Israel buys 2 nuclear-capable submarines

[Notorious H.O.P.]

Time to start looking into hybrids or electric cars.

Granted they already had nuclear capable submarines but this type of news at this time isn't going to help with the negotiations regarding Iran's nuclear aspirations.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...08-25-04-52-53

Israel buys 2 nuclear-capable submarines

By RAMIT PLUSHNICK-MASTI
Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM (AP) -- With the purchase of two more German-made Dolphin submarines capable of carrying nuclear warheads, military experts say Israel is sending a clear message to Iran that it can strike back if attacked by nuclear weapons.

The purchases come at a time when Iran is refusing to bow to growing Western demands to halt its nuclear program, and after Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

The new submarines, built at a cost of $1.3 billion with Germany footing one-third of the bill, have diesel-electric propulsion systems that allow them to remain submerged for longer periods of time than the three nuclear arms-capable submarines already in Israel's fleet, the Jerusalem Post reported.

The latest submarines not only would be able to carry out a first strike should Israel choose to do so, but they also would provide Israel with crucial second-strike capabilities, said Paul Beaver, a London-based independent defense analyst.

Israel is already believed to have that ability in the form of the Jericho-1 and Jericho-2 nuclear-capable ballistic missiles, which are buried so far underground they would survive a nuclear strike, he said.

"The Iranians would be very foolish if they attacked Israel," Beaver said.

German officials have said the contract for the new submarines was signed July 6, and the Jerusalem Post reported this week the subs will be operational shortly.

Israel, operating on a policy of nuclear ambiguity, has never confirmed or denied whether it has nuclear weapons. It is believed, however, to have the world's sixth-largest stockpile of atomic arms, including hundreds of warheads.

Iran so far has resisted calls by the U.N. Security Council to halt uranium enrichment, which can produce, among other things, the material for atomic bombs. The council set an Aug. 31 deadline that is accompanied by the threat of sanctions.

The dispute over Tehran's nuclear program revolves around Iran's insistence it wants to master the technology simply to generate electricity. Critics say Iran wants to make nuclear weapons.

The Dolphin submarine could be one of the best deterrents, Beaver said. The technology on the subs makes them undetectable and gives them defensive capabilities in the case of attack, he said.

"They are very well-built, very well-prepared, lots of interesting equipment, one of the best conventional submarines available," Beaver said. "We are talking about a third string of deterrence capabilities."

Michael Karpin, an expert on Israel's atomic weapons capabilities who published a book on the issue in the United States, said nuclear-armed submarines provide better second-strike capabilities than missiles launched from airplanes.

"Planes are vulnerable, unlike nuclear (armed) submarines that can operate for an almost unlimited amount of time without being struck," Karpin said. "Second-strike capabilities are a crucial element in any nuclear conflict."

In Germany, members of two opposition parties criticized the deal. Winfried Nachtwei, national security spokesman for the Greens, said the decision was wrong because Germany had obtained no guarantee the submarines would not be used to carry nuclear weapons.

"This red line should not be crossed," Nachtwei was quoted as saying by the newspaper Taz. "Otherwise it is a complete renunciation of Germany's policy of non-proliferation."

David Menashri, an Israeli expert on Iran, said Tehran is clearly determined to obtain nuclear weapons and "the purchase of additional Dolphin submarines by Israel is a small footnote in this context."

What also makes Tehran dangerous, Beaver said, is that it may not understand the consequences of carrying out a nuclear strike.

"They (Iran) have a belligerent leadership and that's why Israel is prudent in ensuring that it has that deterrent capability," Beaver said. "What they (the submarines) are is a very good insurance policy."

[boutons_]

If I were 6-million/David Israel facing a 70-million/Goliath of a Holocaust-denying Iran pocketing $4B/month in oil reveunes and whose public, official position is to destroy Jew-dog Israel, I wouldn't around with engaging Iran in diplomacy. I'd be arming my scared self to the teeth with every weapon I could afford.

btw, the current, apparenlty withering review of Israeli's miltiary performanc in S. Lebanon against a new type of enemy means, for me, the next time the Isrealis take on that type of enemy, the Israeli military will peform much better, with munitions adapted to urban fortifications.

I'm surprised that the Israelis needed daylight to trace the rocket trails back to the launch sites rather than having some kind of radar scouring S. Lebanon 86,400 seconds/day.

[101A]

What would happen to the price of oil (and the profits of BIG oil) if Iran (and a great amount of territory surrounding it) were to become uninhabitible for the next 200 years?

Maybe that's why we haven't tried diplomacy.

[boutons_]

Does anybody know whether the US has sold Israel cruise missiles?

