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  1. #1
    Believe.
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    (from Yahoo news AP report)

    NEW YORK - A controversial new study contends nearly 655,000 Iraqis have died because of the war, suggesting a far higher death toll than other estimates.

    The timing of the survey's release, just a few weeks before the U.S. congressional elections, led one expert to call it "politics."

    In the new study, researchers attempt to calculate how many more Iraqis have died since March 2003 than one would expect without the war. Their conclusion, based on interviews of households and not a body count, is that about 600,000 died from violence, mostly gunfire. They also found a small increase in deaths from other causes like heart disease and cancer.

    "Deaths are occurring in Iraq now at a rate more than three times that from before the invasion of March 2003," Dr. Gilbert Burnham, lead author of the study, said in a statement.

    The study by Burnham, of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, and others is to be published Thursday on the Web site of The Lancet, a medical journal.

    An accurate count of Iraqi deaths has been difficult to obtain, but one respected group puts its rough estimate at closer to 50,000. And at least one expert was skeptical of the new findings.

    "They're almost certainly way too high," said Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic & International Studies in Washington. He criticized the way the estimate was derived and noted that the results were released shortly before the Nov. 7 election.

    "This is not analysis, this is politics," Cordesman said.

    The work updates an earlier Johns Hopkins study — that one was released just before the November 2004 presidential election. At the time, the lead researcher, Les Roberts of Hopkins, said the timing was deliberate. Many of the same researchers were involved in the latest estimate.

    Speaking of the new study, Burnham said the estimate was much higher than others because it was derived from a house-to-house survey rather than approaches that depend on body counts or media reports.

    A private group called Iraqi Body Count, for example, says it has recorded about 44,000 to 49,000 civilian Iraqi deaths. But it notes that those totals are based on media reports, which it says probably overlook "many if not most civilian casualties."

    For Burnham's study, researchers gathered data from a sample of 1,849 Iraqi households with a total of 12,801 residents from late May to early July. That sample was used to extrapolate the total figure. The estimate deals with deaths up to July.

    The survey participants attributed about 31 percent of violent deaths to coalition forces.

    Accurate death tolls have been difficult to obtain ever since the Iraq conflict began in March 2003. When top Iraqi political officials cite death numbers, they often refuse to say where the numbers came from.

    The Health Ministry, which tallies civilian deaths, relies on reports from government hospitals and morgues. The Interior Ministry compiles its figures from police stations, while the Defense Ministry reports deaths only among army soldiers and insurgents killed in combat.

    The United Nations keeps its own count, based largely on reports from the Baghdad morgue and the Health Ministry.

    The major funder of the new study was the Massachusetts Ins ute of Technology.
    http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/im...3606694919.pdf <--------actual study is a 243kb, 8-page pdf file if you want to read it yourself.

    I skimmed the study. Seems more like science than politics, with some good statistical methods employed.

    I am sure that there will be those that say this number is far too high, based on other, non-scientific estimates, the authors actually got a good sample by interviewing about 12,000 people.

    Even if the study is off by 50%, that still means that our bungling of the post-war occupation has cost 300,000+ Iraqis their lives.

  2. #2
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    Who's ahead now in killing the largest number of Iraqis, dubya or Saddam?

    Even with Saddam's total being boosted by 375,000 Iraqis killed when Saddam attacked Iran and 25,000 when Saddam invaded Kuwait, it looks like dubya is well ahead. Not very fair for Saddam that he's not an active player anymore.

    "Staying the course" a few more years will certainly give dubya the World Champhionship of Murderer of Civilians.

    What's great about dubya leaving office in 2009 is that he will still be able to notch up dead Iraqis while spending the rest of his life doing nothing constructive.

    Saddam achieved as much in attacking Iran and Kuwait as dubya has achieved in invading Iraq: absolute ing zero.

    How about head-to-head in military incompetence?
    Pretty much a close race. Well, actually, dubya is ahead in incompetence since Saddam did mount succesful coup and control the Iraqi government for nearly 25 years, while dubya was snorting coke, alcholhic, and going bankrupt. dubya has never really done anything on his own "abilities".

    And the sheeple/rabble feel dubya's pain when touchy-feely-only-for-press-releases dubya "feels bad" about few slaughtered Amish school kids?

    G M A F B

    you're doing a heckuva job, dubya


  3. #3
    Roll The Dice Hook Dem's Avatar
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    I'd say that one dead Boutons would even the scales!

  4. #4
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
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    count down to yonivore freedom is not free, democracy makes sacrafice ok, the world is a better place without sadaam even if iraq isnt...... 10, 9, 8, 7, 6....

  5. #5
    Believe. NASCARdad's Avatar
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    WTF!?!? Would you rather it be Americans!!?? Sorry, but I say better them than us.

  6. #6
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    That number is a complete load of crap. Yes, a lot of Iraqis have died. And their deaths are probably in vain since the war in Iraq does little or nothing to make America more secure, and Iraq has zero chance of becoming a stable democracy anytime in the near-to-medium future. But 655,000? That's over 500 a day, every day, since the war began. It's a BS number meant to fool gullible minds three weeks before an election.

    Chop down that number by a factor of ten and we're closer to reality.

