First of a three article collaboration with Hoopworld's Bill Ingram about our Spurs

[nbascribe]

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_18878.shtml

I think we're going to be better than some experts think. Bill things some things may have hurt this team. Should be good banter.

Of course my homerisms could be showing for our boys....

[ducks]

Spurs: Too Weak in the Middle?
By Bill Ingram with Gregory Moore
Oct 9, 2006, 12:16


Many NBA pundits feel that the San Antonio Spurs have finally taken a step down. After six straight seasons of championship-caliber basketball the team traded away their starting center and then lost the man they had pegged to replace him on a full-time basis. Rasho’s departure was not a huge loss, but Nazr Mohammed’s defection to Detroit may have been the move that set the Spurs back a step. Sure, they signed Jackie Butler, but can a third-string New York Knick evolve into a Western Conference starter soon enough to keep the Spurs ahead of the curve? HOOPSWORLD’s Bill Ingram and the San Antonio Informer’s Gregory Moore break it down:

GM: When it came to Rasho Nesterovic and the Spurs, I always thought that he was the best choice they could have gotten the year that they signed him as a free agent. The biggest problem with Rasho's game is that he did not play with any fire. As a center, he was not very 'explosive' in defense and offensively he wasn't really a viable option. Maybe that was the fault of him filling the shoes of David Robinson but that's the price you pay sometimes when you follow a player who was the franchise in the center position.

BI: Greg makes a good point about filling The Admiral’s shoes, but I think a bigger issue was that Rasho’s game is basically identical to Tim Duncan’s on the offensive end. He likes to operate in the same space, taking mid-range jumpers and playing the middle of the paint rather than the back-to-the-basket style of a traditional NBA center. We saw that he was quite effective when Duncan was out with injuries – less so when he was playing alongside Tim. Rasho was not asked to do very much in the Spurs’ offensive set, and he’s one of those players who needs a few touches to get himself involved in the game. Gregg Popovich repeatedly said that Rasho was doing what was asked of him during the 2004-05 season. When his playing time became sporadic in the 2005-06 season I think Rasho just gave up. Now that he’s in a system that will look for him to do more, and with an outstanding floor leader in TJ Ford, Rasho will probably have a career year for the Raptors.

GM: When the Spurs obtained Nazr Muhammad two seasons ago from the New York Knicks, many thought that he was going to be a bust. Surprisingly Nazr did exceptionally well during the 2005 season and helped the Spurs win their second NBA le. So last season should have been his break out season, right? Wrong. It was probably the worst season of his six-year career. Muhammad didn't play like the player from the championship season. He didn't rebound exceptionally well. He played extremely soft in the middle on defense; so much so that he lost the starting position to Rasho.

When it came to the playoff run, Nazr failed to be effective against the Dallas Mavericks in the second round but that was endemic to how he played the whole season. Despite his grumblings of not being used effectively, the Spurs had to find an answer and they let Muhammad go even though he received an equal offer from the team that he has in Detroit now.

BI: We were all pleasantly surprised by Nazr’s production when he arrived in San Antonio. In his first full season as a Spur he averaged close to 10 points, eight rebounds, and better than a block per game, which is impressive given that he was not even the fifth option on the team in terms of offense. Most of his points came on put-backs and hustle plays that were not actually drawn up for him. He was making something out of nothing. Unlike Greg, I see his shortcomings in 2005-06 as more a part of his lack of consistent playing time than anything else. Nazr averaged 25.1 minutes per game the previous season, making his averages even more impressive. There are plenty of NBA centers who record 30 plus minutes per game who don’t give their teams a nightly double-double threat.

Nazr appeared in only eight playoff games for the Spurs, and I would say the reason he wasn’t a factor in the Dallas series had as much to do with his lack of playing time as anything else. Popovich decided to go small against Dallas and play the run-and-gun game. It’s easy to second-guess that decision in retrospect, but it does seem that the Spurs decided to play Avery Johnson’s game instead of forcing the Mavs to play Popovich’s. Today’s NBA lends itself to a more up-tempo style of play and punishes teams for playing too much defense, so Pop’s decision made a degree of sense. But at the end of the day the reason Nazr left for Detroit was because they guaranteed that he would play and they are as much a contender as the Spurs. The Pistons found themselves another Ben Wallace type who didn’t cost nearly as much as Ben would have. All Nazr has to do is grow his hair out and make the most of his opportunity.

