Is smallball the future of the NBA contenders?

[Mavs<Spurs]

The European style of basketball has finally made its way into some of the NBA's best teams and it even appears successful in the playoffs.

After all, the Mavs could not defeat the Spurs without smallball. It was the mismatches that created the necessary advantages for the Mavs to win.

The Mavs are still playing some smallball against the Suns.

Moreover, it appears highly likely that the Mavs will advance into the finals, easier than I had thought (although the absence of Raja Bell precipitated the drop off of the cliff- to say nothing of Kurt Thomas or one of the winners of the genetic lottery (as Bill Walton says), Amare Stoudamire.

If the Mavs do advance into the Finals (as seems inevitable) and if they play the Heat (I have not yet given up hope on the Pistons - although the Heat must be considered the favorite at this point with a 3-1 advantage) will they play small ball? Will it be successful?

In a word, no. No, it will not. It can work against the Spurs because our bigs are not good enough to make the Mavs pay for it when the Spurs are on offense. Moreover, some of our perimeter players already had their best seasons a while back. However, Wade is 1 of the 5 best players in the league and has no age issues whatsoever. More importantly, Shaq is dominating inside again. This is against a Detroit team which has great individual defenders. On defense, clearly Ben + Sheed >>>> Dampier + Diop.
If Detroit can't stop Shaq (and they aren't playing smallball), then certainly Dallas can't stop Shaq if they do play smallball since his defenders would be much smaller.

The Heat can make Dallas pay dearly if they try to go smallball because Shaq, unlike Rasho and Nazr, has the offensive game to punish them in the low post. Therefore, whatever Shaq gives up on defense against smaller quicker opponents, he more than makes up for on offense. Shaq's shots will be higher percentage than his opposite number on Dallas's side. Therefore, Dallas will lose that battle.

If Rasho and Nazr were great players on the offensive side of the ball, we would not have gone small. However, playing them would have hurt us more than it would have given us. Since this is not the case with Shaq, Dallas can't go small.

If Dallas goes small against the Heat, Wade will score 40 or 50 and Shaq will score 30 every game. Moreover, Dallas will get 2 or 3 defensive rebounds the entire game.

On defense, if Dallas goes small, Miami will go zone and play Shaq in the paint, shutting down the lane. Dallas will shoot perimeter jumpshots and Miami will shoot dunks. Hence, Dallas will lose.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Also, in this issue, one must consider the versatility of players one would use for this type of team.

It is clear that the prototypical player would be the Shawn Marion/Boris Diaw/LeBron James model. In the past, Scottie Pippen would be the example par excellance.

The most clear advantage from having this type of player who can play multiple positions (instead of a specialist with an exact position which can not be altered) is on pick and roll/ screen defense. No advantage is gained by the pick and roll or screen on offense if you trading equivalent players. This would demolish the Suns plan and be highly detrimental to Dallas (using the pick and roll or screens to get a matchup advantage of Dirk vs a small or Dirk vs an immobile big).

[MadDog73]

In a word, no. No, it will not. It can work against the Spurs because our bigs are not good enough to make the Mavs pay for it when the Spurs are on offense. Moreover, some of our perimeter players already had their best seasons a while back. However, Wade is 1 of the 5 best players in the league and has no age issues whatsoever. More importantly, Shaq is dominating inside again. This is against a Detroit team which has great individual defenders. On defense, clearly Ben + Sheed >>>> Dampier + Diop.

Hmmm. But Dampier and Diop are 12 fouls against Shaq.

Foul Shaq so he misses free throws.

Dirk and Wade will cancel each other out.


Howard + Terry >>>>> Williams and Walker.

I'm not saying the Mavs will win, but it's not inconcievable.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if you want small ball, look at the suns as an example, we tottally humiliated them last season.

The thing with dallas this season is not smallball, they have dirk which causes us mismatches. The suns team have small guyz that play out of position and they are willin to give up defense.

stick to the traditional rotation and we can beat them.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Hmmm. But Dampier and Diop are 12 fouls against Shaq.

Foul Shaq so he misses free throws.

Dirk and Wade will cancel each other out.


Howard + Terry >>>>> Williams and Walker.

I'm not saying the Mavs will win, but it's not inconcievable.

I agree that it's not inconceivable.
IMO, Wade > Dirk. However, Dirk, I must admit, is playing out of this world, especially impressive is his rebounding.