An Israeli sub with (non-nuclear) payload could sneak a lot closer to Tehran in the Persian Gulf, knocking many minutes off missiles' flight-times.

MAD worked in the cold war because the nuclear red-button pushers on each side valued their own lives and the lives of, at least, their own power structures.

MAD may not work with these insane radical Muslim ers simply because they are suicidal.

[101A]

MAD may not work with these insane radical Muslim ers simply because they are suicidal.

[cheguevara]

So what? Im sure Israel has already enough nukes not only to up the middle east, but europe too.

[Obstructed_View]

So what? Im sure Israel has already enough nukes not only to up the middle east, but europe too.

But now Israel can launch them wherever they choose even after Iran wipes Israel off the map. The prospect of having Mecca, Medina, Tehran and Damascus converted to glowing green glass might be enough deterrent for Iran. It's the only language they will understand.

[boutons_]

Why go all the way nuclear?

The US should sell a few of these:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/11/sprj.irq.moab/

... to Israel to drop on Damascus and Teheran, a few of them in a good pattern would probalby be just as destructive without the contamination and "inhumanity" of nuclear.

[cheguevara]

Why go all the way nuclear?

The US should sell a few of these:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/11/sprj.irq.moab/

... to Israel to drop on Damascus and Teheran, a few of them in a good pattern would probalby be just as destructive without the contamination and "inhumanity" of nuclear.

you obviously don't really know what a nuclear bomb really does....

[BIG IRISH]

I find it "interesting" and have taken the following
snip for the article from 2003.

IMO this is absolute proof as to what many invidiuals, both with military and those with no-military experience have said, and been laughed at.

I will let the snip speak for itself and my only little "pithy" comment will be
and I take very little pleasue in saying it.

Rummy must go- He is not and never was qualified to be the Sec of Defense
not this time and not the last time and IMO he was not simply following
the party line.

"The goal is to have the pressure be so great that Saddam Hussein cooperates," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told reporters. "Short of that -- an unwillingness to cooperate -- the goal is to have the capabilities of the coalition so clear and so obvious that there is an enormous disincentive for the Iraqi military to fight against the coalition."

P.S. It didn't work against SH! Why do people thing it will work against
IRAN?

You simply cannot Bomb people into giving up.

See Fire Bombing of Tokyo, by HST, with into by numerous Generals
Bombing of Hanoi, by RMN, with into by numerous Generals
Bombing of Dresden .......
Bombing with Nukes against Japans oops this did work, but
was it worth it? Still Debateable, after all these years

BTW I have reached the point where I don't think anything beyond
actually attacking Iran is going to stop their NW Program.

My only hope, France, Russia, China, the UN, and GOD.
and my $ would probably be better spent on the roll of the DICE
at the LUXOR in VEGAS

[Nbadan]

Israel is already believed to have that ability in the form of the Jericho-1 and Jericho-2 nuclear-capable ballistic missiles, which are buried so far underground they would survive a nuclear strike, he said.

Iran is still at least a decade from possessing enough enriched uranium to arm a nuclear weapon. Besides, it's kind of hypocritical for Israel to decry Iran for hiding it's nuclear program in violation of UN resolutions since Israel has been hiding it's own nuclear program for decades from the UN.

[whottt]

Ahh the President of Iran is an insane er who typifies the threat of Militant Islam...threat of nukes will not stop him....the only thing that will stop him is death.

[Nbadan]

Ahh the President of Iran is an insane er who typifies the threat of Militant Islam...threat of nukes will not stop him....the only thing that will stop him is death.

Because you know him personally, right?

[BIG IRISH]

Ahh the President of Iran is an insane er who typifies the threat of Militant Islam...threat of nukes will not stop him....the only thing that will stop him is death.

Because you know him personally, right?

Dan Can I try putting this a different way.

From what I have seen on TV, read,and obtained off the net, it appears that the President of Iran is not a logical man and what little I understand of His faith and the instructions he has obtained from his spiritual advisors, along with his absolute hatred of the Jews IMO Nothing short of ramming a missle with a teeny, tiny nuke up his ass, in the middle of the night, will stop him from trying to obtain the BIG Enchalada.

[whottt]

Because you know him personally, right?

LMAO...Because you know Bush personally, right? You gotta be ing kidding me...

Is it that you just don't pay attention to anything that isn't anti-American?

You'd vote for that Nihilistic if he was running against Bush wouldn't you?

I hope you are a muslim, because if you aren't, you are more ed in the head than the terrorists...

[velik_m]

Iranian president is a wacko.

[Nbadan]

LMAO...Because you know Bush personally, right? You gotta be ing kidding me...

Is it that you just don't pay attention to anything that isn't anti-American?

