  1   0
TOTALS              240  37-82   21-28    1- 7   12-38  26  7  5 14 17  96

     FG %: .451  FT %: .750  Three %: .143  Team Rebs: 8  Team TOs: 0

               Orlando                   26 17 24 26 --  93
               San Antonio               23 19 29 25 --  96

San Antonio (94) @ Orlando (84) 12/03/93


San Antonio (94)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Rodman,Dennis     F  39   2- 6    0- 0    0- 0    8-23   4  1  1  0  4   4
Anderson,Willie   F  41   7-19    2- 3    0- 1    1- 2   9  0  0  2  2  16
Robinson,David    C  45   6-17   11-14    0- 0    3-11  10  4  2  3  5  23
Ellis,Dale        G  35   8-14    4- 6    2- 3    1- 4   0  2  0  2  3  22
Knight,Negele     G  37   6-11    2- 3    0- 0    2- 3   1  1  1  2  5  14
Whitney,Chris         1   0- 0    0- 0    0- 0    0- 1   0  0  0  0  0   0
Reid,J.R.            12   2- 7    4- 4    0- 0    1- 2   1  1  0  2  3   8
Del Negro,Vinny      16   2- 5    0- 0    0- 1    0- 1   0  0  0  0  1   4
Floyd,Sleepy         14   1- 1    1- 2    0- 0    1- 2   0  0  0  0  0   3
TOTALS              240  34-80   24-32    2- 5   17-49  25  9  4 11 23  94

    FG %: .425  FT %: .750  Three %: .400  Team Rebs: 11  Team TOs: 0


Orlando (84)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Anderson,Nick     F  35   5-12    0- 0    1- 2    1- 8   2  1  0  1  2  11
Turner,Jeff       F  22   3- 5    1- 2    0- 0    0- 1   0  1  0  0  2   7
O'Neal,Shaquille  C  43   9-17    3- 6    0- 0    5-19   1  1  3  4  3  21
Hardaway,Anfernee G  34   4- 9    1- 1    1- 3    1- 3   4  2  0  1  2  10
Skiles,Scott      G  35   4-10    5- 6    0- 3    0- 0   7  0  0  6  4  13
Kite,Greg             5   0- 0    0- 2    0- 0    0- 0   0  0  0  0  1   0
Scott,Dennis         25   4-12    1- 2    1- 7    0- 2   3  0  0  1  4  10
Royal,Donald         23   1- 3    4- 8    0- 0    3- 3   2  1  1  0  4   6
Bowie,Anthony        18   3- 5    0- 0    0- 0    1- 1   0  0  0  0  1   6
TOTALS              240  33-73   15-27    3-15   11-37  19  6  4 13 23  84

     FG %: .452  FT %: .556  Three %: .200  Team Rebs: 9  Team TOs: 0

               San Antonio               30 22 20 22 --  94
               Orlando                   23 18 21 22 --  84

 Orlando (103) @ San Antonio (111) 03/06/94


Orlando (103)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Avent,Anthony     F  21   2- 4    0- 0    0- 0    2- 4   0  0  1  0  2   4
Scott,Dennis      F  41   8-14    1- 2    4- 6    1- 3   6  1  2  1  3  21
O'Neal,Shaquille  C  39  11-20   10-15    0- 0    3-11   2  1  0  3  5  32
Hardaway,Anfernee G  37   4-19    3- 4    1- 3    3- 6   2  2  0  4  2  12
Anderson,Nick     G  35   7-12    0- 0    1- 4    0- 3   5  0  0  0  1  15
Rollins,Tree         12   1- 1    1- 2    0- 0    1- 3   2  0  0  1  1   3
Skiles,Scott         11   2- 3    0- 0    2- 2    0- 0   2  0  0  1  1   6
Krystkowiak,Larry    22   2- 4    0- 0    0- 0    3- 4   1  1  0  1  4   4
Bowie,Anthony        13   3- 4    0- 0    0- 0    0- 1   0  0  0  0  0   6
Royal,Donald          9   0- 0    0- 0    0- 0    0- 0   0  0  0  0  2   0
TOTALS              240  40-81   15-23    8-15   13-35  20  5  3 11 21 103