On the other hand, Haslem is a good rebounder. Shaq is a good rebounder. Wade is a good rebounder. Posey and Zo can give you some boards also.
Dirk will get fewer boards against Miami. This will also affect his scoring (off of offensive rebounds) a little. Plus, the thing that has taken his game to the next level is his going to the rim and posting up more. That won't happen in Miami. He will shoot jumpshots in Miami or not shoot at all or the orange will be pounded out of the ball.

I think a lot of people don't think about intentionally fouling Shaq the right way. The truth is that it only helps you if your defense is not capable of holding Miami to a lower shooting percentage than his free throw shooting percentage. Good defensive teams will hold an opponent to much lower than 50 %. A really good defensive team will hold an opponent to 45 % or lower.
But Shaq normally shoots free throws higher than this. Therefore, it is a bad defensive tactic that good defensive teams won't resort to (except in almost hopeless situations at the end of the game to extend it).

Here's how I see it:

Miami's role players = Dallas role players.
Wade= Dirk.
But Shaq> whoever's left.

Hence, Miami > Dallas.

2 dominating stars > 1 star.

[jamezyjamez]

Here's how I see it:

Miami's role players = Dallas role players.
Wade= Dirk.
But Shaq> whoever's left.

Hence, Miami > Dallas.

2 dominating stars > 1 star.

or maybe...

2 dominating stars < dominating team

Any GM/coach in the league would take Terry over JWill/Payton, Howard over Toine, Stack over Posey.

If both teams make it, it would be a good series. I just think Dallas is too deep. Big or small - Dallas has the personnel to match up.

[Extra Stout]

Haslem is the more athletic kind of 4 who can do a decent enough job on Dirk to stay on the floor.

Therefore, Miami doesn't have to upend their entire scheme to match up with Dallas.

We're heralding this "small ball" revolution because the Spurs' slothlike bigs could not stay on the floor against Dallas. The Mavericks' "small ball," keep in mind, consists of two 7-footers. The only thing unconventional about it is that Nowitzki is as deadly from the perimeter as he is from the high post.

What I think we're seeing is the fruits of the shift away from contenders trying to match up with a now-aging Shaq. Bulk is no longer as important as athleticism.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Haslem is the more athletic kind of 4 who can do a decent enough job on Dirk to stay on the floor.

Therefore, Miami doesn't have to upend their entire scheme to match up with Dallas.

We're heralding this "small ball" revolution because the Spurs' slothlike bigs could not stay on the floor against Dallas. The Mavericks' "small ball," keep in mind, consists of two 7-footers. The only thing unconventional about it is that Nowitzki is as deadly from the perimeter as he is from the high post.

What I think we're seeing is the fruits of the shift away from contenders trying to match up with a now-aging Shaq. Bulk is no longer as important as athleticism.

I agree with this post. Isn't Rasho an example of this type of thinking (ie didn't we get and retain Rasho in order to help combat Shaq?). Shaq is older, but he is still dominating (at least in these playoffs). Good point that Dallas' small ball includes two 7 footers.


and from the Mavs poster, I will admit that I can't find fault with two of your three comparisons.
Certainly, Terry (still hate his cheap shot) > JWill and/or Payton.
Obviously, Howard light years better than Antoine or Posey.
However, Stackhouse > Posey when Stackhouse has a good game. On the other hand, Stackhouse < Posey much or most of the time. I say this for several reasons: Posey is a better defensive player than Stackhouse. Stackhouse does not shoot a high percentage from 3 (does he) and yet takes the 3 pretty often. Posey shoots 40 % or better from 3. Also, isn't Posey younger than Stackhouse? Remember Stackhouse has about as many bad or mediocre games as he does good games.

5 really good players can beat a team with only 1 superstar and/or a team with 4 superstars who are complacent.
Can a team with 1 superstar and 2 good players beat a team with 2 superstars? This is what we will find out.

Dallas is extremely athletic and the deepest team in the NBA.

On the other hand, Miami may be able to beat them with Wade and Shaq.
If they don't, a large portion of my life will stink since the players on Dallas should all be in jail and they are basically horrible human beings. Cuban doesn't help anything. AJ should have improved this, but he clearly didn't.
I hate Dallas.

Finally, against the percentages I know, but Pistons might come back and beat the Heat in 7 and then play the kind of ball they played last year and beat Dallas in the Finals.


Go whoever plays Dallas!!!

[Trainwreck2100]

or maybe...

2 dominating stars < dominating team

Any GM/coach in the league would take Terry over JWill/Payton, Howard over Toine, Stack over Posey.

If both teams make it, it would be a good series. I just think Dallas is too deep. Big or small - Dallas has the personnel to match up.

