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Phoenix beats Dallas in 5.
JMarkJohns was right about several things.
I am not pro or con with regard to the Suns.
I am a Spurs fan, then a Pistons fan.
After that, whoever plays the Mavs (and I admit that).
First, face started all this junk by his ridiculous thread so JMarkJohns had every right to call him on it after the Mavs fell apart.
But more importantly, I think that JMarkJohns is going to enjoy 06-07 a lot more than face, especially after his Suns take down the Mavs in 5 in this coming year's playoffs.
The only team that Dallas can play and be a contender with is a small ball team.
But Phoenix will play better small ball than Dallas.
Therefore, Phoenix will beat Dallas in the playoffs and beat them badly.
(proviso: supposing that Nash stays healthy and Amare is fully recovered).
Nash, Raja, Diaw, Marion and Stoudamire starting.
House, Barbosa, Thomas off the bench.
Phoenix team is faster, stronger and more athletic than Dallas.
Diaw can play any position. Marion can guard Dirk.
Phoenix has more versatile players.
What Dallas does well, Phoenix does better.
Sorry, face.
Phoenix beats Dallas in 5.
Why are the Suns looking to trade Marion to the Bulls for Chandler and 1st round (2nd overall) pick. Sounds like they're thinking about changing the way they play a little bit cuz Marion is perfect for their system. I've read that the teams have been working on this deal for awhile now. Not sure if it will go down though.
If the Suns intend to keep Diaw and Barbosa someone has to be jettisoned. Marion's contract is the highest on the team and Diaw could be a great fit at the SF/PF position because he lacks the offensive inaccuracies that Marion does.
Getting Chandler and the #2 pick in the draft won't hurt either. The lineup could essentially be Nash, Bell, Diaw, Stoudemire, and Aldridge.
Not to undermine his value (because there is almost no equal in the NBA), but it would mainly be a contractual/financial move by the Suns.
Not to mention there are rumors that Barbosa may be packaged with one of the Suns' 2 1st round picks to Philly for Philly's 13th. That could be Saer Sene or Rodney Carney (supposed Marion clone).
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Why even begin discussing the possibilities of next year's matchups? That's almost as silly as some of the articles proclaiming the Suns the champs and that they'd have a shot at 70+ wins.
The games get played for a reason.
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But I do agree, JMARK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face
Thanks for the information! Also, Marion did struggle in the halfcourt offense vs. the Mavs but I highly doubt that would be taken into consideration.
Yes, Marion struggles in the half-court set as opposed to the fast-break style of play. He doesn't have a very reliable jump shot or 3 point shot, he can't create his own shot, and he's not strong in the post.
But what he can do is rebound and get points off of put backs. He's probably one of the highest leapers in the NBA and probably has the fastest 2nd jump in the NBA as well.
Marion has a penchant for going "casper" in the playoffs. Surprisingly he had a very good series against the Clippers and the Suns overcame their weaknesses to advance to the WCF.
He's a 20/10 guy who can play defense, has stamina (plays over 40+ nearly every game), and isn't a cancer in the locker room like a lot of players are.
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The Suns will NOT change the way they play. Marion is a key ingredient in the break, but with Nash, Amare, Diaw, et al. you can expect the Suns to maintain their break-neck style of play.
Afterall, last season they lost Amare, JJ, and Q and still was the best offensive team in the NBA. Actually they were the best in most of the offensive categories for teams. (scoring, fg%, 3pt%, ft%, fast-break points)
I know I got tired of seeing the Mavs score a hoop, blinking and then seeing the Suns making a layup at the other end. That was happening in a couple of the games. And then the Mavs had to play a team that was incredibly slow, it was a strange playoffs going from the Spurs, to the Suns, to the Heat.
Let's say that because Phoenix is supposedly so badass that they get the 1 seed in next year's playoffs. And then we'll say that Dallas gets the 2 and SA the 3 in a playoff that has the 1 seed playing the 4/5 in the second round.
PHX v. 8 in round 1, DAL v. 7, SA v. 6 and they all win...