     FG %: .494  FT %: .652  Three %: .533  Team Rebs: 9  Team TOs: 0


San Antonio (111)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Ellis,Dale        F  41   9-13    1- 2    3- 5    3- 6   4  1  0  0  1  22
Reid,J.R.         F  27   2- 9    2- 4    0- 0    0- 3   2  0  1  0  1   6
Robinson,David    C  40  14-26    8- 8    0- 0    5-13   7  3  6  4  4  36
Del Negro,Vinny   G  25   6-11    0- 0    0- 1    2- 3   3  0  0  1  1  12
Anderson,Willie   G  42   7-15    0- 0    0- 0    2- 6   8  1  0  1  3  14
Rodman,Dennis        27   3- 5    0- 0    0- 0    5-10   0  0  0  2  2   6
Carr,Antoine         25   3- 6    2- 2    0- 0    0- 1   0  0  0  1  4   8
Floyd,Sleepy         13   1- 3    5- 7    0- 0    0- 3   4  1  0  0  2   7
TOTALS              240  45-88   18-23    3- 6   17-45  28  6  7  9 18 111

     FG %: .511  FT %: .783  Three %: .500  Team Rebs: 8  Team TOs: 0

               Orlando                   36 25 25 17 -- 103
               San Antonio               30 24 20 37 -- 111

 Orlando (111) @ San Antonio (112) 03/03/95


Orlando (111)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Scott,Dennis      F  42   3-10    3- 4    2- 6    1- 3   3  3  0  2  4  11
Grant,Horace      F  42   2- 5    2- 4    0- 0    1- 9   3  1  2  3  5   6
O'Neal,Shaquille  C  40  15-27    6-12    0- 0    2-12   0  0  2  4  4  36
Hardaway,Anfernee G  43   8-16   10-12    2- 6    4- 6   7  2  0  3  2  28
Anderson,Nick     G  31   8-15    2- 2    2- 6    2- 7   3  0  0  0  5  20
Shaw,Brian           26   1- 4    4- 4    0- 2    0- 2   6  4  0  2  3   6
Avent,Anthony        13   2- 3    0- 0    0- 0    2- 2   0  0  1  2  4   4
Bowie,Anthony         3   0- 0    0- 0    0- 0    0- 0   0  0  0  0  1   0
TOTALS              240  39-80   27-38    6-20   12-41  22 10  5 16 28 111

     FG %: .488  FT %: .711  Three %: .300  Team Rebs: 9  Team TOs: 0


San Antonio (112)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Rodman,Dennis     F  38   4- 8    1- 3    0- 0    8-20   3  2  0  1  3   9
Elliott,Sean      F  37   6-13    5- 5    1- 2    0- 1   1  0  0  3  4  18
Robinson,David    C  35   7-24   10-12    0- 0    8-14   0  4  5  2  2  24
Del Negro,Vinny   G  26   3- 8    3- 3    1- 1    0- 3   4  0  0  0  3  10
Johnson,Avery     G  35   5-12    2- 3    0- 0    1- 1   9  3  0  2  0  12
Person,Chuck         32   5-12    4- 5    2- 4    0- 4   1  0  0  3  2  16
 mings,Terry       12   4- 7    3- 5    0- 0    1- 2   0  1  0  2  4  11
Rivers,Doc           13   2- 3    2- 2    1- 2    0- 1   2  1  0  1  5   7
Reid,J.R.            11   2- 2    1- 2    0- 0    1- 3   1  0  0  1  1   5
Anderson,Willie       1   0- 0    0- 0    0- 0    0- 0   0  0  0  0  0   0
TOTALS              240  38-89   31-40    5- 9   19-49  21 11  5 15 24 112

    FG %: .427  FT %: .775  Three %: .556  Team Rebs: 13  Team TOs: 0

               Orlando                   29 25 29 28 -- 111
               San Antonio               30 34 33 15 -- 112