GM: With the Spurs acquiring Jackie Butler, the team may have found a center that is hungry enough to want to play the position in a scheme that is very defense-oriented. I was highly impressed with him while he played for the Knicks. What this team has is just raw talent ready to be channeled in the right direction. Can Butler be a starter for this team? Not off the bat. That job will most likely go to Francisco Elson. But Butler can definitely benefit from being versatile enough to play with not only Tim Duncan but also Matt Bonner or Robert Horry. He can become a very good player in this system but he will have to be ready to work and learn from his veterans on the floor.

BI: I agree Butler has potential, but the Spurs are not a team that can afford to wait too long for him to realize it. This is a team that is built to win now – they are in the middle of a peak in their franchise’s development. They are considered to be a championship team every season, and Butler doesn’t exactly fit that mold. If the Spurs were rebuilding, I’d say Butler is exactly the kind of player they should gamble on, but that’s not where this franchise is.

As for Francisco Elson, it seems like wishful thinking to say that he’s ready to be the starter for the Spurs. More prepared than Butler, sure, but still not what a championship team needs in the middle. Elson gave the Nuggets 4.9 points and 4.7 rebounds in 72 games last season. It’s clear he’ll get more playing time in San Antonio, but will he immediately become a force in the paint? What if Duncan gets hurt? Can he hold down the fort? I don’t think so. Duncan’s injury status and Robert Horry’s age seem to be the biggest factors facing the Spurs as they try to get back to the NBA Finals this season. I’m not sure it’s a realistic expectation with the platoon of sub-par players who will be logging minutes at the five.

NEXT UP: Tony Parker shot an incredible 55% from the field last year in what was easily his best season as a pro. How effective will he be this season, given that teams will be looking to stop his penetration? On the other side of the backcourt, does Manu need to evolve in order to be the force the Spurs need him to be this season? Is his frenetic style of play actually hurting the team? The answers to these questions coming soon in our next edition of The Spurs Report!

Got a comment for Gregory Moore? He can be reached at: [email protected].


© Copyright 2005 by HOOPSWORLD.com, a Basketball News Services Exclusive

[FromWayDowntown]

The argument begins from the false premise that the Spurs had pegged Nazr to replace Rasho. I don't think the Spurs had any interest in bringing back either Rasho or Nazr and I think those decisions had been made long before the free agency period began. I'm still at a loss to figure out how the loss of someone who didn't do anything during the playoffs can be a huge step back; it's a bit like saying that the Spurs took a huge step back in 2003-04 when they let Steve Smith go to New Orleans.

[angel_luv]

BI: Greg makes a good point about filling The Admiral’s shoes, but I think a bigger issue was that Rasho’s game is basically identical to Tim Duncan’s on the offensive end. He likes to operate in the same space, taking mid-range jumpers and playing the middle of the paint rather than the back-to-the-basket style of a traditional NBA center. We saw that he was quite effective when Duncan was out with injuries – less so when he was playing alongside Tim. Rasho was not asked to do very much in the Spurs’ offensive set, and he’s one of those players who needs a few touches to get himself involved in the game. Gregg Popovich repeatedly said that Rasho was doing what was asked of him during the 2004-05 season. When his playing time became sporadic in the 2005-06 season I think Rasho just gave up. Now that he’s in a system that will look for him to do more, and with an outstanding floor leader in TJ Ford, Rasho will probably have a career year for the Raptors.

Overall, I agree with Bill's take on this. Well said.

[Solid D]

Gregory, I'm surprised at you with your assessment of Rasho's offensive game...that it is "basically identical" to Tim Duncan's offensive game.(?) I agree that Rasho and Tim liked to work in similar areas, however, Tim is probably the best post player the Spurs have had...ever, excepting perhaps A-Train. Yes, he likes to get out on the floor and work in space and he does so very well, but Tim frequently does this and then ends up, half the time, turning his back and deftly uses his stellar post moves to score.

What? No Oberto? He may have a role worth mentioning this year.

[FromWayDowntown]

BI: Nazr appeared in only eight playoff games for the Spurs, and I would say the reason he wasn’t a factor in the Dallas series had as much to do with his lack of playing time as anything else. Popovich decided to go small against Dallas and play the run-and-gun game.

