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The sad fact is:
Beno Udrih is better than any NBDL point guard.
Francisco Elson and Fabricio Oberto are our only big men.
James White is not even close to what Finley is even now.
and...
Bruce Bowen is easily our best option at the 3.
i think bowen is a good defender, but he's getting old and i'm not sure how much we can compensate for his lack of offense. he used to guard dirk well, but that changed a couple seasons ago. i'm wondering if a change at the small forward position will make things better. as bad as finley has played, i'm wondering if having finley on the floor with manu would be better. i think it's definitely worth a look considering that bowen really couldn't play much worse than finley coming off the bench. i don't think he's the only problem we have, but just wondering if age and his declining defense might be showing more and more.
The sad fact is:
Beno Udrih is better than any NBDL point guard.
Francisco Elson and Fabricio Oberto are our only big men.
James White is not even close to what Finley is even now.
and...
Bruce Bowen is easily our best option at the 3.
Agreed. He hasn't really slowed down much. He gets lit up here and there, but a lot of the problem is about other people not doing what they are supposed to do in the team defensive scheme.
I think more athleticism, youth off the bench at the swing spots, a real starting center, and a real backup PG are way more important than anything Bowen is doing or not doing.
Finley sucks by the way.
What is the reason of this thread?
It was tons of the same previously. Bowen old etc.
I don't think it's necessarily Bowen because our margin for error this season has been squeezed to zero. In the past we could get by missing free throws, 4th qtr turnovers and lack of scoring from Bowen. Now that we cannot just show up and play because these shortcomings have been magnified ten fold.
That stretch at the end of the 3rd qtr was a killer... up by 6 and 3 straight turnovers.. I am not going to even mention who was invloved with those 3..
I know Pop would never do it but he should consider moving barry into the starting lineup and bringing bowen off the bench. We need our most consistent players playing the majority of minutes and right now bones is playing his best basketball since coming to SA. Pop needs to stop trying to stroke finley's aging waner and go with the rotation of players that is producing. Finley blows and Pop keeps putting him ahead of Bones@?!$ (Cf: Most recent chi-town loss)
The problem is not Bruce, is those who are behind him.
Our bigs sucks
The lack of scorers on the team magnifies Bruce's weakness. Finley was suppossed to provide the offense off the bench.
On offense it's the big 3 against the other team.
Barry can get 20 points on one night and then a goose-egg (like how I tied the name in there?) the next. If he's the Spurs most consistent wing player, the Spurs are in more trouble than they know. The bottom line is that neither Barry, Finley, or Bowen can be a consistent scoring option because all they do is shoot.
By contrast, a guy like Maggette has the ability to get to the hole and draw contact....so even if his shot isn't falling, he's getting to the free-throw line and putting up points.
If I had to choose between three shooters, I take the one that plays the best D.
A fact Pop should have known before he entered the Finley sweepstakes.
The answer to this question lies outside the organization.
Robert Horry sucks.
well i assume you mean our bigs other than TIMMAY! lol..but yeah i have to agree that bruce is still doing his job defensively...offensively though..i dont know why now he's trying to make some ginobili-like moves that are just not in his arsenal. He's also shooting crappy...I don't know if it's just a slump and he'll get over it but i hope if it is, it's over soon.
We haven't had real bigs for a month now. I would like to see this team get healthy and establish a solid rotation before I write them off.
Wing scoring would be nice, but I'm not sure if this team would be better with Magette. As is, we're already weak defensively, especially on the perimeter. I don't know if Maggette's scoring would mitigate the fact that he is a defensive sieve.
we will give you jason bart fart for free
why dont the spurs go after artest?
Brent Barry=Poor Defence.No way
Cause they donīt want problematics players
but everyone seems to be scoring on bowen much easier over the last couple seasons. he used to guard dirk...now they don't even put bowen on dirk.
problem with bowen is that teams leave him open cuz he's not an offensive threat.
i dunno, it would be quite a shakeup & i think it would really wake the team up if bowen was replaces by either by brett or finley.
He doesn't guard Dirk anymore because he's 6'7. He used to be forced to guard Dirk because none of the bigs could. Now that the Spurs supposedly have bigs that can guard Dirk, Bowen can spend most of his time on JHoward and other players closer to his size.
Last season, Bowen had an incredible season defensively. This year, not having any defense behind him in the form of bigs is hurting him. The Spurs defensive scheme is a team scheme. There's only so much one person can do if the others aren't rotating, contesting shots, etc.
Last edited by Kori Ellis; 01-18-2007 at 10:21 PM.
They need to trade for some youth. Bowen is a good enough stopgap for now (when he decides to show up). The fact that our 4 and 5 spots are playing soft now doesn't help one bit either (and yeah, I'm calling Tim out on this...).
Overall this has the look of a team waiting for the stretch run to make any concerted effort. Too many AARP members on this squad at this point. Time for a youth movement......
Bowen effectiveness has been greatly reduced in the last couple of years... seriously. I cringed when he puts the ball on the floor, despite the occasional basket.