PHX plays the winner of the 4/5 series and we can say that DAL and SA match up in round 2.
For Phoenix to have a shot to even beat Dallas in 5 games, you'd have to concede San Antonio once again losing to the Mavs in the 2nd round. I'm sure manurules won't want to just give that up so easily. If Phoenix is going to be so unstoppable next season, surely you can't argue for them NOT getting the #1 seed.
But also, to say "What Dallas does well, Phoenix does better" is incorrect. Phoenix had the best up-and-down game in the league all year and Dallas beat them at their own game just like San Antonio did the year before.
That's why Dallas moved forward in 6 games and not the Suns.
I agree it was a strange playoffs for the Mavs. They were able to showcase their ability to play to different strengths. Good for them.
But that's also why I like the Suns. Their refusal to submit to anybody else's gameplan. Every other team is almost forced to become a faster paced team. Adjustments and tweaks are made to lineups that aren't normally made or seen.
It's demoralizing to score and have the opposing team match your score within 2-3 seconds of a made basket. Creates a fear in the transition defense.
Suns have no choice but to try to win their way. They don't have the players to play any other way. The Mavs were that way, but decided that wasn't gonna get it done vs. the Spurs. All their changes were made to try to beat San Antonio.
Yes, but you could also say that they wouldn't submit because they couldn't. If another team wanted to play inside-out with a larger lineup, Phoenix still had to play their style and hope it kept up. They didn't have the bodies to counter other styles.
...one major flaw with this thread is that is states that I somehow suggested Dallas would have a better team than PHX next year.
My anti suns comments were strictly about them never being a serious le contender THIS YEAR, without Amare. I think if anyone rereads them (Thread le: Phoenix Suns: Take a Step Back) they will find that my comments are much less incendiary than the way JMark falsely portrays them when he makes sensationalized claims about the things I have said. Many professional experts/analysts (and even objective Suns fans) agree with my analysis.
On an unrelated note, it takes a grand leap of faith to assume, as manurules has, that Amare will come back and be the same player he was. Medical science dictates that this is unlikely though not impossible.
Anyway, JMark> Pussyface. He has a great sense of humor and a winning personality.
Here is the exact content of my "ridiculous" post that incited this jihad. This is exactly as it read:
"I think a lot of people will get on me for bagging on the feel-good Suns right after their elimination, but I sincerely am not that impressed with their playoff run this year. Let me explain.
"Although this seems ridiculous when someone says "hey they were two wins away from the Finals and perhaps a favorable matchup with Miami" lets take a closer look at how they got so close.
For one thing, these Suns finished the playoffs with a record of 10-10 (.500). (compare that with, for instance Dallas at 12-5 or Miami at 12-5)
Than consider who they played: I believe there are about 8 other teams in the NBA who could have qualified for this years WCFs if they had the Sun's path of playing the 2 LA franchises. This includes:
Miami
Dallas
SA
Detroit
NJ
CLE
SAC
Memphis (I like them to beat the Clippers, but its debatable)
Taking an objective step back, I believe, suggests that this year's Suns squad was largely a mirage."
Manurules, are these comments out of line? Do you think anyone other than a partisan Suns fan would be outraged by these "ridiculous" comments that you claim justify a personal crusade against me?
I thought that I read a post written by you where you said that the Suns were not a contender (or even a good team) even with Amare.
Imo, you were pretty incendiary (to use your word). I read that thread, pretty much in its entirety, one day before I started this thread.
I'm not an md. But I understood that Amare has a good chance of coming back from this surgery and that this was one of the reasons why they had him undergo this surgery now instead of later. I'm not an expert; so, I'll have to look into this.
the amare thing was just an aside.
I challenge anyone to go back and fact check the claims that I made in that post versus what Jmark claims that I claimed in the post.
You will find that he sensationalizes my claims ("you say the Suns are worhty of no serious praise" "you say the Suns are a sinking ship") almost without exception and with total disregard to fairness.
his arguments are faulty because in this case, his emotions have pretty clearly gotten the better of him in trying to defend the team he loves at all costs and without regard to the totality of the available information.