Popovich decided to go small when his team got run out of the gym in Game 2 and in the first half of Game 3. Nazr got time during each of those efforts and immediately showed that he couldn't play at the pace that the Mavericks were dictating. It was equally clear that the Spurs weren't able to dictate pace, making their bigs look like glaciers drifting into the South Pacific -- they weren't going to last very long. This is a ridiculous point to me.

It’s easy to second-guess that decision in retrospect, but it does seem that the Spurs decided to play Avery Johnson’s game instead of forcing the Mavs to play Popovich’s. Today’s NBA lends itself to a more up-tempo style of play and punishes teams for playing too much defense, so Pop’s decision made a degree of sense.

I'm convinced that Pop made the only decision that gave his team a chance to win that series. Pop's decision was the only sensible decision to be made.

But at the end of the day the reason Nazr left for Detroit was because they guaranteed that he would play and they are as much a contender as the Spurs. The Pistons found themselves another Ben Wallace type who didn’t cost nearly as much as Ben would have. All Nazr has to do is grow his hair out and make the most of his opportunity.

Nazr as a Ben Wallace type?

[boutons_]

"I'm still at a loss to figure out how the loss of someone who didn't do anything during the playoffs can be a huge step back;"

exactly. Logical fallacies and prejudice like this are fairly typical from sports "journalists".

[nbascribe]

Gregory, I'm surprised at you with your assessment of Rasho's offensive game...that it is "basically identical" to Tim Duncan's offensive game.(?) I agree that Rasho and Tim liked to work in similar areas, however, Tim is probably the best post player the Spurs have had...ever, excepting perhaps A-Train. Yes, he likes to get out on the floor and work in space and he does so very well, but Tim frequently does this and then ends up, half the time, turning his back and deftly uses his stellar post moves to score.

What? No Oberto? He may have a role worth mentioning this year.

Solid D, I didn't say the quote you put to me. Bill made that assessment.

I didn't put Oberto into my center comparison because he's not a center; he's a forward.

[nbascribe]

If Nazr gets ten boards on a consistent basis in Detroit...I'll be shocked.

Heck Rashweed may go postal on him if he doesn't!! lol

[easjer]

Interesting read, but the arguments themselves have inherent fallacies, I think, as FWD has ably pointed out.

[FromWayDowntown]

If Nazr gets ten boards on a consistent basis in Detroit...I'll be shocked.

Heck Rashweed may go postal on him if he doesn't!! lol

Even if he got 10 boards a night in Detroit, that wouldn't make him a Ben Wallace type. What makes Ben Wallace such a fantastic defender is his athleticism and ability to competently guard most spots on the floor, his ability to defend the rim as an on-the-ball defender and as a rotating helper, as well as his ability to rebound. Nazr would struggle to defend a chair in the middle of the lane in a one-on-one situation; the first time someone runs a 1-5 pick and roll at the Pistons and Nazr is two steps slow on his show, or when the Pistons can't comfortably switch any pick-and-roll play involving the center, it will be quite evident that he's not a Ben Wallace type.

[nbascribe]

It's not complete gang.

This is the first article of three that was written on the team.

So don't jump to any big conclusions. We had to break things up or else the piece would have been a "War and Peace" type thing. Not good for a sports website.

I think the second installment is going to be good too. Guard play and expectations from Tony, Manu, etc.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's not complete gang.

This is the first article of three that was written on the team.

So don't jump to any big conclusions. We had to break things up or else the piece would have been a "War and Peace" type thing. Not good for a sports website.

I think the second installment is going to be good too. Guard play and expectations from Tony, Manu, etc.

That may be, but unless Bill's intending to come back and say that he was joking about his points in this installment, I'm not sure he has much credibility(at least with me) on any of the points he makes. Most of his assertions in this piece are laughable to me -- it seems as if he hasn't watched the Spurs since 2005.

[Solid D]

Solid D, I didn't say the quote you put to me. Bill made that assessment.

I didn't put Oberto into my center comparison because he's not a center; he's a forward.

Oops, I see that now, G-Moore. I apologize profusely for that. I guess that was why I was surprised, it didn't sound like something that would come out' your mouth.

When Oberto is out there, Timmy is the 5...and Oberto PF, or at least that's the way it's gone so far this preseason. 4s and 5s are fairly interchangeable for the Spurs. Oberto is most def' a 4 unless the Spurs go small, and he gives Tim a breather... then he plays the 5.