You're team has been for from dominating this postseason.

[texlawman]

I disagree. Our team has been playing extremely well this post season. Dominating no, but playing at a very high level.
Memphis was swept. Only team in first round to sweep.
Spurs as defending champs were beat twice on home floor.
Phoenix is getting dominated and looks defeated. They are very lucky to not be down 3-0. I don't think they will win another game this series IMO.

I think Dallas/Miami will be a good series. I do think we have the depth to match up with them. Shaq and Wade will get their points, I will be interested to see if Walker can give them anything in our series. If so, I think it goes seven.

[Mavtek]

Why do Spurs fans think the Mavs were playing small ball? What about our lineup was small? We had 2 guards over 6' on the court a 3 that runs 6'7" and 2 7 footers. What about that lineup is small?

[Trainwreck2100]

fine then, change smallball to "game lacking of any semblance of defense"

[Mavs<Spurs]

I disagree. Our team has been playing extremely well this post season. Dominating no, but playing at a very high level.
Memphis was swept. Only team in first round to sweep.
Spurs as defending champs were beat twice on home floor.
Phoenix is getting dominated and looks defeated. They are very lucky to not be down 3-0. I don't think they will win another game this series IMO.

I think Dallas/Miami will be a good series. I do think we have the depth to match up with them. Shaq and Wade will get their points, I will be interested to see if Walker can give them anything in our series. If so, I think it goes seven.

I understand what you are saying, but counterarguments can be made. You might very well be right and it makes sense what you are saying.

However, counterarguments could be made. Some may find them convincing. Others won't and you probably know the arguments already (which means that they are not out of the realm of possibility even from your perspective).

First, Memphis was your opponent and they had never ever won a single game in the playoffs. ever. Moreover, Pau had pf. Hence, you had an easy series. Thus, you were fresher and rested for the San Antonio series.

Second, Spurs played the Kings in a tough 6 game series where they got banged around. Spurs lost game 2 at home by 20 points. This is an anomaly and we can reasonably look for an explanation. We find it in the fact that it was the 3rd game of the Spurs in 5 days after a grueling battle with the Kings. Many Spurs fans, including me, feel we have legitimate gripes with the officiating in games 2, 3 and 4. Game 2, you all killed us, with or without the officiating. However, games 3 and 4, some Spurs fans will feel cheated out of. In game 7, Spurs were up by 3 with 40 seconds left and made a mental mistake by fouling Dirk, giving up a 3 point play.

Third, Phoenix is not as good as last year and we beat them in 5 last year. With Amare.
With an opponent who lost Amare Stoudamire, Kurt Thomas and Raja Bell, we would hope that you would sweep them or at the very least win every single game by double digits that Raja does not play in. Remember what his contributions to the Suns have been earlier in the playoffs.

So, up to now, many basketball fans, and Spurs fans in particular, will take a wait and see issue as to what you all have done in the post season. The Finals will tell us what we want to know. We know that you all have a great team. But are you a champion? Are you a contender? Or are you a pretender who looked great playing weakened opposition?

Answer comes late in June.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Why do Spurs fans think the Mavs were playing small ball? What about our lineup was small? We had 2 guards over 6' on the court a 3 that runs 6'7" and 2 7 footers. What about that lineup is small?

First, you all had two 6 foot point guards on the floor at the same time.
Normally, a shooting guard is 6'6".

Second, Dirk is not really a power forward. He is more like a small forward in that he plays a lot on the perimeter. Look at his rebounding (until these playoffs) as an example. He rarely posts up. Therefore, many people consider him a tall small forward.

Third, compare Rasho and Duncan to Dampier and Dirk. Rasho = Dampier, but Duncan is a beast in the post and Dirk isn't. Duncan is a tremendous shot blocking presence in the paint and Dirk isn't.

there it is. it is what is. smallball.

[mavsfan1000]

Small ball has more to do with not playing a center. Putting Dirk at Center is small ball. Most teams aren't able to take advantage of the size difference at the 2 guard. Josh Howard is able to guard the bigger small forwards.

[Mavtek]

First, you all had two 6 foot point guards on the floor at the same time.
Normally, a shooting guard is 6'6".

Second, Dirk is not really a power forward. He is more like a small forward in that he plays a lot on the perimeter. Look at his rebounding (until these playoffs) as an example. He rarely posts up. Therefore, many people consider him a tall small forward.