Face, I can accept those comments at face value.
But some of your other comments seemed like they were just ragging on him and the Suns without reason.
And you posted a lot about the Suns and their loss.
I think that I was about right when I predicted that you all would win, but that it would not be super easy (like a sweep).
Suns without Amare are not likely to beat you all in a 7 game series. I know that and not many people, even Suns fans, would dispute that.
But, if I remember correctly, you threw the Suns under the bus even with Amare and jumping on them after they did better than anyone had a right to expect, well that's a little harsh, don't you think.
I favored the Lakers over the Suns (they won that in 7).
I favored the Clippers over the Suns (Suns won that in 7).
I knew the Mavs would beat the Suns, but they lasted until 6 games (and it took a great finish by the Mavs to do it).
And I think that even in retrospect, those predictions make sense if you consider what was known at the time.
Therefore, they overachieved. Good on them.
My point to you is that I was never as harsh as what you may remember or were told by jmarks.
For instance, you are right to call them overacheivers. This is 100% consistent with them not being legit contenders. They OVERACHEIVED! That is the word I used in post for God's sake! I singled them out as being worthy of praise as overacheivers, but not serious contenders in 2006. Thats all.
I guess I could have been nicer about it. I could have posted "great season suns, you tried really hard despite adversity." I went my route because it is interesting and, i believe, true. one thing that reinforces that there is truth in what I said is how angry jmark and co have gotten. I certainly don't get mad when people criticize the Mavs, unless those criticisms are really hitting home on some level.
Okay, so you admit you made the comments about the Suns even if they had Amare. That's starting to cross a line and just say stuff to be a troll or a hater talking smack.
Nobody likes that (except maybe you).
Eventually, most people will defend their team when you go as far as you did and instigated all this.
What's wrong with Jihad, any way? Do you hate Islamists?
Can't even have a decent basketball conversation without attacking somebody?
What must Allah think?
Okay, that's fair enough. I can't expect any more than that.
Good job, Face.
...not sure where you are coming from here. I have my doubts about Amare ever being the same player again, but in the thread in question I admitted to Jmark that suns+ a healthy amare are a very scary team. my comments were strictly about this years incarnation of amareless Suns, and thats clear if you read the thread.
Lots of suppositions in here. Let's just say this: if Dallas and Phoenix meet in the playoffs and Amare and Nash are healthy, barring something really strange that throws off the calculations, I think the Suns would win the series. Not necessarily that Phoenix is the better team, but that the Mavs don't match up well against the Suns (due to the fact that I think that the only really good team Dallas can put out on the floor is a small ball team and I believe that Phoenix is a better small ball team with Nash healthy and Stoudamire healthy).
I think even Face will back me up that it is about matchups.
Utah is not better than Detroit, but Utah had a winning record against Detroit.
We lost, in part, because we don't match up well against you all.
The lesser team might have favorable matchups which they can exploit.
Dallas beat them at small ball this year without Amare. With Amare Phoenix is an even better small ball team, imo.
Last edited by themanurules; 06-23-2006 at 12:14 PM.
That's not what I remember, but I might be wrong. When I have time, I'll try to go check on that.
The other part is cuz you keep acting like a flamethrower, talking about evolution, jihad and you're an expert on science and philosophy too.
Just trying to get you to consider other people's points of views about nonbasketball topics.
They have forums for that other stuff. I'm here to talk basketball and the Spurs and the rest of the NBA too.
I referenced a "jihad" because jmark is engaged in a sort of personal holy war against me, in which I represent pure evil and he represents good in his mind. its the sort of hyperbole often used by people like Bill O'Reilly when someone takes them to task. i'll agree its grossly inapropriate, but kinda funny.
as to the mavs beating the suns next year if they have a healthy amare and nash, I think that would be a tall order. Your right, Im not convinced that we would win that series...it'd be very interesting.
Okay. I can accept that.
You can actually be a reasonable and a reasonably nice person, Face.
Cool.
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