[nbascribe]

Even if he got 10 boards a night in Detroit, that wouldn't make him a Ben Wallace type. What makes Ben Wallace such a fantastic defender is his athleticism and ability to competently guard most spots on the floor, his ability to defend the rim as an on-the-ball defender and as a rotating helper, as well as his ability to rebound. Nazr would struggle to defend a chair in the middle of the lane in a one-on-one situation; the first time someone runs a 1-5 pick and roll at the Pistons and Nazr is two steps slow on his show, or when the Pistons can't comfortably switch any pick-and-roll play involving the center, it will be quite evident that he's not a Ben Wallace type.

I think what they want is just someone who can rebound. Nobody is going to be able to replace what Wallace could do for that team. It's almost like my Rasho reference to Big Dave.....sometimes the replacement just isn't the same thing.

Nazr needs to find that drive to play and stop being complacent. He had such a dramatic fall off from two seasons ago when he got here last season.

It's 95% mental by the time you're a pro but that 5% athleticism and talent still takes 100% effort to continue to be a top player in the league. Nazr is like third tier right now.

[nbascribe]

That may be, but unless Bill's intending to come back and say that he was joking about his points in this installment, I'm not sure he has much credibility(at least with me) on any of the points he makes. Most of his assertions in this piece are laughable to me -- it seems as if he hasn't watched the Spurs since 2005.

FWD Bill has seen plenty of Spurs games. The reason why I'm coming on board is to actually relieve him of some pressure. He was covering three teams last season and that was with help.

He's not going to be a homer on the Spurs (that's my job!!).

Plus you gotta realize we were focusing more on the center spot and acquisitions in the off season, not a current roster player.

The assertions that we got nothing out of the five spot were very accurate. That was a weak position for this team last year.

Solid D, I think you'll see more guys playing their 'natural' positions this season. With Butler and Elson, the Spurs can swap centers. If Tim goes to the five spot, I'd look more for Bonner and Williams THEN Oberto unless Tim is out of the mix.

I think it's important that the team compliment Tim at the big positions as much as possible and if you have a guy who can play a traditional center role and let Tim work his usual game, things are just that much better for the wing players and spacing on the floor.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think what they want is just someone who can rebound. Nobody is going to be able to replace what Wallace could do for that team.

That may be so -- my point was to respond to Mr. Ingram's assertion that Nazr is a "Ben Wallace type." I think that characterization is laughable.

Nazr might prove to be useful player for the Pistons, who seem likely to push pace a bit more and worry less about locking teams down for 48 minutes, but he'll never be a Ben Wallace type.

[FromWayDowntown]

FWD Bill has seen plenty of Spurs games. The reason why I'm coming on board is to actually relieve him of some pressure. He was covering three teams last season and that was with help.

He's not going to be a homer on the Spurs (that's my job!!).

I'm not criticizing him for not being a Spurs homer. I'm criticizing him for apparently not having a clue in assessing the Spurs' situation.

Plus you gotta realize we were focusing more on the center spot and acquisitions in the off season, not a current roster player.

I'm absolutely sure I don't know what this means. It seems like the point of the column is to debate whether the Spurs are better or worse off for having lost Rasho and Nazr and replaced them with Elson and Butler -- which would be a discussion about both acquisitions in the off season and the current player roster. That notwithstanding, the argument that keeping either Nazr or Rasho was ever a point of emphasis for the Spurs in the off-season is completely incorrect. And the notion that the Spurs are worse off for having gotten rid of both of those guys is a curious one to me, particularly in light of what went on in the 2006 playoffs, when neither contributed much of anything.

The assertions that we got nothing out of the five spot were very accurate. That was a weak position for this team last year.

Sure it was. If it was a weak position last year though and the Spurs got nothing out of it, how on Earth can they have taken a step backwards by getting rid of two guys who did nothing? Are Elson, Oberto, and Butler going to do less than nothing? For crissakes, if one of those guys can play even 10 minutes a night in a playoff series against a quality opponent, the Spurs are leagues better off than they were last year.

[nbascribe]

FWD....the question was asked did the loss of Rasho and Nazr hurt the Spurs; not that it did.

We're agreeing on a lot of things, you and me.