            San Antonio (109) @ Orlando (122) 02/04/96


San Antonio (109)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Elliott,Sean      F  37   2-12    2- 2    0- 4    0- 2   5  0  0  4  1   6
Perdue,Will       F  21   3- 3    0- 0    0- 0    2- 4   0  0  0  2  1   6
Robinson,David    C  49  14-22    8-12    0- 0    1-11   2  3  1  3  4  36
Del Negro,Vinny   G  47   9-15    4- 4    3- 5    1- 7   3  1  0  0  1  25
Johnson,Avery     G  48   7-15    2- 2    0- 3    1- 5  14  2  0  3  4  16
Person,Chuck         30   1- 5    0- 0    1- 4    0- 7   2  2  0  1  3   3
Reid,J.R.            22   7-11    1- 3    0- 0    1- 2   0  1  0  1  5  15
Alexander,Cory        5   1- 2    0- 0    0- 0    0- 0   1  0  0  1  2   2
Lohaus,Brad           1   0- 1    0- 0    0- 1    0- 0   0  0  0  0  0   0
Rivers,Doc            5   0- 1    0- 0    0- 0    1- 2   1  0  0  0  2   0
TOTALS              265  44-87   17-23    4-17    7-40  28  9  1 15 23 109

     FG %: .506  FT %: .739  Three %: .235  Team Rebs: 7  Team TOs: 0


Orlando (122)

                POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF  TP
Scott,Dennis      F  43   5-14    0- 0    3- 9    0- 2   5  1  0  2  2  13
Grant,Horace      F  44   6-13    9-12    0- 0    4-15   5  1  3  2  1  21
O'Neal,Shaquille  C  38   9-18    8-11    0- 0    3-12   3  0  1  2  5  26
Anderson,Nick     G  44  12-18    2- 2    7-10    0- 2   1  2  1  1  4  33
Hardaway,Anfernee G  44   6-12    4- 5    0- 3    1- 6  12  5  0  3  0  16
Shaw,Brian           21   3- 4    0- 0    1- 2    1- 2   4  1  1  4  4   7
Wolf,Joe             10   1- 4    0- 0    0- 0    0- 2   0  0  0  0  2   2
Koncak,Jon           10   1- 1    0- 0    0- 0    1- 2   0  0  0  0  2   2
Bowie,Anthony        11   0- 1    2- 2    0- 0    1- 3   0  0  0  1  1   2
TOTALS              265  43-85   25-32   11-24   11-46  30 10  6 15 21 122

     FG %: .506  FT %: .781  Three %: .458  Team Rebs: 5  Team TOs: 1

               San Antonio               30 24 16 33  6 -- 109
               Orlando                   28 28 25 22 19 -- 122

[whottt]

Kaster, as you can see, Shaq didn't dominate .

Dave kicked his ass, he hung triple doubles on him, he hung near quadruple doubles on him, he plagued his dumbass with fouls and beat his ass.

Shaq didn't even look like he belonged on the court with David Robinson because David was so much quicker and so much more athletic. David can go past him and dunk on his as at will.

When Shaq says no one has dunked on him more than once he is lying. Drob used to stuff so many basketball down his fat ing face Shaq would visibly frustrated on the court.

Shaq, like Hakeem could not guard David Robinson without being in severe foul trouble, this is why David Robinson was always double teamed in the playoffs, including when he played Hakeem.

You look at that playoff series VS the Rockets. You will see that David averaged @ 12 FT per game...while Hakeem only averaged about 2 fouls per game. Do the math on that, and you will see that it was obvious Robinson was being double teamed.



Drob has winning record against Shaq.
He has a winning record against Ewing.
He has a bigtime ing winning record against Hakeem.

Houston is not a small market like SA.

Harris County is 3rd most populous country in the United States.

Greater Houston is the 9th largest city(and I think it's bigger actually) in the US.

The Houston metropolitan area is the third largerst area in the US.

I'm pretty sure Houston is the #3 TV market in the NBA. At worst it's a top ten market.


San Antonio is the ing smallest market in the NBA. Not one of the smallest, the smallest. This hurts media coverage of this town. Not as badly as it used too...but it still hurts.

And while Drob played in the era of cable, the games still weren't that readily available in most of the USA when he was in his prime...San Antonio can win a le and still not be a popular selection for the major networks to this day...you can imagine what it was like in the early 90's.

I know I saw Drob play more than most of the people that judge Shaq better. And it wasn't hard to see Shaq on TV back then because he was the media darling even then. heads in NY did not see Drob play as much.

[whottt]

Let's look at what Shaq did in the regular season...A butt load of FG% les, two scoring les, an IBM award and an MVP.

I'll give Shaq that he was a better PCT shooter...ooops...no I won't, Shaq was a horrible FT shooter...factor that in and Drob was the superior PCT shooter as well.

David Robinson...a blocked shots le, a scoring le, a rebounding le. 5 IMB awards(when Jordan and Hakeem and even Magic were in the league. 2 times the biggest single season turn around in NBA history.