  7. #7
    Believe. NASCARdad's Avatar
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    I don't care if the figure is a million. People die in WAR.

  8. #8
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Wonder why so many are dead in Iraq? Could it be their religious
    leaders? Naw, Muslims are peace loving and don't believe in that
    sort of thing. The Muslim leaders on have their militias because it
    is the thing to do and in vogue now days.

  9. #9
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    And these are just the deaths we KNOW of! What about the many families who were completely wiped out with all witnesses? There would have to be countless deaths that cannot be accounted for in this interview-based study!

    My guess is that the actual death toll is closer to 65 million.

  10. #10
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    That figure does seem high but there is no way an accurate count be done but either way the count is only going to get higher.

  11. #11
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    That number is a complete load of crap. Yes, a lot of Iraqis have died. And their deaths are probably in vain since the war in Iraq does little or nothing to make America more secure, and Iraq has zero chance of becoming a stable democracy anytime in the near-to-medium future. But 655,000? That's over 500 a day, every day, since the war began. It's a BS number meant to fool gullible minds three weeks before an election.

    Chop down that number by a factor of ten and we're closer to reality.
    ...and you got that 1/10th number to multiply this figure by exactly how?

  12. #12
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    yes, it seems way too high, but 60K is way too low since Iraqis been dying a 3-4K/month since July. 40 - 50K year.

    dubya, just keep staying that ing course. We all love ya, big guy!

  13. #13
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    WTF!?!? Would you rather it be Americans!!?? Sorry, but I say better them than us.
    "better them than us".

    This is one of the single most morally repugnant things I have ever seen anybody say in any forum.

    It is the same moral reasoning that led the guards at concentration camps to stuff corpses into ovens. "Better a stinking jew than us..."

    You are a traitor to everything that this country stands for, if you don't like living up to high moral standards, go live in North Korea where you can join others of the same moral caliber.

    Perhaps you can find a place on the firing squads.

  14. #14
    Believe. NASCARdad's Avatar
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    "better them than us".

    This is one of the single most morally repugnant things I have ever seen anybody say in any forum.

    It is the same moral reasoning that led the guards at concentration camps to stuff corpses into ovens. "Better a stinking jew than us..."

    You are a traitor to everything that this country stands for, if you don't like living up to high moral standards, go live in North Korea where you can join others of the same moral caliber.

    Perhaps you can find a place on the firing squads.
    I can say the same to you. If you don't like what our president is doing for OUR country then GTF out!! Your only aiding the enemy with your dove talk. We are at WAR or haven't you figured that out yet.

  15. #15
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Moral repugnance aside, no one says that it *should* have been Americans anyways.

    That is completely lying about what people who oppose the war believe.

    There is a vast chasm between being appalled at the slaughter and wishing that slaughter on Americans, and you damn well know it.

  16. #16
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Xray and Nascar provide the perfect example of how republicans think. It's just more discovery from the autopsy of their character.

  17. #17
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I can say the same to you. If you don't like what our president is doing for OUR country then GTF out!! Your only aiding the enemy with your dove talk. We are at WAR or haven't you figured that out yet.
    You can say the same, but the President would be just as appalled at what you just said too.

    I really can't stand idiots who mindlessly equate support for incompetant policies with patriotism.

    If the president started ordering people off the tops of buildings, and I thought that was stupid, would that make me unpatriotic?

    Nope.

  18. #18
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    I think NASCARnutless is really mouse!

    ... having fun portraying the all the worst in the typical NASCAR mentality.

    southern, rural, ignorant, racist, chauvinist, intolerant, narrow-minded, close-minded, stupefyingly stupid, mean, nasty, "religious", ie, red-dirt Repugs!

  19. #19
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    NASCARdad is a troll. Pay no mind.

  20. #20
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    NASCARdad is a troll. Pay no mind.
    D'oh!! Thanks for pointing that out.
    I forget to account for the occasional thing that is said as satire.

    My apologies for going off on something silly.

  21. #21
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Meh, I've gotten duped by more obvious ones myself...

  22. #22
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    From what I've read in here many, myself included, could be described as "trolls".
    It's just a forum and I don't think the gov't will take any of our advice.

  23. #23
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Personally:

    The actual figure is MUCH higher than what the administration would tell us. Even his supporters would admit that, I think.

    The thing to remember for all is that if we were really there to help, then we should seriously weigh leaving to staying.

    Those who argue against "cut and run" would use the same logic that would have us keep buying Enron stock.

    At some point, you have to realize you made a mistake and that what you are doing is making things worse.

    I think the recent Baker commission report is a good start at figuring out where to go from here.

  24. #24
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    I don't think we can leave Iraq in the state it is now. We simply cannot leave. Call it "cut and run" but I say we must finish the job. Right or wrong for going in in the first place, it would be wrong to leave now.

  25. #25
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    ...and you got that 1/10th number to multiply this figure by exactly how?
    See boutons' post. 3000-4000 a month over 3.5 years would amount to 150,000 or so. But the insurgency has not been this intense all 3 1/2 years.

    All you get is within an order of magnitude. Several hundred thousand is an order of magnitude too high.

    50,000 to 100,000 is still a lot of dead Iraqis for no good reason. There is no need for BS embellishment.

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