Third, compare Rasho and Duncan to Dampier and Dirk. Rasho = Dampier, but Duncan is a beast in the post and Dirk isn't. Duncan is a tremendous shot blocking presence in the paint and Dirk isn't.

there it is. it is what is. smallball.

No, sorry Terry is not a point guard in our lineup, Harris the point and Terry plays the shooting guard which is what he's better at anyway. Look at Houston, Miami, New York, Toronto, (in reality Detroit, I'm sorry but Rip isn't 6'7" and he weighs all of 100lbs), Golden State play this same lineup and it's not considered small. The Suns are playing small ball because their entire front court is well under 7'.

Oh and You're just crazy if you think Dirk rebounding is an anomally, he's been in the top 20 in rebounding for the last 4 years.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Small ball has more to do with not playing a center. Putting Dirk at Center is small ball. Most teams aren't able to take advantage of the size difference at the 2 guard. Josh Howard is able to guard the bigger small forwards.

I would consider putting Dirk at the center, tiny ball.

[Mavs<Spurs]

No, sorry Terry is not a point guard in our lineup, Harris the point and Terry plays the shooting guard which is what he's better at anyway. Look at Houston, Miami, New York, Toronto, (in reality Detroit, I'm sorry but Rip isn't 6'7" and he weighs all of 100lbs), Golden State play this same lineup and it's not considered small. The Suns are playing small ball because their entire front court is well under 7'.

Oh and You're just crazy if you think Dirk rebounding is an anomally, he's been in the top 20 in rebounding for the last 4 years.

So, when you started Terry but not Devin, what was that? Did you not have a point guard?

Try again.

Terry is 6'3" with his shoes on. Wade is 6'6" and it seems to me that most shooting guards in the NBA are taller than Terry by at least 2 or 3 inches. Rip may not be 6'7". On the other hand, he is taller than 6'3".
Kobe is 6'6". Manu is 6'5". The true slam dunk champ is 6'6".

He didn't average double figures in any previous regular season (probably not in any postseason- over any significant amount of games) in rebounding.
Therefore, it seems fair to say that Dirk rebounding in double figures is an anomaly.

I will also offer what I admit to be a guess: Is it not the case that the amount of rebounds that starters grab begins to converge as you move down the list of rebounders? In other words as x approaches 20, y approaches 8... (if x is the place of the starter in terms of rebounding and y is the number of rebounds grabbed per game)?

Pretty soon down that far on the list, you are going to find Tony Parker (okay an exaggeration).

If Dirk is 7 foot, then should he not be in the top 5 or at least the top 10 every year? Does this not show that he plays smaller than his size?

I notice that you didn't discuss Dirk's prowess at defending the paint and turning everyone away from the rim! Why was that?

If Dirk plays smaller than a power forward and Devin Harris didn't suddenly become your 6 foot shooting guard and Terry is no taller than 6'3" (and probably considerably shorter), then it seems legitimate to consider them a small ball team.

I hate Dallas, but you all do have a good team. If I can admit that you all are a good team, then can't you admit that Dallas is playing a lineup that could reasonably be considered smallball?

To me, it still appears that Dallas is playing small ball.

[mavsfan1000]

If there is a position to be undersized in than shooting guard is it. How many shooting guards post up? I say the 2 small guards is a good idea as long as you have size at SF, PF, and C which Dallas has.

[BillsCarnage]

if you want small ball, look at the suns as an example, we tottally humiliated them last season.

Yet here they are in the WCF's while the Spurs are fishing. Last season is just that, last season.

he suns team have small guyz that play out of position and they are willin to give up defense.

I don't think they're willing to give up on defense. They don't realy have a choice when you're matched up against players 3-4" taller than them.

Smaller, generally, = run more.

stick to the traditional rotation and we can beat them.

So KT and Amare wouldn't make them a traditional lineup?

[Trainwreck2100]

Yet here they are in the WCF's while the Spurs are fishing. Last season is just that, last season.

Considering that the Spurs had to play the ing Mavs, while you had a cakewalk to the WCFs that's a pretty weak defense

[Mavtek]

So, when you started Terry but not Devin, what was that? Did you not have a point guard?

Try again.

Terry is 6'3" with his shoes on. Wade is 6'6" and it seems to me that most shooting guards in the NBA are taller than Terry by at least 2 or 3 inches. Rip may not be 6'7". On the other hand, he is taller than 6'3".
Kobe is 6'6". Manu is 6'5". The true slam dunk champ is 6'6".

He didn't average double figures in any previous regular season (probably not in any postseason- over any significant amount of games) in rebounding.
Therefore, it seems fair to say that Dirk rebounding in double figures is an anomaly.