David's best scoring season is better than Shaq's...as is his best blocks, steals, assists...I think Shaq averaged more board 1 year but he missed a few games. In any case he never won a boarding le.

And don't give me playoffs...when Shaq won he had Kobe.....Kobe is good enough that when LA was forced to choose, they chose Kobe over Shaq.

And don't give me ing polls either...I can show a poll where people said LA was going to win the le last year....Polls don't mean .

Drob and Jordan are the only players in NBA history to win a scoring le and a DPOY le. And so on and so forth....

Drob's playoff record head to head VS Shaq is 2-2. VS the mighty Lakers Drob is 3-2. Not many can say they have a winning playoff record against the Lakers.



And yes Drob's career was short, Drob did not have the career Shaq had...remember he sat out 2 years of his career serving in the millitary...

He also represented team US 8 times, more than any other man. He played in the Olympics 3 times, more than any other man.

In 96, he played with a hernia in the Olympics...and he was never the same player after that.

When they were both healthy, Drob could guard Shaq(something he could do even in his final season), Shaq always struggled to guard Drob.

That's why Shaq hated Drob and not Hakeem.....Hakeem worked to be greater...Drob was just flat out better, just by walking out on the court, and he did it Shaq's home town....Drob erased Shaq's fat ass from this towns heart. Actually, that talent without working thing pissed a lot of Drob's contemporaries off and even a few SpurFans.

Drob is the most under-rated player in NBA history, bar none. I could go on but there's not much more that needs to be said. Either accept the truth that Drob was superior or live in ignorance.

[polandprzem]

That wottt is talking about.

[CosmicCowboy]

David Robinson is a great guy and IMHO is a better "man" that Shaq...

IMHO, however, Shaq is unquestionably the more dominant center...and may not have even peaked yet...a lot of those statistics you are relying on to "prove" DRob was "better" were matchups between DRob in his prime and Shaq when he was still learning how to really play in the NBA...I will be the first to admit that beyond muscling to the basket and dunking Shaq had limited skills when he came into the league but has added to his arsenal every year...and if he controls his weight I expect him to surprise you guys again this year...he is still unbelievably explosive for a guy that big...

[Phenomanul]

Whott... thanks for reposting the box scores.... they are self-evident....

[whottt]

He who thinks we should've signed Mike Olowokandi is not allowed to cast a vote on this subject.

[CosmicCowboy]

I personally preferred Rasho over Kandi...I simply took the side of the argument that Kandi wasn't as awful as you said he was...and in that particular case you might have been right...

but if you are the kind of guy to keep bringing old glorious highlights of your life up over and over and over and over I'll bet your friends are getting tired of that story of how you almost got laid at that party 5 years ago...

[Medvedenko]

Shaq is better.

[Phenomanul]

David Robinson is a great guy and IMHO is a better "man" that Shaq...

IMHO, however, Shaq is unquestionably the more dominant center...and may not have even peaked yet...a lot of those statistics you are relying on to "prove" DRob was "better" were matchups between DRob in his prime and Shaq when he was still learning how to really play in the NBA...I will be the first to admit that beyond muscling to the basket and dunking Shaq had limited skills when he came into the league but has added to his arsenal every year...and if he controls his weight I expect him to surprise you guys again this year...he is still unbelievably explosive for a guy that big...

Again I'm not saying Shaq is notably inferior to DRob... but he is not immensely superior to him. And that is exactly what the media has painted Shaq out to be... as some indomitable foe. And the boxscores clearly show DRob was his master... and that he tamed the supposedly indomitable Shaq. When healthy.

Now you make a case for considering Shaq's age and learning curve into the picture... I can buy that. But know this... David's talent allowed him to be a force from the get-go. Recall his first game against the Lakers (shown on the first post of this thread).

I guess we will never know how those careers would have panned out had they entered the league the same year. But by your logic (that Shaq was still learning when he entered the league)... DRob would have owned his number for even more years!!!

Again the core of the matter as to why DRob is underrated stems from the fact that San Antonio's market doesn't appeal nationally... and that is the only reason why people really can't appreciate the full versatility of David's game.

[Phenomanul]

Shaq is better.

How old are you???? Can you even make a statement on the topic without looking ignorant... I'm not trying to diss you or anything but a three word argument won't get the job done around here. Back it up with substance.