Even today, he is still our best one on one perimeter defender. However, I hear the argument that the problem is that the five players must be in sync to play good D, which is true. But if team D is the most important factor, then individual D is less important (and therefore, Bowen's role on D less important). You can have the cake and eat it... you pick a factor and run with it.
Bowen limitations in offense were compensated in the past by big D efforts, taking high percentage shots, developing the corner three as a weapon, and producing a very small number of TOs (due to minimum touches). In the last couple of years, his role has expanded, and consequently his TOs have increased. I don't agree with this expanded role... Bowen should save his energy to play D only. I don't want him to get many touches in the offense unless it is a corner three. He is a horrid FT shooter and ball handler. If there is something I would like him to improve is rebounding... the Spurs have one of the worst, if not the worst (haven't check) SF rebounder in the entire league... this is way too much handicap.
Since the 2004 WCSF, it was clear that Bowen's lock down D in the playoffs has lost a step or two by the simple fact that he was completely ineffective in fighting through screens. This was greatly exposed by the Lakers in that series.
The real problem is... who the in the Spurs team takes his place? Finley? Barry? Beno? Williams?
This is sad but true... outside the big three, we have very little balance. This is a recurrent problem with most teams though... the Spurs have the luxury of having 3 of the top 30 players in the league, but the rest are really far behind.
The Spurs must bring additional talent to compete with Dallas and Phoenix. Otherwise we will need super-human efforts from Tim, Manu and Tony to even be compe ive. I don't think Pop will take any chances in bringing help, but I hope I am wrong for the sake of this team.
I don't like Pop's stuborness and his offensive philosophy, but he is a smart person.
I understood all that except the turnover part.
Bowen averages .80 t.o. per game., and producing a very small number of TOs (due to minimum touches). In the last couple of years, his role has expanded, and consequently his TOs have increased.
Last season .82
The season before .77
When you go all the way back to 03-04 when he handled the ball much less (by your take and the facts) he averaged 1.1.
Bowen has had a couple bad games (against Morrison and McGrady) and a couple times he ran up against players who couldn't miss (Michael Redd and most recently Kobe), but for the most part Bowen's defense has actually improved compared to last year. Last year he struggled a lot against the quicker and stronger players and had a poor defensive showing in the playoffs. This year he's done a good job in almost every situation.
The stats also back me up as far as Bowen's defense not falling off as some claim.
Per 100 possessions defensively, the Spurs give up 4.7 less points with Bowen on the court. Here is that stat over the last five seasons:
2006-07: -4.7
2005-06: +2.7
2004-05: -1.5
2003-04: -4.5
2002-03: -6.6
Before this season, you could definitely see a year-to-year decline in Bowen's D ... and the stats backed that up.
But this year, my eyes tell me he's doing a good job, the stats tell me he's doing a good job ... so there is no reason for me to believe that he has become a liability. It's actually the opposite - with as bad as this team is defensively, without Bowen on the court they are a complete disaster.
Bowen is the player that is keeping this team from becoming a horrible defensive squad.
Yeah, I've always been of the opinion that the less Bowen handles the ball, the better. But year by year, Bowen has drastically improved his ballhandling and finishing skills. These days he can actually bring the ball up the court. When he first got to San Antonio, he couldn't dribble twice without turning it over.
Huh? I don't understand what you are getting at.
The Spurs have been able to concentrate on playing team defense the last 4 or 5 seasons because Bowen has been able to take the other team's best perimeter player and defend them without having help sent his way. He's still doing a good job doing his part, but there is no team defense behind him.
It isn't either team defense or individual defense. You can do both ... and the Spurs have three rings to prove that.
You are usually very good with stats, so I'm guessing you didn't consult the stats before you posted that.
1) His turnovers are down even though he is handling the ball more and playing more minutes.
2) He's done a good job in "developing the corner three as a weapon", especially considering he's shooting at a career-high clip. And that's including like an 0-for-12 streak after the switch back to the old ball.
3) Bowen is shooting the three-pointer more than ever and shooting two-pointers less than ever. He's shooting .089 two-pointers per minute, which is nearly half of the rate of just a couple years ago. And this year for the first time, he's shooting more three-pointers than two-pointers.
4) His free-throw percentage has always sucked ... but it doesn't really effect much, seeing as he goes to the line only every other game.
5) His ballhandling nowadays is much, much better than just a couple years ago. Him being able to bring the ball up has made it impossible to have success against the Spurs' starting lineup using a fullcourt press.
You are preaching to the choir on that. I've always criticized Bowen for his lack of rebounding. But the Spurs used to have enough rebounders to overcome that. Now they don't. Is that Bowen's fault or the fault of the team for not putting any quality rebounders on the court?
In 2005, Bowen played damn well against Carmelo Anthony, Ray Allen, Shawn Marion and Richard Hamilton. Without Bowen shutting down those guys, the Spurs don't win the championship. I don't think you need me to go back and show how much he held down those players compared to when they played other teams.
timvp, I'm curious as to what Bruce's +/- per 100 possessions was in 2001-02. The team looked hopelessly lost without him when he got hurt that year.
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