You'd vote for that Nihilistic if he was running against Bush wouldn't you?

I hope you are a muslim, because if you aren't, you are more ed in the head than the terrorists...

I think I've read enough about Dubya to know what he's about, in fact, I'm willing to bet I know more about him than anyone else in this forum, so my question to you is, how much do you really know about the Iranian President? I mean, you must have some basis for claiming that he is suicidal, right? Otherwise, you were just talking out of your ass again?

[Nbadan]

From what I have seen on TV, read,and obtained off the net, it appears that the President of Iran is not a logical man and what little I understand of His faith and the instructions he has obtained from his spiritual advisors, along with his absolute hatred of the Jews IMO Nothing short of ramming a missle with a teeny, tiny nuke up his ass, in the middle of the night, will stop him from trying to obtain the BIG Enchalada.

All I can say is you need to expose yourself to other resources. Read the international press, don't trust just the American M$M which obediently played its part in pimping the Iraq fiasco in 02. Your too smart to be conned again

[whottt]

I think I've read enough about Dubya to know what he's about, in fact, I'm willing to bet I know more about him than anyone else in this forum, so my question to you is, how much do you really know about the Iranian President? I mean, you must have some basis for claiming that he is suicidal, right? Otherwise, you were just talking out of your ass again?

Um...you gotta be ing kidding me...he's a zealot and an extreme religious fascist.

[Nbadan]

Um...you gotta be ing kidding me...he's a zealot and an extreme religious fascist.

based on what? Did he invade Poland?

[sabar]

All I can say is you need to expose yourself to other resources. Read the international press, don't trust just the American M$M which obediently played its part in pimping the Iraq fiasco in 02. Your too smart to be conned again

The media isn't the best source, but I would assume the spoken words from the actual man in question are.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.israel/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middl...iran_12-9.html

Is he some insane man bent on mass murder? Maybe, maybe not. All you can really say is that he has his views, most which revolve around the fate of Isreal. Who knows what he meant when he said he wanted to remove Isreal from history. He's called for a state of Isreal to be made in Europe or North America. So when he wants to "wipe Isreal from the history books" does he want to nuke them or just move them?

Who knows. Take note that the media has gone a bit wild with his quotes. He never directly called for the destruction of Isreal, but to remove it from the history books. Of course the latter can imply the first, but only he knows what he meant by it.

[whottt]

It's not just Isarael...the guy is definitely an Islamic fascist...just go read some of his speeches...forget about Israel.

[boutons_]

"you obviously don't really know what a nuclear bomb really does...."

Evidence-free, faith-based statement.

How about this "doing"? : US or Israel dropping a nuclear bomb on Damascus or Teheran with 100s of 1000s of civilian casualties would certainly radicalize 100s of 1000s more Muslims around the world into mouth-foaming, suicidal terrorists. Blatant overkill, counter-productive. The kind of up the Repugs are good at. Perhaps crazy head's parting shot as King-behind-dubya's-fool will be to force a nuke to be dropped on the ME, in same the way he forced the US into Iraq.

MOABing, or using more appropriate, specific munitions, on Syrian and Iranian military and nuclear sites, or on legislative buildings, or ruling class residences, even with nearby civilians populations, could be spun as purely military action action against threats, rather than gratuitous murder of civilians.

[Obstructed_View]

I think I've read enough about Dubya to know what he's about, in fact, I'm willing to bet I know more about him than anyone else in this forum...

[jochhejaam]

Why go all the way nuclear?

The US should sell a few of these:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/11/sprj.irq.moab/

... to Israel to drop on Damascus and Teheran, a few of them in a good pattern would probalby be just as destructive without the contamination and "inhumanity" of nuclear.

It would take 1,450 MOAB's to equal the yield of the Nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Today's nuclear weapons far exceed the yield of those dropped on Japan.


Compared to a nuclear bomb, the MOAB produces a tiny explosion. The smallest known nuclear bomb -- the Davy Crockett fission bomb -- has a 10-ton yield. The difference is that a nuclear bomb that small weighs less than 100 pounds (45 kg) and produces significant amounts of lethal radiation when it detonates. For comparison, the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima had a yield of 14,500 tons of TNT and weighed only 10,000 pounds (4,500 kg) -- half the weight of the MOAB. See How Nuclear Bombs Work for details.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/moab1.htm

By around 1985, the total destructive power of nuclear weapons ac ulated by the five nuclear powers was estimated at 22,000 megatons (22 billion tons; TNT equivalent). This is equal to 1,470,000 bombs of the type dropped on Hiroshima. Based on simple calculations, this volume is enough to kill about 200 billion people, or the present population of the planet more than 35 times over.

http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/Pea...uclear4_1.html