I will also offer what I admit to be a guess: Is it not the case that the amount of rebounds that starters grab begins to converge as you move down the list of rebounders? In other words as x approaches 20, y approaches 8... (if x is the place of the starter in terms of rebounding and y is the number of rebounds grabbed per game)?

Pretty soon down that far on the list, you are going to find Tony Parker (okay an exaggeration).

If Dirk is 7 foot, then should he not be in the top 5 or at least the top 10 every year? Does this not show that he plays smaller than his size?

I notice that you didn't discuss Dirk's prowess at defending the paint and turning everyone away from the rim! Why was that?

If Dirk plays smaller than a power forward and Devin Harris didn't suddenly become your 6 foot shooting guard and Terry is no taller than 6'3" (and probably considerably shorter), then it seems legitimate to consider them a small ball team.

I hate Dallas, but you all do have a good team. If I can admit that you all are a good team, then can't you admit that Dallas is playing a lineup that could reasonably be considered smallball?

To me, it still appears that Dallas is playing small ball.

FYI Dwayne Wade is 6'4" with shoes on.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dwyane....html?nav=page

Sorry to dissapoint you.

Dirk plays like a lot of 7 footers in the league, he blocks just as many shots, rebounds better than a lot of them, so no I don't see how he is playing smaller than he is. Brad Miller is actually larger overall than Dirk, but Dirk beats him in all areas, Gasol, Okur, even Stoudamire block and rebound about the same as Dirk. So now you've just shown that even more teams are playing small I guess. Look at the league as a whole in the PF slot and the picture even looks brighter for Dirk.

Like I said and get it right please, In the lineup of Terry, Harris, Howard, Dirk, and Diop/Damp, Terry plays SG while Harris plays PG. When Harris isn't on the court you'll occasionally see Terry slide into pg duty, but mostly we run the offense through Dirk at that point, or Stack or Griff. Watch......

[DDS4]

If Manu didn't foul Dirk, would we even have this discussion?

[Mavs_man_41]

If Manu didn't foul Dirk, would we even have this discussion?

so what he fouled him and here we are having this discussion.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Dirk is, as has become obvious to all, one of the elite players in the mvp and one of only a couple of players who could make a legitimate claim to deserve the mvp award. Avery, Charles Barkley, Kenny Smith and most of the media have been begging Dirk to post up smaller defenders, drive to the rim more, rebound better and play better defense. Other than his defense, he has definitely added the others to his game.

I expect 7 footers, power forwards or centers, to average double digits in rebounds.

Gasol should get more rebounds. So, we agree there. Miller likewise is too much of a perimeter player. However, until this postseason, even Miller could play better in the post than Dirk. Hence, in my view, Gasol and Miller, like Dirk, should rebound better and block more shots.

A true 7 foot power forward should be a tremendous shot blocking presence inside. Dirk just isn't. He is not a serious obstacle to overcome.

Good big men, power forwards and centers, should average 2 + shotblocks a night, defend the paint well from all comers, grab 10 or more rebounds a game and score 20 points a game, primarily in the paint.

Regarding height, Wade has at least 2 or 3 inches on Terrry. Moreover, Wade is much stronger than him.

Small shooting guards are a defensive liability. The extra height, strength and athleticism helps when driving to the rim.


Did Avery not make an adjustment from game 1 to game 2 which made Dallas smaller, but quicker? Was this not starting Devin Harris at pg and moving Jason Terry to shooting guard? Surely you are aware that most NBA commentators have taken those statements as true.


I understand what you are saying, but the final effect is not the traditional Spurs model of basketball: A 7 foot center who defends the paint, rebounds and scores inside, a power forward who scores with his back to the basket, defends the paint and grabs 10 + rebounds a game, a 6'6" small forward who guards the other team's best swingman offensive player, a 6'5" shooting guard and a 6'2" point guard. Compared to this model, the Mavericks play small ball.

Part of this stems from if you view Dirk as a tall small forward who mostly shoots from the perimeter. Until recently, this was undoubtedly the case. Hence, he required a mobile perimeter defender, which was usually not a power forward. Rather, it was a Bruce Bowen, small forward who guarded him.

His willingness to post up more frequently, drive to the rim and grab more rebounds has altered this to a considerable extent.

That is the greatness of Dirk Nowitzki. These changes have made Dirk almost unguardable.

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree. A lot may depend upon your perspective and to whom you are comparing the Mavericks.