The bottom line from my point of the article was that I think that the Spurs made an upgrade with Butler and Elson. Bill isn't putting much stock into a rookie coming off the bench last year being a capable player for a 'championship caliber' team this season and that a bench player from Denver may not be much better than Rasho.

It's the old "inside looking out"/"outside looking in" debate structure...I'm on the inside and he's on the outside....lol

[SequSpur]

The Spurs have no Center to date. Just an FYI.

[ploto]

I think that for the regular season, the Spurs from the perspective of the non- Duncan center position - by itself- did take a step back.

People say that Oberto did not get a chance last year- but if Nazr and Rasho were so awful, then why didn't he? You have to admit that no matter what the reasons- rookie, adjustment,...- that Oberto did not show enough last season to move above the #5 big man spot on the Spurs. Moving him to a starter is by most measures at least initially seen as a step back from those who started and played AHEAD of him even in their worst season with the team. I don't think that most went into the off-season with the idea that the Spurs best chances were to promote Oberto to starter.

As for the article, people have pointed out some incorrect info already.

I will have to disagree with one statement- I would not say that Rasho gave up. He still worked as hard as always and had the same team-first at ude he always did. I think that he knew- as did most who watched the Spurs this season- that in a play-off series with Dallas that he would hardly see the floor. It may not be fun or enjoyable, but he knew. Now, if the Spurs had gotten to Miami and faced Shaq, it would have been a different story. I think that for him it really came down to the feeling that the Spurs had little use for him. He said himself after the trade that when the team does not see that you can fill a role for them, they do not play you and they trade you. The West changed and the role for Rasho diminished.

I think that this article left out what I consider the MAIN factor with regards to the Spurs center position- Tim Duncan. Success depends on Duncan playing center ALOT - with Oberto and Horry at PF. I really don't expect to see Elson on the floor in the play-offs anymore than Nazr and Rasho. It's not like he can guard Dirk either.

[Supergirl]

The Pistons found themselves another Ben Wallace type who didn’t cost nearly as much as Ben would have. All Nazr has to do is grow his hair out and make the most of his opportunity.

it was at this point that I stopped taking anything these guys had to say seriously.

Nazr even in the same league as Ben Wallace? What's that they're smoking again? Com on. Ben Wallace is a good defender, good rebounder, and has good hands. NAzr is a crummy defender, but provides decent offense and rebounding, provided he doesn't have to touch the ball too much, because then he'll turn it over.

I did like the point about Rasho liking to play from the same spots as Duncan, and therefore not always meshing well with TD on the floor.

All of them miss the fundamental point - Rasho and Nazr are slow and less athletic, therefore useless against the style of game the NBA is encouraging, against teams like PHoenix and Dallas, Detroit under Flip. Elson, Oberto, Bonner, and Butler are all more athletic and fast than Rasho and Nazr, so we're already in better shape. Who plays and who gets the starting spot will depend on injuries and who fits in with the rest of the team. At this point I'm betting on Oberto and Elson, but Butler could take over by midseason. Bonner will play an Horry-like role and come in off the bench to stretch the defense, which should help Horry be fresher if nothing else.

[ploto]

Elson, Oberto, Bonner, and Butler are all more athletic and fast than Rasho and Nazr, so we're already in better shape.

I have never seen the words Oberto and athletic used together-- nor Butler and fast.

[diego]

I have never seen the words Oberto and athletic used together-- nor Butler and fast.

and that right there tells you how slow rasho is, although nazr does have more of an argument.

i think if nazr had rasho's brain or rasho nazr's body (minus the limited coordination!) then we'd be fine, but both couldnt play at the same time and that god damn dallas small ball killed us. In that sense I would have preferred Pop try to impose instead of adapt, but i think we all agree we couldnt adapt because we didnt have the players. Horry didnt bring us anything last year, and Oberto did ok but fouled himself out of playing time and the other team to the line. Im an argie homer and i think oberto will be much improved his second season and it looks like pop is giving him a chance so who knows, we always have the chance at a midseason trade

Of course on paper nazr and rasho are better more accomplished players than oberto, elson and butler. But that doesnt mean they cant make more valuable contributions to the team. and we got bonner and a nice expiring contract for rasho, more shooters is never a bad thing on this team!

[samikeyp]

You're still 10X better, Greg. Good job.

P.S. Watch your back with that guy.