If you've only been watching basketball since the entrance of your boy Slava into the league... David was already playing second fiddle on a bad back. You would need to see footage of him vs Shaq when they were both healthy...

[Medvedenko]

I have Drob's rookie card...I still think he's a . Great player, still a saxaphone jesus freak.
I don't need to spout my Ball knowledge anymore. This is my opinion.
I have seen the footage when both were healthy, playoffs anyone.

[Phenomanul]

I have Drob's rookie card...I still think he's a . Great player, still a saxaphone jesus freak.
I don't need to spout my Ball knowledge anymore. This is my opinion.
I have seen the footage when both were healthy, playoffs anyone.

Not enough substance... just an opinion..


BTW if you think Robinson is a B**** I would dare you to tell him face to face ... him and his 20 inch biceps.

And what footage did you see... the one where he got a Triple Double against Shaq or maybe that close Quadruple Double.

[Useruser666]

I have seen the footage when both were healthy, playoffs anyone.

Um, if you are refering to playoffs where Shaq played vs. DRob then that is the unfair comparrison that others here have already discounted. DRob was already hurting by that time and Shaq was just in his prime.

[Medvedenko]

It doesn't matter...they're both good.
Of course it's unfair, that's what historians will have to argue about.
I have my opinion in watching games from both players, they are both legendary players.

[fonzy16]

The best thing Shaq ever did is leave LA. And the second best thing will be when he smacks that kobe when he comes around. I hope they both get injured when they at each other.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

hey lets all gang up on the dissenting opinion

[RobinsontoDuncan]

dont get me worng of course i love DRob, he is my fav. player of all time, i still wish he never retired. But you just cant make this comparison. They were players that had two different hay days. Can we be sure shaq would have been better than DRob had they both been rookies at the same time, no but then who the cares. Anyone who doesnt think that David Robinson was one of the best baskettball players ever isnt too bright, likewise with shaq. So debating who was better is a waste.

[whottt]

No need to debate, when they were both physically fit David dominated Shaq, not the other way around.

I don't care if Shaq was a rookie, those boxscores show their matchup for Shaq's first 4 years in the league.

Drob won the IBM award as a rookie, IBM award being given to the player who does the most to help his team win.

Drob took a team that won 21 games and caused them to have the biggest single season turnaround in NBA history.

Drob took that team to game 7, double OT of the WCSF, against the eventual conference champs as a rookie.

Drob smoked Hakeem as a rookie, a rookie who had sat out for 2 years.

Shaq himself has said his best season was his second, Drob was better that year.

Shbaq didn't even get his team to the playoffs as a rookie.

As for their later matchups...

Say whatever you want Medvedenko but Drob was no longer the first option by the time they met in the playoofs, he was near crippled and he still held Shaq to his playoff lows in FG% and PPG every time they met in the post season. Both had a younger talented teamate...result of their meeting in the post season, Shaq 2 Drob 2. And Duncan wasn't guarding Shaq.

And I can show the boxscore from the last time the Spurs made DRob the primary option against Shaq...he had Shaq's ass on the bench in foul trouble at half time. And that was the old broken down DRob...Shaq could not guard Drob, he did not have the quickness to do it...Dave could guard Shaq, even in the last year of his career.

That Shaq was would have been better than DRob when both were healthy is a myth and an opinion...That Drob was better when both were healthy is a fact.

And I posted the proof of it.

CC, you might as well get used to it...I am never going to let you forget Olo.

[E20]

But based on talent alone.

1) Wilt
2) Hakeem
3) Kareem
4) Robinson
5) Russell
6) Shaq

I agree with this list and the one before it.

[boutons]

NBA TV (re)ran their program on Wilt's career today. I've seen it a couple of times, but he still amazes. Terrible shame he died so young at 63.

NBA has quite a few clips of Wilt on lots of topics. He was reflective, respectful, respected, and articulate (he could actuallly speak English, Bill Cosby would appreciate). A credit to the game, and his race, unlike to many of the current crop of jerks.

Comparing the six on the list above, Shaq is really lacking in stature, professionally (50 pounds overweight, outta shape, no doubt contributing to being hurt so much) and personally (childish jackass).

[BronxCowboy]

...not to mention that if offensive fouls were called properly, Shaq would always foul out in the first half with less than 10 points...